Aegon the Conqueror and Tywin Lannister

[SeanF]

45 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Actually, there are a fair few people who are considered good leaders despite not being the manifestation of chivalry, like Baelor Breakspear. The most noted would be Bloodraven.

For the first part to refute Tywin hasn't killed anyone who he had given guest rights, in no way did he force Frey or Bolton to do this, and he did not tell them they must do the Red Wedding. That's on them. Its on Tywin to accept their plan, but don't pretend he came up with it or carried it out.

For the second part, of course Tywin sends monsters to kill for him, who else would he send and do you think that he can do all his army's work by himself? Tywin is at war and he does not owe his protection to his enemies and even less to rebels. It would be like Bloodraven being charged with murder after killing Daemon Blackfyre and his sons as the Redgrass Field.

Thirdly, I suppose you will hate me a great deal then, but I can live with that.

Fourthly, Tywin has about nothing in common with Hitler and in fact is almost the opposite of Hitler, which you would know if you had any greater interest in history.

Fifthly, its very clear that Tywin cares a great deal about his family. There is a reason as to why he aimed for Cersei to marry a future king, why he provided with his brother Kevan with lands after the war, why he wanted the search for Tyrek to go on and why he tried his best to make Tommen into a proper king without the foolishness that has went on with Aerys II and Joffrey.

And finally, Tytos Lannister was not a brave man. He was silly man who meekly accepted to be tormented and bullied around despite having it in his power to change it. When you refuse to do things, and others suffers from your inactivity, it has passed beyond humility.

I wouldn't say that we see very little of him. He is rather present after the Blackwater up to his murder by Tyrion.

Doing his job don't include rushing ahead at some 60+ years of age and get killed. It includes leading and he does that very well.

And I totally agree that Tywin made mistakes and has his flaws. He is a human, and not a omi-everything god.

As for Tywin's fandom, its in my example based on his leadership, cool strategic mind and foresight. So I don't really see the points presented here.

I agree that Tywin is definitely no coward.  As a young man, he gave ample proof of bravery in the War of the Ninepenny Kings and the fight against the Reynes and Tarbecks.

As an older man, he commands from the rear, rather than fighting in the front line, but that is only sensible.  He's a general.  It's his job to command, not to fight unless necessary. No one would call Caesar a coward, because he commanded in the same way.

But, while I wouldn't call him Hitleresque, his methods of waging war are pretty evil, based as they are on the wanton murder of civilians, rape, torture, and of course, the treatment meted out to Elia and her children.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Actually, there are a fair few people who are considered good leaders despite not being the manifestation of chivalry, like Baelor Breakspear. The most noted would be Bloodraven.

For the first part to refute Tywin hasn't killed anyone who he had given guest rights, in no way did he force Frey or Bolton to do this, and he did not tell them they must do the Red Wedding. That's on them. Its on Tywin to accept their plan, but don't pretend he came up with it or carried it out.

For the second part, of course Tywin sends monsters to kill for him, who else would he send and do you think that he can do all his army's work by himself? Tywin is at war and he does not owe his protection to his enemies and even less to rebels. It would be like Bloodraven being charged with murder after killing Daemon Blackfyre and his sons as the Redgrass Field.

Thirdly, I suppose you will hate me a great deal then, but I can live with that.

Fourthly, Tywin has about nothing in common with Hitler and in fact is almost the opposite of Hitler, which you would know if you had any greater interest in history.

Fifthly, its very clear that Tywin cares a great deal about his family. There is a reason as to why he aimed for Cersei to marry a future king, why he provided with his brother Kevan with lands after the war, why he wanted the search for Tyrek to go on and why he tried his best to make Tommen into a proper king without the foolishness that has went on with Aerys II and Joffrey.

And finally, Tytos Lannister was not a brave man. He was silly man who meekly accepted to be tormented and bullied around despite having it in his power to change it. When you refuse to do things, and others suffers from your inactivity, it has passed beyond humility.

Using Bloodraven as an example does not misprove my point. In universe, Aegon the conqueror is revered as heroic. Bloodraven was not well liked at any point by anyone. The writing of history paints a very negative picture of him.

I am a history major, jackass. I think Tywin has a similar structured mind as close as someone from this time period could. He sees the world as X's and O's, and does not care for people. He is a sociopath. Tywin does not care about his family. He cares about his family's image. There is a big difference here. When someone ignores the needs and wants of individuals, but instead focuses on what he thinks looks good for the family, that is not caring. Oh and Bloodraven was considered a kinslayer by many. At least Bloodraven showed remorse in ADwD. Tywin is a sociopath. Other leaders with some similarities to Tywin : Maegor the Cruel, his own daughter Cersei, Bloodraven, Roose Bolton, and perhaps Stannis Baratheon (strategic similarities). None will be kindly remembered in history (unless Stannis really is Azor Azai and destroys the others...but that is doubtful).

I never suggested Tytos was brave, just braver than Tywin. 

Listen lets run down Tywin Lannister. He destroyed the Reynes and Tarbecks. Two hosts he greatly outnumbered than he brutally murdered them all.He sacked King's Landing in which he was let in by Aerys, then again carried out a brutal sack of the city. Neither of these required a great strategic mind. He simply masacred people heartlessly. During the War of Five Kings..please tell me, what was his brilliant strategy exactly? He killed a lot of peasants, He beat a numerically inferior opponent who may have purposely allowed many of his host on purpose in Roose Bolton. He defeated Stannis on the Blackwater, butdid he? Seems to me Littlefinger's haggaling, Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor, and Tyrion's wildlings killing off Stannis's outriders hadalot moretodo with that victory. Oh yeah, and also he lost the Battle of the Fords to EDMURE TULLY. I will admit Tywin had a gift for alliances and yhe fear he created around him made him powerful, but Cersei killing Robert was the real reason they gained power..or perhaps Cersei defeating Eddard Stark or the combo efforts of Lysa and Cersei to kill Jon Arryn. Tywin married his daughter to a King I guess... (or was that Jon Arryn). Look, I dont think Tywin was a bafoon or anything, but he also is no genius. He won the War of Five Kings by luck and allying with some serious fucked up evil people. The Freys and Karstarks and Theon Greyjoy brought down Robb Stark. Melisandre brought down Renly. Littlefinger and the Reach brought down Stannis. And Euron brought down Balon Greyjoy. Tywin just held on to his luck and did not fuck it up, as Cersei did so well in AFfC. If Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon or even Renly Baratheon had tr luck he had, they would have won. Can you imagine if Melisandre simply was not their. Renly would have smashed Tywin. or if Peter Bailish failed to get Highgarden or if Robb Stark and told Edmure Tully his plans or if, very simply Walder Frey and Roose Bolton were not evil betraying assholes. Or hell, if Stannis or Jon Arryn or Eddard Stark had told and convinced Robert that Cersei's children were Jamie's. Tywin won by luck and evil. He is not a genius. He is not a great leader. He is a lucky tyrant.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I agree that Tywin is definitely no coward.  As a young man, he gave ample proof of bravery in the War of the Ninepenny Kings and the fight against the Reynes and Tarbecks.

As an older man, he commands from the rear, rather than fighting in the front line, but that is only sensible.  He's a general.  It's his job to command, not to fight unless necessary. No one would call Caesar a coward, because he commanded in the same way.

But, while I wouldn't call him Hitleresque, his methods of waging war are pretty evil, based as they are on the wanton murder of civilians, rape, torture, and of course, the treatment meted out to Elia and her children.

I call him a coward because instead of meeting his opponents on the battlefield he had them murdered at a wedding. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

36 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I call him a coward because instead of meeting his opponents on the battlefield he had them murdered at a wedding. 

As Tywin said;

Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner. The price was cheap by any measure.

If we have to measure someone’s bravery, Aegon wasn't brave since he didn't faced anyone during battle. His giant WMD did all of his dirty work.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

29 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

As Tywin said;

Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner. The price was cheap by any measure.

If we have to measure someone’s bravery, Aegon wasn't brave since he didn't faced anyone during battle. His giant WMD did all of his dirty work.

Because you are disobeying social  norms and commiting murder. That is why its called a war crime. Look up the word 'war crime'. You may notice we treat those guilty of war crimes different from soldiers who fight honorably.

Quoting Tywin does not do much. I am sure Hitler, Stallin, Mao, ect. had excuses for their acts of evil as well. And do you really need to be explained the difference here? WMDs is a deeply philosophical and social issue. I have gone back and forth on them many times.

[liongate122]

10 hours ago, devilish said:

He invaded an entire continent because he could, which is fair enough and in line to what most people in Westeros would do, if given the opportunity.Surely you can't expect Aegon to sit out on that pathetic rock of his when he had a trump card that would make him win most of his wars, don't you? The Durrandon's deal wasn't an act of provocation but more an act of Aegon being naive (similar to the one regarding the KG and building walls around KL)..He felt that his sister wives wouldn't like sharing their bed with someone from a different gene pool and he'd rather lose an army then facing them an argument. Tywin wouldn't give a feck of what his relatives would say.

So Aegon is kind because he conquered an entire continent because "he could", but Tywin is a monster because he wanted dominance over it. Well then Aegon naively provoked Durrandon, but used this cassus belli to invade a whole continent which had nothing to do with it. Yeah amkes sense.

Aegon never fought "honorable" (foolish) in the front line. He rode a gigantic flying beast which turned his enemies into ash. It's like using a machine gun against a westerosi knight. I'm not saying that Tywin = Aegon and vice versa, but that Tywin was, at least as far as we know about Aegon, the closest character to him. Bow or burn. 

11 hours ago, devilish said:

If Tywin was in Aegon's shoes he would have gone full Rains of Castamere against the Lannister king but he didn't. Instead all Aegon wanted was for them to bend the knee, no hostages, no unnecessary shows of cruelty as show of power, nothing. Tywin would have burnt the Eyrie down. How dare they refuse to bend the knee to him?  Instead Aegon took young Ronnel on a dragon's ride and Ronnel bent the knee. Again, no hostages, no unneccessary shows of cruelty as show of power nothing. Aegon rewarded those who bent the knee and gave people fair deals. The Tullys and the Tyrells took over the Reach and the Riverlands but every bannerman knew that they had Aegon's back. Tywin pretty left the Boltons to fend on their own. He couldn't even spare Sansa to marry Roose as he wanted Tyrion to marry her and in the future take the North under Roose's nose.

 

  "When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.", - Tywin  The Lannisters were punished for their defiance at teh Field of Fire, but after that they bend the knee. People like to make Tywin an angry psycopath who destroyed everyone who ever wronged him, while teh total detstruction of teh Tarbecks and Reynes made total sense from a feudal point of view.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Because you are disobeying social  norms and commiting murder. That is why its called a war crime. Look up the word 'war crime'. You may notice we treat those guilty of war crimes different from soldiers who fight honerably.

Since when WMD and bending the knee to abominations born of incest was a norm in Westeros? Aegon and his sister were abominations created from mortal sins in the eyes of every Westerosi God and culture. It was the Westeros norm to not bend the knee to something so repulsive. Aegon and his sisters have proved that there is no law in war and their family had to pay the price. I am not saying that Tywin was right, he had exaggerated killing Robb and Cat while arresting the rest would had been enough, but Aegon wasn’t an example of bravery either since he had done nothing on his own, he used WMD.

[liongate122]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Since when WMD and bending the knee to abominations born of incest was a norm in Westeros? Aegon and his sister were abominations created from mortal sins in the eyes of every Westerosi God and culture. It was the Westeros norm to not bend the knee to something so repulsive. Aegon and his sisters have proved that there is no law in war and their family had to pay the price. I am not saying that Tywin was right, he had exaggerated killing Robb and Cat while arresting the rest would had been enough, but Aegon wasn’t an example of bravery either since he had done nothing on his own, he used WMD.

This + I'm pretty sure the Lannister and Tyrell soldiers which'd have died "honorably" if they had to defeat Robb in battle are Tywin quite thankful.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Since when WMD and bending the knee to abominations born of incest was a norm in Westeros? Aegon and his sister were abominations created from mortal sins in the eyes of every Westerosi God and culture. It was the Westeros norm to not bend the knee to something so repulsive. Aegon and his sisters have proved that there is no law in war and their family had to pay the price. I am not saying that Tywin was right, he had exaggerated killing Robb and Cat while arresting the rest would had been enough, but Aegon wasn’t an example of bravery either since he had done nothing on his own, he used WMD.

I edited, reread my above statement.

[Magnar of Skagos]

4 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

For Aenys one of Rhaenys' lovers and Maegor was at least conceived by magic.

 

Not sure if trolling, or... On the off chance that you're not, what makes you believe these things?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

19 minutes ago, Maelys I Blackfyre said:

Not sure if trolling, or... On the off chance that you're not, what makes you believe these things?

Personally I don't believe it but I have seen many well supported theories around here about this. 

22 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I edited, reread my above statement.

I have seen that but I disagree. Yes what Tywin did was awful but not many men would had the bravery to do that, to make themselves one of the most hated person in Westerosi history. 

22 minutes ago, liongate122 said:

This + I'm pretty sure the Lannister and Tyrell soldiers which'd have died "honorably" if they had to defeat Robb in battle are Tywin quite thankful.

True. Also those and men from the Reach and the Westerlands that had played no part on what happened to Robb's family, paying the price was honorable?

[theblackdragonI]

4 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

For Aenys one of Rhaenys' lovers and Maegor was at least conceived by magic.

 

what? 

11 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Who in gods name do you imagine fathered Maegor and Aenys? 

 

I disagree with this comparision strongly. I want to start withthe simple. To be quite honest, there is no one who is considered a "good" leader like Tywin in the ASOIAF world. There are tyrants who murdered people while they have guest right, there were despicable cravens who sent monsters to kill for them. Tywin is evil, and I hate people who defend him. He is a hitleresq monster who kills and rapes and destroys everything in his path. Aegon my have conquered. So did many in real and fake histories, but Tywin Lannister is a despot. He is a coward who has no cares except himself. Even his own children hate him for Christ sake. This is not a man to be idolized. His father who he hated so much was braver than him. At least he had the humility to let others laugh at him instead of killing anyone who did.

Yea I don't get the comparison here at all. Tywin was a ruthless, calculating pragmatist and very capable I can't deny that. But, Aegon is a much better ruler in every way possible. He is

 1) open-handed (allows the Lords to retain all their lands and promotes others loyal),

 2) strong (doesn't need to be explained),

 3) smart (delegates ruling to those more capable, i.e. his siblings), 

 4) Puts the good of the realm ahead of his personal feelings (doesn't invade Dorne again)

 5) loyal (never cheats on his wives, rewards those loyal to him)

While Tywin is certainly a good ruler for his time, he is a man of extremes and doesn't endear himself to anyone. People only obey him out of fear and his enemies will never accept his rule completely, he would always be resented, where as Aegon was loved and respected. He would never put the better of the realm before him or his family. Still he is a badass and to be honest I kind of like the way he doesn't give a damn about honour, he is a realist I suppose. Still there's no comparison with Aegon, Aegon would have crushed him like a bug.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

53 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I have seen that but I disagree. Yes what Tywin did was awful but not many men would had the bravery to do that, to make themselves one of the most hated person in Westerosi history. 

Do you really believe commiting a warcrime is brave? Seriously, you think murdering people is brave? Please tell me you go to prisons often to congratulate the inmates on their bravery to murder others.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

17 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

what? 

What wasn't clear? The fact that Aegon might had been sterile?

[theblackdragonI]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What wasn't clear? The fact that Aegon might had been sterile?

No way in hell would George have made Aegon sterile. What would be the point of that? The reveal would mean that every single Targ king after him was a bastard and had no connection to the Conqueror? No sane reason for it at all

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, theblackdragonI said:

No way in hell would George have made Aegon sterile.

How do you know that? After all why is Aegon most important that thousands of Kings before him?

1 minute ago, theblackdragonI said:

The reveal would mean that every single Targ king after him was a bastard and had no connection to the Conqueror? No sane reason for it at all

They had connection to Aegon. Aegon was an abomination botn of incest hence all of his sisters' descendants had biological connection with him.

[theblackdragonI]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How do you know that? After all why is Aegon most important that thousands of Kings before him?

They had connection to Aegon. Aegon was an abomination botn of incest hence all of his sisters' descendants had biological connection with him.

I don't but its really very unlikely that one of the most talked about kings and founder of the main dynasty in the series fathered no children.. Because he conquered the continent and his dynasty ruled for 300 years and his last two living descendants are the main characters in the series? 

Still bastards and not direct descendants. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

I don't but its really very unlikely that one of the most talked about kings and founder of the main dynasty in the series fathered no children.. 

What this has to do with his ability to have children? Visenya hasn't stopped to be a bad@@s because she has no living descendants.

5 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

Because he conquered the continent and his dynasty ruled for 300 years and his last two living descendants are the main characters in the series? 

He didn't had done it alone, his sisters are as much conquerors as he was. Durran the Godsgrief married a goddess and Bran the Builder might had been raised by Gods, those are much more impressive than someone using WMD.

5 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

Still bastards and not direct descendants. 

Which still means nothing.

[theblackdragonI]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What this has to do with his ability to have children? Visenya hasn't stopped to be a bad@@s because she has no living descendants.

He didn't had done it alone, his sisters are as much conquerors as he was.

Which still means nothing.

okay this really isn't going to go anywhere bye

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

okay this really isn't going to go anywhere bye

You may want to believe whatever you want but based on the text is quite possible that Aegon had no trueborn children.