Aegon the Conqueror and Tywin Lannister

[Lion of the West]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

I agree that Tywin is definitely no coward.  As a young man, he gave ample proof of bravery in the War of the Ninepenny Kings and the fight against the Reynes and Tarbecks.

As an older man, he commands from the rear, rather than fighting in the front line, but that is only sensible.  He's a general.  It's his job to command, not to fight unless necessary. No one would call Caesar a coward, because he commanded in the same way.

But, while I wouldn't call him Hitleresque, his methods of waging war are pretty evil, based as they are on the wanton murder of civilians, rape, torture, and of course, the treatment meted out to Elia and her children.

I agree with most, and I also agree that Tywin had brutal ways of warfare, even if they were not unheard of in Westeros before that date, and  I am mostly thinking here of the Dance of the Dragons, which was kind of a nasty and dirty war.

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Using Bloodraven as an example does not misprove my point. In universe, Aegon the conqueror is revered as heroic. Bloodraven was not well liked at any point by anyone. The writing of history paints a very negative picture of him.

Bloodraven was still a great leader. Not a popular one, but a great one. And he did keep his position as Hand of the King across, if I recall, three kings' reigns. While he naturally made mistakes and had flaws, he did seems to have kept a pretty good course for the Seven Kingdoms.

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I am a history major, jackass. I think Tywin has a similar structured mind as close as someone from this time period could. He sees the world as X's and O's, and does not care for people. He is a sociopath. Tywin does not care about his family. He cares about his family's image. There is a big difference here. When someone ignores the needs and wants of individuals, but instead focuses on what he thinks looks good for the family, that is not caring. Oh and Bloodraven was considered a kinslayer by many. At least Bloodraven showed remorse in ADwD. Tywin is a sociopath. Other leaders with some similarities to Tywin : Maegor the Cruel, his own daughter Cersei, Bloodraven, Roose Bolton, and perhaps Stannis Baratheon (strategic similarities). None will be kindly remembered in history (unless Stannis really is Azor Azai and destroys the others...but that is doubtful).

For the first thing I only have your word that you are history major, and some person's word on the internet is useless to me. Therefor I don't attribute this claim any importance. Sorry.

Please refrain from name calling.

But to start this off I see no reason as to think that Tywin is a sociopath given that he does care for the Lannisters and his siblings do show affection for him and can tell their juniors how Tywin became like he is. To me its entirely clear that Tywin cares greatly for his relatives and takes care to reward non-relatives as well when they preform their duty well. The sheer lengths that Tywin goes to ensure that his relatives, including bastards, get a good future is kind of telling as well as that he is clearly trying to make Tommen ready to rule in his own name and not as anyone's puppet.

Other leaders with similarities with Tywin also include Daemon Targaryen and Maekar Targaryen.

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I never suggested Tytos was brave, just braver than Tywin.

Ok, my mistake.

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Listen lets run down Tywin Lannister. He destroyed the Reynes and Tarbecks. Two hosts he greatly outnumbered than he brutally murdered them all.

The Tarbecks were defeated first, then Lady Tarbeck refused an offer to surrender, and then Tarbeck Hall was stormed. The Reynes were defeated and just like Lady Tarbeck refused an offer to surrender, and were then killed. In both cases Tywin offered them to surrender and in both cases it was refused. Why should Tywin have to be lenient on people who picks the option to fight?

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He sacked King's Landing in which he was let in by Aerys, then again carried out a brutal sack of the city.

And in opposition from several thousand loyalists Tywin also took control over King's Landing, a city of 500K people, in a matter of hours. That's some serious military skill at work. For when Stark came Tywin wasn't embroiled in street fighting but was rather pretty much in control of the situation.

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Neither of these required a great strategic mind. He simply masacred people heartlessly.

See above for corrections regarding these.

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During the War of Five Kings..please tell me, what was his brilliant strategy exactly? He killed a lot of peasants, He beat a numerically inferior opponent who may have purposely allowed many of his host on purpose in Roose Bolton.

The brilliant strategy was to knock out the Riverlands so fast that when Robb's Northmen arrived, it was almost to late and if Late Lord Frey had not decided to support a war against the Lannisters, the Tullys would have been undone before anyone could have a chance to come to the rescue, and so very possibly end the war then and there.

And then following Jaime's defeat Tywin keeps his army operating in hostile territory with clear lines back to the capital so that he can reinforce it if needed. And most importantly, when everything goes wrong, he keeps his forces together and united.

That's some good strategy and leadership for a start.

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He defeated Stannis on the Blackwater, butdid he? Seems to me Littlefinger's haggaling, Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor, and Tyrion's wildlings killing off Stannis's outriders hadalot moretodo with that victory.

It was a team effort. What more is there to say?

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Oh yeah, and also he lost the Battle of the Fords to EDMURE TULLY.

Attacking entrenched enemies across fords is a difficult task. And like I think I've said, Tywin is a human, so he isn't flawless, never makes mistakes or can't be beaten.

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I will admit Tywin had a gift for alliances and yhe fear he created around him made him powerful, but Cersei killing Robert was the real reason they gained power..or perhaps Cersei defeating Eddard Stark or the combo efforts of Lysa and Cersei to kill Jon Arryn. Tywin married his daughter to a King I guess... (or was that Jon Arryn).

Not really. Even during Robert's life the Lannisters were the power at court and Joffrey was already then closer with his mother than his father. Odds are that if Robert had not died, he would have caved in to the Lannisters, again, and there would not have been a larger war.

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Look, I dont think Tywin was a bafoon or anything, but he also is no genius. He won the War of Five Kings by luck and allying with some serious fucked up evil people. The Freys and Karstarks and Theon Greyjoy brought down Robb Stark. Melisandre brought down Renly. Littlefinger and the Reach brought down Stannis. And Euron brought down Balon Greyjoy. Tywin just held on to his luck and did not fuck it up, as Cersei did so well in AFfC. If Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon or even Renly Baratheon had tr luck he had, they would have won. Can you imagine if Melisandre simply was not their. Renly would have smashed Tywin. or if Peter Bailish failed to get Highgarden or if Robb Stark and told Edmure Tully his plans or if, very simply Walder Frey and Roose Bolton were not evil betraying assholes. Or hell, if Stannis or Jon Arryn or Eddard Stark had told and convinced Robert that Cersei's children were Jamie's. Tywin won by luck and evil. He is not a genius. He is not a great leader. He is a lucky tyrant.

Or rather Tywin could take oppertunities and not squander his successes like his opponents did. Robb himself tried to let the Ironmen lose on the Westerlands, good fun for all the smallfolk along the coast one could assume, and Robb lost the Freys and Karstarks on his own initiative. I don't hold losing the Karstarks against Robb as he couldn't not punish them and Lord Karstark didn't give him much choice, but losing the Frey was just stupid.

In regards to Stannis, Stannis brought down Stannis by being himself. The Tyrells have no reason to love Stannis and every to hate and fear him.

Also I don't get why you put Balon in here. Balon was never an enemy of the Lannisters in practice.

Also Renly winning isn't certain. To start with Renly would still not have had Stannis' navy so would have to try and cross the Blackwater without navy support. That's trying to cross a, to my understanding, large river without proper ships in the face of enemy, proper, ships on that very river while Tywin can come down by the Kingsroad to reinforce the defenses. Needless to say, Renly would be in for a very, very bloody and nasty fight to make it over the river. With such an challenge before him I wouldn't take for granted that he would be able to do it.

Problem with the Tyrells is that regardless if Littlefinger would have come to them, they would still have killed or captured those men who wer loyal to Stannis and so effectively thrown their fate against Stannis. No way they would allow the Lord of Dragonstone to take the throne, regardless of Tywin being there or not. At worst the Lannisters and Tyrells would come to avenge the people in the Red Keep rather than save them.

If Jon Arryn, Stannis or Eddard had convinced Robert, why yes, then Tywin would have been screwed. But they didn't fail due to luck, they failed because Cersei wanted to keep the secret secret, and thanks to the Lannister power at court was able to ensure it went her way, and Littlefinger wanted a war between the Wolf and Lion.

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Using Bloodraven as an example does not misprove my point. In universe, Aegon the conqueror is revered as heroic. Bloodraven was not well liked at any point by anyone. The writing of history paints a very negative picture of him.

I am a history major, jackass. I think Tywin has a similar structured mind as close as someone from this time period could. He sees the world as X's and O's, and does not care for people. He is a sociopath. Tywin does not care about his family. He cares about his family's image. There is a big difference here. When someone ignores the needs and wants of individuals, but instead focuses on what he thinks looks good for the family, that is not caring. Oh and Bloodraven was considered a kinslayer by many. At least Bloodraven showed remorse in ADwD. Tywin is a sociopath. Other leaders with some similarities to Tywin : Maegor the Cruel, his own daughter Cersei, Bloodraven, Roose Bolton, and perhaps Stannis Baratheon (strategic similarities). None will be kindly remembered in history (unless Stannis really is Azor Azai and destroys the others...but that is doubtful).

I never suggested Tytos was brave, just braver than Tywin. 

Listen lets run down Tywin Lannister. He destroyed the Reynes and Tarbecks. Two hosts he greatly outnumbered than he brutally murdered them all.He sacked King's Landing in which he was let in by Aerys, then again carried out a brutal sack of the city. Neither of these required a great strategic mind. He simply masacred people heartlessly. During the War of Five Kings..please tell me, what was his brilliant strategy exactly? He killed a lot of peasants, He beat a numerically inferior opponent who may have purposely allowed many of his host on purpose in Roose Bolton. He defeated Stannis on the Blackwater, butdid he? Seems to me Littlefinger's haggaling, Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor, and Tyrion's wildlings killing off Stannis's outriders hadalot moretodo with that victory. Oh yeah, and also he lost the Battle of the Fords to EDMURE TULLY. I will admit Tywin had a gift for alliances and yhe fear he created around him made him powerful, but Cersei killing Robert was the real reason they gained power..or perhaps Cersei defeating Eddard Stark or the combo efforts of Lysa and Cersei to kill Jon Arryn. Tywin married his daughter to a King I guess... (or was that Jon Arryn). Look, I dont think Tywin was a bafoon or anything, but he also is no genius. He won the War of Five Kings by luck and allying with some serious fucked up evil people. The Freys and Karstarks and Theon Greyjoy brought down Robb Stark. Melisandre brought down Renly. Littlefinger and the Reach brought down Stannis. And Euron brought down Balon Greyjoy. Tywin just held on to his luck and did not fuck it up, as Cersei did so well in AFfC. If Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon or even Renly Baratheon had tr luck he had, they would have won. Can you imagine if Melisandre simply was not their. Renly would have smashed Tywin. or if Peter Bailish failed to get Highgarden or if Robb Stark and told Edmure Tully his plans or if, very simply Walder Frey and Roose Bolton were not evil betraying assholes. Or hell, if Stannis or Jon Arryn or Eddard Stark had told and convinced Robert that Cersei's children were Jamie's. Tywin won by luck and evil. He is not a genius. He is not a great leader. He is a lucky tyrant.

   What a fabulously correct assessment of the guy.

[devilish]

15 hours ago, liongate122 said:

So Aegon is kind because he conquered an entire continent because "he could", but Tywin is a monster because he wanted dominance over it. Well then Aegon naively provoked Durrandon, but used this cassus belli to invade a whole continent which had nothing to do with it. Yeah amkes sense.

Aegon never fought "honorable" (foolish) in the front line. He rode a gigantic flying beast which turned his enemies into ash. It's like using a machine gun against a westerosi knight. I'm not saying that Tywin = Aegon and vice versa, but that Tywin was, at least as far as we know about Aegon, the closest character to him. Bow or burn. 

  "When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.", - Tywin  The Lannisters were punished for their defiance at teh Field of Fire, but after that they bend the knee. People like to make Tywin an angry psycopath who destroyed everyone who ever wronged him, while teh total detstruction of teh Tarbecks and Reynes made total sense from a feudal point of view.

 

Let me put thing clear for you. I prefer Tywin to Aegon. While neither of them were Napoleon Bonaparte, Tywin had more brains which made him a better negotiator and a better statesman to Aegon. Aegon can attribute most of his conquests to two things a a loyal family with brains (the real brains behind the Targ family) and dragons.  

Westeros was in a deadlock for thousands of years. None of the seven kingdoms was able to capture Westeros because none of them could. That’s clearly evident during the war of 5 kings. No one, not even the Lannisters or the Tyrells could capture the entire continent without help.   Also the advantages of having a united continent are pretty evident. A divided Westeros was an easier prey to foreign invasion (First men, Andals, Targeryans). A United Westeros could keep this invasion at bay (Golden Company, the war of the ninepenny kings etc). 
Dragons broke the deadlock and gave Aegon the edge. He was able to conquer all 6 kingdoms who, in most of the time, were more busy keeping grievances to one another than to unite against the common enemy. Anyone who was in Aegon’s position would have done the same. 

Why Aegon was kind?

a-    He pardoned everyone who bent the knee to him. You can bring as many quotes as you want but Tywin wasn’t the forgiving type. We’re talking about a man who exterminated an entire family for defying him. Surely someone was willing to bend the knee when it was evident that the Reynes were defeated. He plotted to have his own son killed/sent to the wall even though he proved to be an asset to the family time and time again. 

b-    He allowed those who bent the knee to keep their lands and he awarded those who were loyal to him with support and new lands. Orys Baratheon married a queen and was appointed Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. The Tyrells were appointed Lord Paramount of the Reach and the Tullys were given the Riverlands. The Freys did a despicable act on the Lannisters behalf and they weren’t even appointed Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. Roose did the same and he was offloaded to the North, without 1 single Lannister soldier at his side and ordered to become temporary Lord Paramount of the North until Sansa-Tyrion son come to age. Kevan wasn’t even given a Lordship despite serving his brother for decades. 

c-    Aegon had all 6 kingdoms under his thumb and yet he preferred choosing one of the weakest regions for himself rather than step on his bannermen’s thumbs. Tywin made sure Tyrion marries Sansa so that their heir will claim the North from under Roose’s nose. He kept Edmure and his kid hostage, probably to do the same with Edmure’s child once he comes to age (ie marrying him off to a Lannister and claiming the Riverlands on his behalf)

d-    Aegon was never known for his cruelty. He didn’t butchered innocent princesses and children and no one sings songs about his cruelty. 

It’s true that Aegon fought on a gigantic flying beast but dragons can be killed. Also, surely, Tywin could kill Elia and her children without risking getting hurt could he? He could have settles his grievances with Aerys and Balon without expecting Robert to do most of the work on his behalf and he could have faced his children (Tywin could order Joffrey/Tommen to kick Jamie out of the KG and return him to CR and that would settle issues with Tyrion’s inheritance) rather than go along to a ridiculous farce to have Tyrion killed/sent to the wall. It was frigging evident that Tyrion wasn’t guilty of Joffrey’s murder. I am not saying he's a coward. I am just saying that he prefers to let others do his dirty work. 

As said I am not saying that Tywin better/worse than Aegon but just that they are different. The circumstances are also different.  Aegon had dragons and a family which was loyal to the cause (Jamie cared only of shagging Cersei, Cersei destroys everything good that crosses its path and Tyrion just love poking at Cersei).   That gave him clear advantages over Tywin who had to compensate by being ruthless and shrewd. In matter of fact once dragons got extinct and father/son starting arguing with one another (Rhaegar wanted Aerys deposed, Aerys didn't trust Rhaegar) everything went tits up.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 10/12/2016 at 7:49 AM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

   What a fabulously correct assessment of the guy.

Well thank you. LionoftheWest might come after you now though, lol. He defends a sociopath like a good defense lawyer would for amy heartless mobster I guess...not sure what's in it for him though.

[The Wolves]

On 10/11/2016 at 10:27 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Using Bloodraven as an example does not misprove my point. In universe, Aegon the conqueror is revered as heroic. Bloodraven was not well liked at any point by anyone. The writing of history paints a very negative picture of him.

I am a history major, jackass. I think Tywin has a similar structured mind as close as someone from this time period could. He sees the world as X's and O's, and does not care for people. He is a sociopath. Tywin does not care about his family. He cares about his family's image. There is a big difference here. When someone ignores the needs and wants of individuals, but instead focuses on what he thinks looks good for the family, that is not caring. Oh and Bloodraven was considered a kinslayer by many. At least Bloodraven showed remorse in ADwD. Tywin is a sociopath. Other leaders with some similarities to Tywin : Maegor the Cruel, his own daughter Cersei, Bloodraven, Roose Bolton, and perhaps Stannis Baratheon (strategic similarities). None will be kindly remembered in history (unless Stannis really is Azor Azai and destroys the others...but that is doubtful).

I never suggested Tytos was brave, just braver than Tywin. 

Listen lets run down Tywin Lannister. He destroyed the Reynes and Tarbecks. Two hosts he greatly outnumbered than he brutally murdered them all.He sacked King's Landing in which he was let in by Aerys, then again carried out a brutal sack of the city. Neither of these required a great strategic mind. He simply masacred people heartlessly. During the War of Five Kings..please tell me, what was his brilliant strategy exactly? He killed a lot of peasants, He beat a numerically inferior opponent who may have purposely allowed many of his host on purpose in Roose Bolton. He defeated Stannis on the Blackwater, butdid he? Seems to me Littlefinger's haggaling, Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor, and Tyrion's wildlings killing off Stannis's outriders hadalot moretodo with that victory. Oh yeah, and also he lost the Battle of the Fords to EDMURE TULLY. I will admit Tywin had a gift for alliances and yhe fear he created around him made him powerful, but Cersei killing Robert was the real reason they gained power..or perhaps Cersei defeating Eddard Stark or the combo efforts of Lysa and Cersei to kill Jon Arryn. Tywin married his daughter to a King I guess... (or was that Jon Arryn). Look, I dont think Tywin was a bafoon or anything, but he also is no genius. He won the War of Five Kings by luck and allying with some serious fucked up evil people. The Freys and Karstarks and Theon Greyjoy brought down Robb Stark. Melisandre brought down Renly. Littlefinger and the Reach brought down Stannis. And Euron brought down Balon Greyjoy. Tywin just held on to his luck and did not fuck it up, as Cersei did so well in AFfC. If Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon or even Renly Baratheon had tr luck he had, they would have won. Can you imagine if Melisandre simply was not their. Renly would have smashed Tywin. or if Peter Bailish failed to get Highgarden or if Robb Stark and told Edmure Tully his plans or if, very simply Walder Frey and Roose Bolton were not evil betraying assholes. Or hell, if Stannis or Jon Arryn or Eddard Stark had told and convinced Robert that Cersei's children were Jamie's. Tywin won by luck and evil. He is not a genius. He is not a great leader. He is a lucky tyrant.

Thank You!!!! 

This is perfect, the bolded sums up Tywin exactly!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Well thank you. LionoftheWest might come after you now though, lol. He defends a sociopath like a good defense lawyer would for amy heartless mobster I guess...not sure what's in it for him though.

That is a kind of personal attack and by definition isn’t cool. Also if you want to name Tywin a sociopath, which he isn’t since there is no sociopathy, then you have to do the same for a man who attacked innocent people with WMD.

[The Wolves]

6 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That is a kind of personal attack and by definition isn’t cool. Also if you want to name Tywin a sociopath, which he isn’t since there is no sociopathy, then you have to do the same for a man who attacked innocent people with WMD.

What's WMD? 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

What's WMD? 

Weapons of mass destruction. I am sure that you know that.

[Red Man Racey]

52 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Weapons of mass destruction. I am sure that you know that.

 

I could see how someone might not immediately associate the acronym with that in the context of a fantasy novel; could very easily think it's the acronym for a conspiracy or some other theory:  GNC, RLJ, etc.

[Lion of the West]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Well thank you. LionoftheWest might come after you now though, lol. He defends a sociopath like a good defense lawyer would for amy heartless mobster I guess...not sure what's in it for him though.

Why would I go after a third party in a discussion with you? People expressing their like for one post or another is hardly enough to make a reply about.

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That is a kind of personal attack and by definition isn’t cool. Also if you want to name Tywin a sociopath, which he isn’t since there is no sociopathy, then you have to do the same for a man who attacked innocent people with WMD.

Thanks for the post. I appreciate it.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Well thank you. LionoftheWest might come after you now though, lol. He defends a sociopath like a good defense lawyer would for amy heartless mobster I guess...not sure what's in it for him though.

Tywin is exactly what someone would call an A-rate heartless monster. This is the guy who had an innocent girl gangraped by his household guard (And forced his son to participate) for the crime of marrying above her station. 

[Lion of the West]

15 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Tywin is exactly what someone would call an A-rate heartless monster. This is the guy who had an innocent girl gangraped by his household guard (And forced his son to participate) for the crime of marrying above her station. 

I agree that episode was a horrible, horrible thing.

[Dofs]

On 10/10/2016 at 7:35 PM, Adam Yozza said:

I can understand where devilish is coming from though. I always read him as someone who'd do his own dirty work either when he had no choice (Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion) or no chance of defeat (Greyjoy Rebellion), but that if he had the opportunity to get someone else to do it for him he would jump at it (Red Wedding, Roberts Rebellion)

I think you are reading too much into it. It's not like Tywin didn't have a choice when he rode with his army during the Wo5K but he still did it. Tywin is not a case of someone who would much prefer to do his dirty work with the hand of others. Tywin is someone who doesn't prefer to do his dirty work himself. It's no matter for him, if it's him who does it or others, as long as it gets the job done.

[Dofs]

delete

[The Grey Wolf]

8 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Tywin is exactly what someone would call an A-rate heartless monster. This is the guy who had an innocent girl gangraped by his household guard (And forced his son to participate) for the crime of marrying above her station. 

I wouldn't call Tywin a sociopath. He's, IMO, far too proud, petty, and willfully blind to things he doesn't want to believe to be that. Plus, he did love his wife. Honestly, now that I think about it Tywin is worse than a sociopath. He's monster DESPITE being normal from a physical and neurological/psychological standpoint. And yeah he is overrated. It took in the series GRRM making one bad thing after another happen to the Starks and Stannis in order for the Lannisters to get out of the shitty situation they were in at the end of AGOT and throughout ACOK until the end of the Blackwater so we are in agreement there.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

3 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I wouldn't call Tywin a sociopath. He's, IMO, far too proud, petty, and willfully blind to things he doesn't want to believe to be that. Plus, he did love his wife. Honestly, now that I think about it Tywin is worse than a sociopath. He's monster DESPITE being normal from a physical and neurological/psychological standpoint. And yeah he is overrated. It took in the series GRRM making one bad thing after another happen to the Starks and Stannis in order for the Lannisters to get out of the shitty situation they were in at the end of AGOT and throughout ACOK until the end of the Blackwater so we are in agreement there.

Well I'm not familiar with the exact definition of what sociopathy is so I won't call him that. But I often wondered while reading the books if this guy has any capacity for emotions beyond ambition, pride, and anger (He hardly shows any reaction when Tyrion arrives with a crossbow while he's on the privy, for heavens sake ) so it's pretty weird. Maybe he was different when his wife was around, but we have to see.

And yeah Lord of Raventree Hall summarised perfectly why Tywin won the War of the 5K - due to plot armor  luck, and hardly any real strategy of his own -  except for the underhanded RW, of course.

[Lion of the West]

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

And yeah Lord of Raventree Hall summarised perfectly why Tywin won the War of the 5K - due to plot armor  luck, and hardly any real strategy of his own -  except for the underhanded RW, of course.

Not really, its just wishful ignorance on the parts of the critics.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

43 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Not really, its just wishful ignorance on the parts of the critics.

And not bias from your side? It's fact that 90% of the events which led to Tywin's success in the Wot5K were luck. What great brilliant move did Tywin execute in the Wot5K except for the RW?

[Lion of the West]

17 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

And not bias from your side? It's fact that 90% of the events which led to Tywin's success in the Wot5K were luck. What great brilliant move did Tywin execute in the Wot5K except for the RW?

I do not claim to objectivity personified, but I do claim to be less driven by emotion in regards to Tywin than most are.

For the first part more or less knocking the Riverlands out of the war before their likely allies, Stark and Arryn, would have been able to muster a relief was briliant. If not for Lord Frey turning from a weasel to a lion, Robb Stark would have no chance to prevent Jamie from taking Riverrun, and so get hostages to pretty much end the war. That war was brilliantly executed.

Then with enemies growing all around him and first Jamie's host and then Stafford's being destroyed, Tywin keeps his army together and active rather than sucumb to panic, or let anyone among his lords make a panic-driven decision or defy his leadership in the way the Karstarks defied Robb's.

Then again when Edmure have let the Riverlords spread out to defend against Clegane, he pummels them up and down. He played them like a fiddle there, and once more kept active in the war. Not to mention that his position at Harrenhall was also great as that left him with the Kingsroad to move to King's Landing if needed, while at the same time being able to prosecute the war with the separatists.

He put Tyrion, kind of the right man, in charge of King's Landing to prevent Cersei and Joffrey from causing more havoc for the Lannister cause. And it ended up pretty well I'd say given that Tyrion was one of the few who wouldn't have circles run around him or potentially by bullied by the Cersei-Joffrey combo.

And then, as far a I can tell, Tywin was soundly in control of the court even though the Tyrells were allied with the Lannisters. After Tywin died the Tyrells start to gooble up more and more power until they've kind of taken over. That's also a clear indication of how skilled Tywin was in ruling and dominating the politics around him.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

On 10/14/2016 at 1:53 AM, LionoftheWest said:

I do not claim to objectivity personified, but I do claim to be less driven by emotion in regards to Tywin than most are.

That's not very believable based on your av, name and sig, but okay.

 

On 10/14/2016 at 1:53 AM, LionoftheWest said:

For the first part more or less knocking the Riverlands out of the war before their likely allies, Stark and Arryn, would have been able to muster a relief was briliant. If not for Lord Frey turning from a weasel to a lion, Robb Stark would have no chance to prevent Jamie from taking Riverrun, and so get hostages to pretty much end the war. That war was brilliantly executed.

It was actually the only thing he could really do, not some extreme stroke of brilliance. The North, Vale, Riverlands, Stormlands + Tyrells, Martells, Dragonstone...every single kingdom was against him, and the only way they could hope to have some leverage over the others was to take hostages. Logically the next move after that would be to attack the Riverlands, because that's the region directly bordering the Westerlands, with the least natural defenses and the most incompetent leader. It was pretty much his only course of action after his trap for Ned failed. So I'd say good move, but not something special, and not something I couldn't see others in his position doing.

On 10/14/2016 at 1:53 AM, LionoftheWest said:

Then with enemies growing all around him and first Jamie's host and then Stafford's being destroyed, Tywin keeps his army together and active rather than sucumb to panic, or let anyone among his lords make a panic-driven decision or defy his leadership in the way the Karstarks defied Robb's.

I'd attribute that more to the entire Reyne-Tarbeck thing than him personally keeping his army together, Stannis-style.

On 10/14/2016 at 1:53 AM, LionoftheWest said:

Then again when Edmure have let the Riverlords spread out to defend against Clegane, he pummels them up and down. He played them like a fiddle there, and once more kept active in the war. Not to mention that his position at Harrenhall was also great as that left him with the Kingsroad to move to King's Landing if needed, while at the same time being able to prosecute the war with the separatists.

Relates to my point above. The HH move actually backfired on him because he expected Robb to attack him there. 

On 10/14/2016 at 1:53 AM, LionoftheWest said:

He put Tyrion, kind of the right man, in charge of King's Landing to prevent Cersei and Joffrey from causing more havoc for the Lannister cause. And it ended up pretty well I'd say given that Tyrion was one of the few who wouldn't have circles run around him or potentially by bullied by the Cersei-Joffrey combo.

And why should Tyrion's moves be credited to Tywin? In that case we should also credit Cersei's stupidity to Tywin because he's the one who really made her queen. 

On 10/14/2016 at 1:53 AM, LionoftheWest said:

And then, as far a I can tell, Tywin was soundly in control of the court even though the Tyrells were allied with the Lannisters. After Tywin died the Tyrells start to gooble up more and more power until they've kind of taken over. That's also a clear indication of how skilled Tywin was in ruling and dominating the politics around him.

This is not really a part of the Wot5K, but I agree. He was a skilled politician, that's pretty much his major talent.

 

In any case, let's look at the real decisive factors in the Wot5K:

- Stannis killing Renly with a shadowbaby, thus freeing up the Tyrells - no Tywin work here

- Tyrion and LF getting the Tyrells on the Lannister's side -  no Tywin work

-  Balon Greyjoy deciding to ignore the rich Westerlands to take the North (?!) -  no Tywin work here

- Theon Greyjoy taking WInterfell and Robb losing his seat, precipitating Roose's betrayal - no Tywin

- Theon "killing" Bran and Rickon which led to Catelyn releasing Jaime - huge plot gift again and no Tywin involvement

- The Martells and Vale not joining in the game - huge plot gift, no Tywin involvement

-  Arya not naming Tywin, or any Lannister for that matter, in her three names list to Jaqen -  A TOTAL plot gift, no Tywin

- Euron killing Balon - no Tywin

- Robb not telling Edmure his plans - no Tywin

This is just off the top of my head, I suppose I could find more if I go on.

 

Where Tywin did have a hand -  possibly making Sybell Spicer feed Robb some love potions by way of unsuspecting Jeyne, leading to breaking his betrothal, and then executing the RW and skillfully letting Frey and Bolton take the blame. There was again a slight luck involved there because any house with half a brain would have balked at breaking guest right and making themselves so hated, but whatever.

So my point that there was 90% luck and 10% of Tywin's own effort in winning the Wot5K still stands.