Sex and gender in ASoIaF

[kimim]

I think that it would be best if you got rid of stuff like "feminine-masculine thinking," as wtf is that, anyway?

Having said that, it's true that there are many women in the series who are presented favorably to the audience because, among other things, they are rebelling, deliberately trying to look-act male. It's also true that there are no males who are presented favorably because they are rebelling, deliberately trying to look-act female. Sam, imo, does not qualify. He wishes he were not male simply in order to save his life, but it's not a choice in the way that Brienne's wearing armor is a choice.

Which is totally like our world. How many women are proud to confess that they were tomboys, didn't like frilly dresses or the color pink, loved being athletic, loved playing with swords, and how many men are willing to confess to preferring stereotypically feminine behavior, like pretty dresses, dolls, the color pink? Being female is considered inferior. Therefore, stereotypically feminine things are inferior. Deliberately adopting them when you don't need to weakens you, especially if you're male. A girl can get away with it, but even then it could be a sign of inferiority: Compare GRRM's early portrayal of Sansa, with her "I'm ever so pleased to meet you!" with Arya's far more positive, straightforward, athletic behavior.

So GRRM is a product of his culture. Big whoop.

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

30 minutes ago, Moving Watch said:

But the same is true for noble girls like Arya or Brienne. Neither of them was encouraged to learn swordfighting, and we know how Catelyn and Septa Mordane were badgering the "wayward" tomboy about behaving more "ladylike". Nevertheless they followed their hearts. However we don't even meet a scolarly inclined girl or woman - except of Sarella Sand, if she really is Alleras, that's true enough.

Yes, that's true, though it might have been interseting if the author had chosen to explore the difficulties of a scolarly inclined lady in this world. (Sarella does not count that much either because as a Sand Snake she had the priviledge of an anti conformist upbringing).

While there are mentions of well read "historical" female figures (Elaeana Targaryen being one, if I'm not mistaken) we do not see an equivalent of Tyrion, or of the Reader, or even of a young Hoster Blackwood. I suppose that it can be explained by the very nature of their society, that's mainly martial and "academic" skills are not really valued; that means a minority of men choose to take that route (although it's an acceptable path for them) so it should be expected that even fewer woman would be interested in following this path (that's not an acceptable path for them anyway).

 

ETA,

13 minutes ago, kimim said:

So GRRM is a product of his culture. Big whoop.

that too.

The author makes some slips in his characterizations, using stereotypes (not in a good way) to emphasize on some aspects. Like, being bad in "sums" is used to drive home the point that Sansa is a "girly girl".

[Moving Watch]

1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

If there is a scholarly inclined woman, it is less likely that we would encounter them in the story, for they would spend a lot of time in their home castle's library. We only meet Rodrik because he is a powerful lord and Sam because his father forces him to leave for the NW. Keep their interests the same but make them women and we'd probably never come across them in the story.

Ok, that's a point... But again we could hear of them from someone's POV, something like "she remembered her freakish sister spending most of her time in the castle's library..."

No, I don't complain, ultimately it's Martin's story - and one of the best I ever read! It just struck me that all those "rebellious" girls seem to prefer the athletic path which could lead us to the conclusion that being a tomboy is the only way of breaking out the female role stereotype.

[Moving Watch]

1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

While there are mentions of well read "historical" female figures (Elaeana Targaryen being one, if I'm not mistaken) we do not see an equivalent of Tyrion, or of the Reader, or even of a young Hoster Blackwood.

True enough. Alas, TWOIAF isn't available in my local library, so I didn't get the occasion yet to learn more about the history.

1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I suppose that it can be explained by the very nature of their society, that's mainly martial and "academic" skills are not really valued; that means a minority of men choose to take that route (although it's an acceptable path for them) so it should be expected that even fewer woman would be interested in following this path (that's not an acceptable path for them anyway).

Excellent point! I think that's the answer.

[shizett]

8 hours ago, Moving Watch said:

What did strike me most of all in the books, is the lack of of dominant Crone and Smith role models in women. We have a couple of women breaking out of the roles expected of them, first of all Arya, Asha and Brienne. For me, it’s not the point whether they wish to be men or are behaving like men, but what they are inclined and gifted to do.

I am not in complete agreement with this. I think Catelyn has more of Crone and Smith in her than mother or maiden and while she is repeatedly acknowledged as an impressive woman, she is never specifically noted to be pushing gender boundaries. She clearly understands politics, war tactics, human psychology, and negotiating techniques. She regularly sits in Robb's war meetings and is assigned to negotiate Robb's most important negotiations. No one ever mocks her performance in those roles, quite unlike Brienne or Arya. So, while Arya and Brienne are clearly pushing gender boundaries, Catelyn isn't. If I'm asked to describe Catelyn in 10 words, nurturing or compassionate will not make the list, whereas knowledgeable, strong, brave, and tough (hardworking) will be at the top of the list.

I think the same can be said about Queen of Thorns and maybe Sam's mom. QoT has a say in what is happening in Tyrell family (not to the TV degree, but enough to grant her a Crone and Smith status). Sam remembers her mom listening to his books while sewing (or whatever).

We of course have Missandei and Waif too, none of which are from Westeros, but are still part of the main characters of story (not just name drops), and they both exhibit scholarly inclinations. Even Arya, who is always noted to be a warrior, spends most of her time leaning languages, potions, and learning/understanding Bravos history and politics. She never complains about it or states her preference for doing something more active.

Also, I think old Nan (and to some degree Osha and Ygritt) can be said to have strong crone qualities. They might not be "bookish", but all of them have extensive knowledge of oral history of their region. Almost all the folk stories we've heard in story come from these women. Val and Dalla seem to be healers in addition to being part of the governing body of their own people.

[shizett]

3 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

The author makes some slips in his characterizations, using stereotypes (not in a good way) to emphasize on some aspects. Like, being bad in "sums" is used to drive home the point that Sansa is a "girly girl".

It's interesting you say this, as I had completely opposite impression about this. Arya mentions her ability in math while considering qualities that make her "feminine" as being capable in math contributes to her ability in managing a household. I always understood it as the author's nod to the difficulty of having a lady's "job" in that society, that while the society expects women to maintain beauty and sweetness (which Sansa wrongly believes to be all there is to be a lady), it also expects the lady of a castle to be able to act as the lord of the castle in absence of the said lord (and all that might happen in that time period) in addition to manage a household while the said lord is also present.

[BlueNightzx]

Gender roles derives from biology, and not purely from cultural bias
there is nos logical reason or purpose, for the sex that can generate life, and nurture children, and is physically weaker, to be  the gender that  acts on martial affairs, on wars, fighting, hunting, etc

furthermore, there is no logical reason for the physically superior gender, to desert the role of fighting, war and so on.

the relationship between men and women are symbiotic, the "Box" that you say, is our modern times society perception of the matter, a feudal society, which life and death and survival is much more urgent than ours, the roles are more "Primal", than our society, that by technology and sophisticated social systems, allows men and women to exchange their roles and act in any way they see fit, but the same is not true in older, more cruder times and social systems.

Cersei wants to be a man because she is Rich, the same as brienne, they see the captains, the generals, their powerfull fathers and want this kind of power to themselves, but being a man in a feudal society is much more about being exposed to violence, soul crushing labor and every kind of humiliation and danger., not that the same could not be said of peasant women, but no at the same level as men. you can see this on the way ramsey acts with theon and jeyne poole, as horrible as the actions of ramsey with jeyne poole are, she is not utterly mutilated and exposed to brutal violence as theon was.

in the great social and political scheme, a woman who embraces her femininity, and uses it to enforce a political agenda, like dany, or catelyn, are much more effective and with bigger results, than the ones who tries to emulate men as brienne and asha.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

54 minutes ago, shizett said:

It's interesting you say this, as I had completely opposite impression about this. Arya mentions her ability in math while considering qualities that make her "feminine" as being capable in math contributes to her ability in managing a household. I always understood it as the author's nod to the difficulty of having a lady's "job" in that society, that while the society expects women to maintain beauty and sweetness (which Sansa wrongly believes to be all there is to be a lady), it also expects the lady of a castle to be able to act as the lord of the castle in absence of the said lord (and all that might happen in that time period) in addition to manage a household while the said lord is also present.

On the contrary... the context is the comparaison of Arya's and Sansa's performance in womanly skills; the only two skills in which Arya does better are, quite strikingly, the "less feminine" ones.

(I use quotation marks because I strongly disagree with the notion that these particular skills, and especially math, are less feminine. However, there actually exists such a stereotyope, which is "backed up" by statistical data. Of course there are --well researched, nowadays-- societal reasons that explain the data, but in the past it was a "truth" that women are not, supposedly "by nature", as adept at math and science as men; that those who were, were regarded as "exceptional" and not always meant in a good way; as if, they were less feminine because of it.)

Also, apparently, these two skills are the least important in a woman's education: case in point, no one makes a fuss over Sansa's bad performance in math; Sansa herself admits that she's terrible just casually, no big deal. (Horseriding for the ladies would IMO correspond to today's driving: you're fine as long as you can do it, no one expects you to race. For men would be different though, as good horseriding skills are a very important and integral aspect of knighthood: chivalry <- cheval = horse.)

[shizett]

2 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

On the contrary... the context is the comparaison of Arya's and Sansa's prformance in womanly skills; the only two skills in which Arya does better are, quite strikingly, the "less feminine" ones.

Oh, I got your point, I was just pointing out that "girls being bad at math" is part of our prejudice(today and historically) and not one presented in story. As you mentioned yourself, Arya considers math to be a "womanly" skill.

I mainly agree with everything else you say (and I do agree with the point you are making in general), other than:

4 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

case in point, no one makes a fuss over Sansa's bad performance in math; Sansa herself admits that she's terrible just casually, no big deal.

While no one ever mentions Sansa's poor math skills, people keep mentioning that "she has no thoughts in her pretty head" and generally do not recognize her as a smart character (in-world).

The point I am trying to make is that while women's ability in more serious things is never discussed explicitly, we witness characters measure women on those qualities and adjust their behavior. The reason I brought up Catelyn and QoT is because both these women do somewhat walk on the border of accepted gender roles and are almost unanimously admired for it. I think that says something about values of the society too.

[Moving Watch]

20 minutes ago, shizett said:

I am not in complete agreement with this. I think Catelyn has more of Crone and Smith in her than mother or maiden and while she is repeatedly acknowledged as an impressive woman, she is never specifically noted to be pushing gender boundaries. She clearly understands politics, war tactics, human psychology, and negotiating techniques. She regularly sits in Robb's war meetings and is assigned to negotiate Robb's most important negotiations. No one ever mocks her performance in those roles, quite unlike Brienne or Arya. So, while Arya and Brienne are clearly pushing gender boundaries, Catelyn isn't. If I'm asked to describe Catelyn in 10 words, nurturing or compassionate will not make the list, whereas knowledgeable, strong, brave, and tough (hardworking) will be at the top of the list.

I think the same can be said about Queen of Thorns and maybe Sam's mom. QoT has a say in what is happening in Tyrell family (not to the TV degree, but enough to grant her a Crone and Smith status). Sam remembers her mom listening to his books while sewing (or whatever).

We of course have Missandei and Waif too, none of which are from Westeros, but are still part of the main characters of story (not just name drops), and they both exhibit scholarly inclinations. Even Arya, who is always noted to be a warrior, spends most of her time leaning languages, potions, and learning/understanding Bravos history and politics. She never complains about it or states her preference for doing something more active.

Also, I think old Nan (and to some degree Osha and Ygritt) can be said to have strong crone qualities. They might not be "bookish", but all of them have extensive knowledge of oral history of their region. Almost all the folk stories we've heard in story come from these women. Val and Dalla seem to be healers in addition to being part of the governing body of their own people.

I can agree with you about the Crone qualities of some elder women, like Cat or Olenna, though I can't remember reading about Lady Tarly in the novel. Btw - what means QoT? 

The Smith though in my understanding is more about craftsmanship, like construction, artisan craftwork, trade, gardening, cooking etc. I don't think that noble ladies did things like that - apart from embroidering which wasn't meant to have any special practical use. Catelyn - hardworking? Yeah, she rides around, talks, negiotates, counsels, but when I think of a hardworking woman, I see a farmer rather or a servant or a nurse...

Missandei and the Waif do fit my picture, that's right, I just forgot about them. But regarding Arya I have my objections: While, as a matter of fact, she does everything in order to succeed, never complaining, it's absolutely not in her nature to read or learn languages. She had a hard time doing it (and a terrible accent for a long time^^). 

Old Nan, Osha and Ygritte are quite another matter. In olden times, prior to the invention of printing, oral memory was vital for the survival the mundane and spiritual tradition, so you could find such a tale-teller in nearly every household or village. A woman telling stories was a common figure. Healing wasn't a male domain either, especially when it comes to herbal lore.

What I meant was a female equivalent to Sam, Tyrion or Rodrik Harlaw - and did find some of them in the end: Sarella Sand, Missandei, and the Waif, to begin with, and even a genuine female artist in Duskendale (or was it Maidenpool?)... Hence it is not so bad as it looked.   

[ShadowCat Rivers]

23 minutes ago, shizett said:

Oh, I got your point, I was just pointing out that "girls being bad at math" is part of our prejudice(today and historically) and not one presented in story. As you mentioned yourself, Arya considers math to be a "womanly" skill.

My take is that the author makes use here of this particular stereotype. And not necessarily as a conscious choice.

[shizett]

3 minutes ago, Moving Watch said:

what means QoT?

Queen of Thorns

3 minutes ago, Moving Watch said:

The Smith though in my understanding is more about craftsmanship, like construction, artisan craftwork, trade, gardening, cooking etc. I don't think that noble ladies did things like that - apart from embroidering which wasn't meant to have any special practical use. Catelyn - hardworking? Yeah, she rides around, talks, negiotates, counsels, but when I think of a hardworking woman, I see a farmer rather or a servant or a nurse...

Oh I see. I meant to emphasize on Catelyn's crafting of deals. That is why I said I see a smith, she might not be physically working, but she is crafting a kingdom. Wouldn't you agree?

5 minutes ago, Moving Watch said:

But regarding Arya I have my objections: While, as a matter of fact, she does everything in order to succeed, never complaining, it's absolutely not in her nature to read or learn languages. She had a hard time doing it (and a terrible accent for a long time^^). 

I see. Well, Arya has been in Braavos for how long? less than two years I guess and she can already speak the language well enough, I find that OK, not at all underwhelming.  I specifically mentioned Arya as a comparison to Tyrion, since both of them get a good education as a matter of necessity, rather than pure scholarly inclinations. Tyrion does not necessarily want to read (his dream is to travel and see the world), he only does so because that is the only thing available to him that he can succeed in. As per her memories, Arya spent hours listening to his father's men talk about mundane/technical details of their jobs and was "underfoot" in some of the workshops (like Mikken's).

6 minutes ago, Moving Watch said:

Old Nan, Osha and Ygritte are quite another matter. In olden times, prior to the invention of printing, oral memory was vital for the survival the mundane and spiritual tradition, so you could find such a tale-teller in nearly every household or village. A woman telling stories was a common figure. Healing wasn't a male domain either, especially when it comes to herbal lore.

I was just pointing out that these women have a role in maintaining and learning of both their history and medicine. They might not be comparable to Sam, but they are qualitatively different from other people around them, as listening to stories with details and keeping mental record of herbal medicine still requires both attention and practice.

11 minutes ago, Moving Watch said:

What I meant was a female equivalent to Sam, Tyrion or Rodrik Harlaw - and did find some of them in the end: Sarella Sand, Missandei, and the Waif, to begin with, and even a genuine female artist in Duskendale (or was it Maidenpool?)... Hence it is not so bad as it looked.   

I think I am not very clear on your meaning (which is probably why some of my answers do not make sense to you). I was saying that the women I mentioned above show an interest in learning and in the world around them (even if that knowledge is not useful in the foreseeable future) and make an effort to acquire that knowledge. In the same vein, I would include Bran in the males too, as he does not just want to be a knight only for love of fighting, but to travel and acquire knowledge. By reducing human thirst for knowledge to a small group of people who prefer to do it in a library, one loses sight of many other forms of scholarly characters.  Did I get it right this time?

[Little Scribe of Naath]

9 hours ago, kimim said:

I think that it would be best if you got rid of stuff like "feminine-masculine thinking," as wtf is that, anyway?

Having said that, it's true that there are many women in the series who are presented favorably to the audience because, among other things, they are rebelling, deliberately trying to look-act male. It's also true that there are no males who are presented favorably because they are rebelling, deliberately trying to look-act female. Sam, imo, does not qualify. He wishes he were not male simply in order to save his life, but it's not a choice in the way that Brienne's wearing armor is a choice.

Which is totally like our world. How many women are proud to confess that they were tomboys, didn't like frilly dresses or the color pink, loved being athletic, loved playing with swords, and how many men are willing to confess to preferring stereotypically feminine behavior, like pretty dresses, dolls, the color pink? Being female is considered inferior. Therefore, stereotypically feminine things are inferior. Deliberately adopting them when you don't need to weakens you, especially if you're male. A girl can get away with it, but even then it could be a sign of inferiority: Compare GRRM's early portrayal of Sansa, with her "I'm ever so pleased to meet you!" with Arya's far more positive, straightforward, athletic behavior.

So GRRM is a product of his culture. Big whoop.

 

Not only that, this is also reflected in big love story of the books -  Rhaegar, the perfect prince and hero who was wanted by every woman, chooses Lyanna (who exactly fits the archetype of the rebellious, pursuing traditionally male activites, etc.) over the gentle, motherly and frail Elia who can't or doesn't want to do these things. Granted, we still have to get the full story, but at the end of the day Lyanna died a legendary beauty and feisty heroine figure over whom two men fought a war, and poor Elia.....tragic, inadequate and forgotten.

This contrast is made even more glaring with the whole KOTLT story which most likely is what impresses Rhaegar - she chooses to take up a traditionally male activity (jousting) to save the honor of a guy who can't do so. It's a great gesture, undoubtedly, but the way it's presented, it rather seems like it's a more "worthy" thing to do than  Elia's own battle to give birth to Rhaegar's child. (and being bedridden for 6 months for her efforts).

ETA: Having said that, however, Martin still does a really good job at showcasing many different kinds of female characters, with their own unique strengths and weaknesses and how they use that to survive their society.

[Lord Varys]

If we are attributing masculine and feminine labels to qualities of character then I'd like to point that Eddard Stark is much more feminine than he looks from the outside.

- He is the less decisive, timid part of the relationship who has to persuaded by Catelyn and Luwin to become active.

- He is the one who always first asks about the children.

- He is the one who is naturally a likable and approachable father who has to put on/play the role of a powerful manly lord.

- He is the one who betrays his manly honor to save the life of his daughter(s).

- He is the one who is mostly motivated by compassion for other people, including their children (even if those people are his enemies).

Not to mention that he is on the outside only a moderate swordsman, not exactly excelling as a manly man at arms.

Catelyn also has attributes of a woman, of course, but those are more forced on her by society. Her natural impulses are much more masculine. Considering the fact that Westerosi society is even more misogynistic than ours it is clear that Catelyn has to keep her masculine tendencies in check - she often chides people about their mistakes in her mind without ever attacking them directly because she has learned and internalized that women aren't allowed to do that to me.

In Ned's case his latent feminine characteristics don't trigger the same reactions from other people. As long as he functions as a lord and is seen as a manly man in public everything is fine.

As to Loras - who has been mentioned as a man depicting more feminine qualities above: I agree that he is depicted in a way that could be seen as somewhat effeminate, especially with all the flowers and colors and stuff, but that is actually part of medieval chivalric culture. George spends a lot of time describing clothes of people, not just those of the more colorful characters. In the context of the setting I'd see both Renly and Loras as masculine men. Both participate in tourneys in a manly way, show very masculine nonchalance towards mortal danger (Renly, when his neck seems broken after he fell from a horse, cracking his antler helm), and act as only hotheaded young warriors can (Loras, repeatedly).

Even the kind of mad rage and grief Loras shows after Renly's death is a masculine trait if you compare it to Achilles' grief for Patroclus.

And while we are at the whole gay thing already:

Jon Connington also seems to have more masculine than feminine traits. He is drawn to Rhaegar (and presumably other men) because of their (feminine) beauty. There are strong hints that Rhaegar was beautiful in a more feminine/androgynous way than a down-to-earth masculine way. Connington at first confuses effeminate Lysono Maar with Rhaegar and is abhorred when he realizes his mistake, suggesting that Rhaegar's facial features resembles Rhaegar's rather strongly (unlikely if Rhaegar had, say, a strong masculine chin).

Not to mention that Connington seemed to sort of court Rhaegar the way a man/knight tries to impress a lady/princess. He showed off his father's lands and wealth priding himself that this all would be his one day ('See, Rhaegar, I'm a very strong guy with a lot of land who can protect and worship you all your life'). At Stoney Sept Connington thinks he failed Rhaegar as his champion. Had he crushed Robert there his precious Rhaegar would never have been forced to take the burden on himself to fight at the Trident.

In regards to the Dornish characters we have to keep in mind that Arianne is a much more comfortable position with her feminine traits considering that her society acknowledges her as the future Princes of Dorne. Considering the different rules there Dornishwomen should feel considerably less pressure to speak their mind and behave the way they feel without facing a lot of repercussions. Especially not the ruling class of Dorne.

A Martell girl should be able to behave as manly as she feels like, just as a boy might be allowed to be more reserved and feminine. Doran Martell isn't exactly a very martial and decisive leader yet it is still clear that he is very much in charge of his land. And historically a woman like Meria Martell was very much larger than life and completely in charge of everything in her lands despite the fact that she was very old and blind.

[kimim]

12 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Not only that, this is also reflected in big love story of the books -  Rhaegar, the perfect prince and hero who was wanted by every woman, chooses Lyanna (who exactly fits the archetype of the rebellious, pursuing traditionally male activites, etc.) over the gentle, motherly and frail Elia who can't or doesn't want to do these things. Granted, we still have to get the full story, but at the end of the day Lyanna died a legendary beauty and feisty heroine figure over whom two men fought a war, and poor Elia.....tragic, inadequate and forgotten.

This contrast is made even more glaring with the whole KOTLT story which most likely is what impresses Rhaegar - she chooses to take up a traditionally male activity (jousting) to save the honor of a guy who can't do so. It's a great gesture, undoubtedly, but the way it's presented, it rather seems like it's a more "worthy" thing to do than  Elia's own battle to give birth to Rhaegar's child. (and being bedridden for 6 months for her efforts).

ETA: Having said that, however, Martin still does a really good job at showcasing many different kinds of female characters, with their own unique strengths and weaknesses and how they use that to survive their society.

How could I forget Lyanna. Very true. Yes, a "feisty" young woman (they're almost always young) who takes on the glamorized male role is a very positive figure, gets the prince lol. On the other hand, she could turn into a child soldier (Arya) in which case it's more problematic. However, accepting tradition does not inevitably strip women of all power.

When it comes to power, the only groups who can wield it are the upper classes. Compared to early-modern England, there are few institutions that limit the power of women in these groups. There are few laws that take away their right to own property, though primogeniture limits inheritance. Knighthood, NW and the Citadel are the other exceptions. There's no suffrage for men only, no elected roles where only men are eligible, no juries where only men might take part, no guilds where only men might represent their crafts and form the gov't of a city.

The noble families compete as families, not via male-only clubs like political parties. In so far as women are part of these families, they can be powerful. Cat, Joanna, Olenna accept their traditional roles, determine the fate of their families, and they are positive characters. Dany is obviously meant to be a very positive figure, possibly the most powerful figure in the novels, and she is never shown wearing armor or carrying a sword. Cersei is a mess, not because she wants to be Tywin with tits, but because she is an ignorant sociopath. Lysa is pathetic, not because she is the lady of the Vale but because, obviously, she is terrible human being.

Then there are the commoners, where male-female splits fall apart. In this world, if you're born a commoner, you might as well hang yourself before reaching puberty, as you will be raped/starved/frozen/worked to death if female, and killed/starved/frozen/worked to death, if male. Women may be killed and men may be raped, of course, so little other than death in childbirth or being pressed into a noble's army or navy is a gender-specific horror for 99.9999999% of the inhabitants of Westeros.

 

 

 

[John Doe]

People who feel like they are born the wrong sex are incredibly uncommen, and Martin only has like, two dozen POV characters. I don't think it's a surprise that we don't encounter them in asoiaf...

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, kimim said:

When it comes to power, the only groups who can wield it are the upper classes. Compared to early-modern England, there are few institutions that limit the power of women in these groups. There are few laws that take away their right to own property, though primogeniture limits inheritance. Knighthood, NW and the Citadel are the other exceptions. There's no suffrage for men only, no elected roles where only men are eligible, no juries where only men might take part, no guilds where only men might represent their crafts and form the gov't of a city.

But women cannot really be craftsmen or have jobs in Westeros, or can they? Aside from Chataya owning a brothel I don't remember a woman having her own business. Sure, there are female servants, scullions, cooks, washerwomen, camp followers, etc. but there is no hint that women could have respectable professions in their own right in Westeros.

21 hours ago, kimim said:

The noble families compete as families, not via male-only clubs like political parties. In so far as women are part of these families, they can be powerful. Cat, Joanna, Olenna accept their traditional roles, determine the fate of their families, and they are positive characters. Dany is obviously meant to be a very positive figure, possibly the most powerful figure in the novels, and she is never shown wearing armor or carrying a sword. Cersei is a mess, not because she wants to be Tywin with tits, but because she is an ignorant sociopath. Lysa is pathetic, not because she is the lady of the Vale but because, obviously, she is terrible human being.

Not sure if Joanna accepted her traditional. The very fact that people gossiped that she ruled Lord Tywin is evidence to the contrary. A woman should not rule her husband in a world like Westeros, neither openly nor secretly.

Women play a complimentary role in the noble game. As a lord you have to have a lady wife birthing your heirs. But that's it, really, women aren't supposed to be anything more than the noble housewife and the mother of the children. They only step to the fore if things happen that are not supposed to happen but nevertheless do happen. Meaning they may take charge when the husband gets sick, dies early, is imprisoned during a war, or otherwise absent. They can also rule or manage affairs in the name of their minor sons but that's really it. Nobody prepares them or accept them to it. Some women can do it or allowed to do it, others are pushed by powerful men of the family or vassals of their husbands.

21 hours ago, kimim said:

Then there are the commoners, where male-female splits fall apart. In this world, if you're born a commoner, you might as well hang yourself before reaching puberty, as you will be raped/starved/frozen/worked to death if female, and killed/starved/frozen/worked to death, if male. Women may be killed and men may be raped, of course, so little other than death in childbirth or being pressed into a noble's army or navy is a gender-specific horror for 99.9999999% of the inhabitants of Westeros.

I'm pretty sure there is a decent chance you will be raped as boy/man as well just as there is a good chance that women are killed after they have been raped.

You overlook the fact that female commoners are completely at the mercy of their fathers, brothers, and husbands. While the average male peasant only has to fear to be abused by the next (noble)man with a weapon the average peasant woman is an ideal position to become a victim of the abuse from her (step-)father, brother, cousin, neighbor, or husband from the moment of her birth.

TWoIaF confirms to us that husbands are entitled to beat their wives and we see that they do so with impunity even after Queen Rhaenys established the Rule of Six. Merry Meg, a mistress of Aegon the Unworthy, was beaten to death by her peasant husband after she was returned to him.

[HoodedCrow]

I think we are supposed to mix it up.

Jaime has a submissive role with Cersei. He submits to some rules and not others. Isn't inconsistency "female"? He's moody. He rescues Brienne, and Tyrion. He is sometimes reckless, emotional, and is not known as a scholar. He is cynical but conflicted with idealism. He is abused, but loves his little brother.

Edmure is ambiguous. 

Jorah makes mistakes for love. He takes a lot of garbage. In another character, one would see it differently.

If littlefinger were female, you could see him as a scheming villainess.

Tommen is pretty sweet, regardless of gender. Kittens!

Sweetrobin would be a write off, if he were a girl. His status is mainly due to his gender.

Hotpie is not very manly.

Varys could be female, except for his role in the times.

Jon Snow, knows nothing, and has to be taught!

 

[kimim]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But women cannot really be craftsmen or have jobs in Westeros, or can they?

That's a good question. There are so few merchants and craftspeople involved in the story that it's hard to know; women can obviously be innkeeps along with brothel owners. The woman who paints Brienne's shield in Duskendale owns her business.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure if Joanna accepted her traditional. The very fact that people gossiped that she ruled Lord Tywin is evidence to the contrary. A woman should not rule her husband in a world like Westeros, neither openly nor secretly.

I'm not sure about this. Tywin is obsessed with being feared and respected, yet apparently he had a happy marriage in which his wife was known to wield a great deal of influence. If this were a shocking or terrible thing, you'd think Tywin of all people would have stopped it, but apparently he didn't. You'd also think that Joanna would have hurt Tywin somehow, made him seem less fearful, less powerful, but again, that doesn't seem to have happened.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Women play a complimentary role in the noble game. As a lord you have to have a lady wife birthing your heirs. But that's it, really, women aren't supposed to be anything more than the noble housewife and the mother of the children. They only step to the fore if things happen that are not supposed to happen but nevertheless do happen.

I agree. Women are definitely the less privileged gender on Westeros. However, I think the situation is more complex. Westeros is different than our world, obviously. A "mother"or a "housewife" in our society has no influence outside of her family, and even that is limited. However, if that family is the equivalent of a political party or the executive branch of a state, then that housewife or mother is more powerful than her title makes her out to be. You can see a that with Olenna, Marg, and Sansa. Olenna and Marg arrange a marriage between Willas and Sansa. In doing so, they arrange to bring the North under Tyrell influence. It's a huge thing, yet it's done as part of a nice, "feminine" tea party with lemon cakes and musicians.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You overlook the fact that female commoners are completely at the mercy of their fathers, brothers, and husbands. While the average male peasant only has to fear to be abused by the next (noble)man with a weapon the average peasant woman is an ideal position to become a victim of the abuse from her (step-)father, brother, cousin, neighbor, or husband from the moment of her birth.

Again, I completely agree. With women, we're adding an extra level of horror into an already horrific situation.

[BlueNightzx]

3 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

I think we are supposed to mix it up.

Jaime has a submissive role with Cersei. He submits to some rules and not others. Isn't inconsistency "female"? He's moody. He rescues Brienne, and Tyrion. He is sometimes reckless, emotional, and is not known as a scholar. He is cynical but conflicted with idealism. He is abused, but loves his little brother.

Edmure is ambiguous. 

Jorah makes mistakes for love. He takes a lot of garbage. In another character, one would see it differently.

If littlefinger were female, you could see him as a scheming villainess.

Tommen is pretty sweet, regardless of gender. Kittens!

Sweetrobin would be a write off, if he were a girl. His status is mainly due to his gender.

Hotpie is not very manly.

Varys could be female, except for his role in the times.

Jon Snow, knows nothing, and has to be taught!

 

you may be mixing up book jaime with tv jaime
book jaime is very pro active, and not a least submissive to cersei, he often denies her, and often forces his will upon her, you can say that cersei somewhat manipulated him, and that was true in the past, but being manipulated by a person you love is very different from being submissive.