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Sex and gender in ASoIaF


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11 hours ago, kimim said:

That's a good question. There are so few merchants and craftspeople involved in the story that it's hard to know; women can obviously be innkeeps along with brothel owners. The woman who paints Brienne's shield in Duskendale owns her business.

Oh, right, I've forgotten about that. In Tanselle's family women also feature prominently, although I'm not sure whether her uncle or her grandmother is the boss. But then, they are from Dorne, anyway.

11 hours ago, kimim said:

I'm not sure about this. Tywin is obsessed with being feared and respected, yet apparently he had a happy marriage in which his wife was known to wield a great deal of influence. If this were a shocking or terrible thing, you'd think Tywin of all people would have stopped it, but apparently he didn't. You'd also think that Joanna would have hurt Tywin somehow, made him seem less fearful, less powerful, but again, that doesn't seem to have happened.

Well, not if Tywin was under the thumb of his beloved wife. If she was wearing the pants then she would have been the one person he could not possibly do anything about. I mean, he loved her, right?

11 hours ago, kimim said:

I agree. Women are definitely the less privileged gender on Westeros. However, I think the situation is more complex. Westeros is different than our world, obviously. A "mother"or a "housewife" in our society has no influence outside of her family, and even that is limited. However, if that family is the equivalent of a political party or the executive branch of a state, then that housewife or mother is more powerful than her title makes her out to be. You can see a that with Olenna, Marg, and Sansa. Olenna and Marg arrange a marriage between Willas and Sansa. In doing so, they arrange to bring the North under Tyrell influence. It's a huge thing, yet it's done as part of a nice, "feminine" tea party with lemon cakes and musicians.

Sure, but that is all dependent on the men allowing the women to participate in the game. As a lord I can ask my wife before making a political decision or I can send her into the kitchen or her rooms and only consult with my male buddies. Just ask yourself how much say Lady Melessa Florent Tarly has in her household. I imagine nothing at all.

The same goes for the Tyrells as well. Olenna Redwyne is not really running things there. She is scheming behind the scenes and her son is doing nothing about that. Olenna claims that she was against the 'King Renly' idea. If that's true then she could not stop Mace and Loras from implementing that idea. That shows how much power she actually has. And we also have no idea whether she favored the Joffrey-Margaery match, already planning to murder him, or whether she wasn't so keen on the whole thing and only decided the boy had to go because she could not prevent the marriage.

By the way, Ned and Robert arrange the match between Sansa and Joffrey without ever consulting their respective wives. That's pretty telling.

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Well Bluenightzx, Jaime is not a submissive per se, but certainly is very manipulatable to Cersei plans and wants. Jaime is the one who wants to get married. As children, they swap clothing. Later on, Jaime is rescued by Brienne in full Errol Flynn mode and then recues her. I think there is some role swapping.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As a lord I can ask my wife before making a political decision or I can send her into the kitchen or her rooms and only consult with my male buddies. Just ask yourself how much say Lady Melessa Florent Tarly has in her household. I imagine nothing at all.

The same goes for the Tyrells as well. Olenna Redwyne is not really running things there. She is scheming behind the scenes and her son is doing nothing about that. Olenna claims that she was against the 'King Renly' idea. If that's true then she could not stop Mace and Loras from implementing that idea. That shows how much power she actually has.

I am not disagreeing that women are less powerful than men in this society. That they are subservient, secondary is obvious. However, due to the primitive nature of the society, power is based on the family, which makes life unpredictable. If the husband dies before the wife, she rules until the heir comes of age. If her relationship with the heir is healthy, she can continue to have a say in the running of that family and of the region the family controls. She can do this, not because she's elected into office, but because she is the mother of the heir and the wife of the lord. Of course a lord can send his wife away, and decide on things on his own; Tarly is a very good example. However, if Tarly dies in war or of natural causes then the wife takes over until the son comes of age.

Which is why family relationships are an important part of the game: The Starks are a pack, a functioning power base thanks to good parenting by Cat and Ned, and that will give them an edge in the last two novels (imo). That Lannisters are a dysfunctional mess has consequences beyond the immediate family. When Tyrion kills his father as a result of a long-running family tragedy, that's not just a personal thing. It carries national consequences. Ditto for Tywin's inability to figure out that his twins were fucking one another.

Olenna: I'm not saying that she rules the family like a tyrant, and the fact that she didn't get her way does not mean that she has no say. Olenna presumably made her opinion known, and her side lost. That doesn't mean she's powerless among the Tyrells.

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I think many people are underestimating the power of medieval women (the nobles, at least) in society. The image of the powerless damsel is largely a later (victorian) invention. Women were expected to manage the household, which is an important duty during peacetime. Just sending them to the kitchens would be pretty uncommen. It's also important to mention that the bride's family would be pretty angy to see their daughter being treated in such a manner. 

Of course the lord doesn't have to respect her opinion on anything, but this is true for all genders. A brother doesn't have necessariy more influence on her husband then a wife does. And a woman could rule as lady in her own right, even though women were most of the time disadvanteged by inheritance laws.  

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On 1.11.2016 at 0:22 AM, shizett said:

Queen of Thorns :D

Oh I see. I meant to emphasize on Catelyn's crafting of deals. That is why I said I see a smith, she might not be physically working, but she is crafting a kingdom. Wouldn't you agree?

I see. Well, Arya has been in Braavos for how long? less than two years I guess and she can already speak the language well enough, I find that OK, not at all underwhelming.  I specifically mentioned Arya as a comparison to Tyrion, since both of them get a good education as a matter of necessity, rather than pure scholarly inclinations. Tyrion does not necessarily want to read (his dream is to travel and see the world), he only does so because that is the only thing available to him that he can succeed in. As per her memories, Arya spent hours listening to his father's men talk about mundane/technical details of their jobs and was "underfoot" in some of the workshops (like Mikken's).

I was just pointing out that these women have a role in maintaining and learning of both their history and medicine. They might not be comparable to Sam, but they are qualitatively different from other people around them, as listening to stories with details and keeping mental record of herbal medicine still requires both attention and practice.

I think I am not very clear on your meaning (which is probably why some of my answers do not make sense to you). I was saying that the women I mentioned above show an interest in learning and in the world around them (even if that knowledge is not useful in the foreseeable future) and make an effort to acquire that knowledge. In the same vein, I would include Bran in the males too, as he does not just want to be a knight only for love of fighting, but to travel and acquire knowledge. By reducing human thirst for knowledge to a small group of people who prefer to do it in a library, one loses sight of many other forms of scholarly characters.  Did I get it right this time?

Sorry for the delayed reaction! During the week, there's few time for the forums. :)

I wouldn't like to discuss the matter as such anymore since in the end, I found what I was looking for, but I would surely like to clarify my point - it's good you were asking, for I see that it was a bit vague: I'm not about learning in general, because that's something everybody has to do in order to succeed. Even a knight has to learn, and so Arya is learning languages, potions etc., though she has a hard time doing so.

What I had in mind was rather talent, a natural inclination to do something, a passion or liking of sorts. When you look around amongst your relatives and friends, there's quite certainly some persons with rather physical inclinations as well as such with artistical or intellectual or, say, spiritual ones, and I'm sure not everyone is in a position to act it fully out even today.

My point was that in Westeros any girl or woman who is somehow inclined to overstep the rather narrow limits of her gender role shows up to be a badass in some way. I was just missing a girl thinking: "No, the role of the lady and mother or the nurse, that's not me, because I'm a thinker/an artist/a loner who loves to sit and contemplate..." - or something like that. Most certainly she would never be able to act it out in her life, but that's quite another cup of tea.

Did I make myself clearer now? :blush:   

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On 05/11/2016 at 0:15 PM, Moving Watch said:

My point was that in Westeros any girl or woman who is somehow inclined to overstep the rather narrow limits of her gender role shows up to be a badass in some way. I was just missing a girl thinking: "No, the role of the lady and mother or the nurse, that's not me, because I'm a thinker/an artist/a loner who loves to sit and contemplate..." - or something like that. Most certainly she would never be able to act it out in her life, but that's quite another cup of tea.

Did I make myself clearer now? :blush:   

Yes, you did. Thank you.

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I'm not sure that the ladies who follow martial pursuits are the ones who defy social and gender expectations in the most profound way. They are each in their own way, special cases.

Brienne is a consumate warrior with the physicallity and training to back it up, and with sincere and profound conviction about the ideals of chivalry. While this is a breach of her expected role is a very narrow. Despite being an heiress in her right she has no political aspirations, or any particular thpughts on the matter.

Asha in all aspects steps into the role of a man in her society. She is a captain, she can fight and aspires to be the ruler with the wherewithal to back it up. Yet she is part of a marginalized society, had her father's backing and an enlighted nuncle and was afforded the opportunity and support to assume that role.

Arya is a child and to a certain extent an indulged one. Long before her behavior led her to substantial conflict with her parents, they died and she found herself a homeless orphan. And then an apprentice assassin/priestess of a death cult. To say that she has stepped beyond the conventional considerations of her gender and class is an understatement.

By contrast Catelyn and Cersei attempt and succeed in exercising beyond the confines of their proscribed roles. Catelyn is a confident and adviser of her husband, undertakes dangerous missions to deliver messages, organizes an improptu guard to arrest Tyrion. Even after she cedes her authority as regent to Robb she remains his chief negotiator and among his closest advisors, commands repsect and authority by mere presence alone in Riverrun and goes so far as to commit treason when she deems something necessary be done. Cersei basically does everything she possibly can to grab and hold on to power and despite being bad at it she temporarily succeeds.

And then there is Dany who basically obliterates any gender stereotype in terms of power. She is a conqueror, as absolute a ruler as we get in ASoIaF with near mythical standing among her followers. A major religious group has actually claimed her as the messiah. And she does it all by being a girly girl, a wife and a mother.

In terms of power transcending gender roles lies more in wielding armies than wielding swords.

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Some thoughts on issues brought up by the discussion so far.

I consider the Seven a bit of trap. Their potential symbolism is far too broad and I think their conception was more about establishing a familiar and seamingly plausible religious dogma than how they would be reflected in society. Still because of their broadness they are good choice as they can be and were molded along the way. In this instance, whether by accident or design, there are some good parallels to be drawn. One thing that one notices about the seven is that while the male aspects describes social roles (I'm thinking that the Father is interchangeable with Lord) the female aspects are basically stages in a woman's life. It is also interesting that from the male aspects the only one that is explicitely sexualized is the Father. He is the font of all authority and how the blood continues. The Warrior is how that authority is defended (or enforced) and the Smith is the subject of that authority along with the females, if we exrapolate him to be representative of the productive members of society. This forms a basic blueprint of feudalist society, which probably was part of the thinking behind the conception of the Seven. It also creates a division for the male characters, which are without exception among the nobility, between lords, heirs and all the rest.

Academic are of interest because it finds no representation among the seven, like there are no bards, or mummers. You could shoehorn traders to the Smith but it is really not a good fit. Maesters are not just scholars, they apply their knowledge. They could be seen as fulfilling the role of the Crone, as being sexless (in terms of having no name or family) advisers and tutors, but they are also healers and they run the rookeries, which would make them fall toward the achetype of the Smith. Regardless, they serve and shed their family names, when they have them. One could think that as there is an official role for Grand Maester, that knowledge is appreciated, but I think it has more to do with the influence of the Citadel, which has apparently monopolized scholarship in Westeros with the exception of Septons tending libraries.

The male characters who demonstrate an interest in academia are: Tyrion and Sam, from the POV's and Maester Aemon, Rodrick Harlow and Hoster Blackwood. Tyrion is basically a throwaway second son and the embarassment of his family, Sam went through abuse, Aemon was a third son of a fourth son who was sent to the Citadel over the strenuous objections of his father specifically to eliminate him as future potential political liability, the Reader is the second most powerful lord in the Iron Islands and anything but a pushover who gets to do whatever he wants in his spare time but still gets derided for it and Hos the hostage is third or fourth son who is something of an embarassment. From the prologue of Feast we get a small sample of people who are in the process of becoming maesters. Among them we get a bastard daughter, the crippled son of knight, a noble who doesn't appear to stand to inherit anything. There is the jarring contrast of Pate for whom becoming a maester would have been a huge step up from his former life. This brings to the fore the issue of class and the fact that the majority of our characters are top-tier nobility. Far from being acceptable it seems one of the ways for houses to make use (or dispose off) excess sons. Yet contrast this with the a noble son expressing an interest of becoming a smith or a bard. It seems in conceivable, right? And yet knowledge is one of the possible pursuits for second sons. For one thing only noblemen or those around them would have access to books to begin with, so that they may develop the interest. Second, despite being generally frowned upon it is undeniably useful. And most importantly it is peripheral power. No one can deny that maesters exert influence.

Sam is a good showcase where lines get drawn. He gets heaps of abuse from his father and that is largely due to him being the heir. Hardly every lord is martial and a pretty good case could be made that lords should avoid personally fighting. In adsolute terms fighting prowess for a lord is largely irrelevent. It is ability as a military commander, tactician and strategist that matters. But the latter abilities are at the heart of being a lord. We cannot say that Randyl Tarly is entirely unjustified. For one thing one could argue that one cannot be a general without having swung a sword first, anymore than one can be a captain without being a sailor first. While not being absolute it certainly helps. The other and most important issue is that for young males the prime socializing and proving ground is the training yard and then through being squires get introduced to the greater world. They build their reputation there and establish relationships through this avenue. Sam might have grown to be a lord and have to deal with one of the Redwyne twins as lord of the Arbor who would never take him seriously due to childhood memories and furthermore share his opinions with everone he knows.

We don't see many women aspiring to sholarship. We also don't see them aspiring to become galssblowers, dyers, smiths, shepherds or any of a hundred occupations. It comes down to power. Females are excluded for pretty much everything and military pursuits is where the first line gets drawn for the noble women who are the subject of the novels. Military force is the most prominent and ultimate expression of power in the novels and the most immediately apparent avenue to that is fighting prowess, though not necessarily an open one, which makes sense for the most prominent transedence of gender roles in the novels are ladies who have martial pursuits. Regarding the lack of other aspirations one could attribute it to deeply ingrained social expectations with story, less dramatic potential or that it simply didn't occur to George. I think it is all of the above. In terms of examination of social roles it is a lack but it would have been a sidenote in terms of the greater story.

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