Aegon the Conqueror and Tywin Lannister

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

How many servants, children and innocent women of the Hoare family were burned to death by Aegon. 

I'm guessing those who were in the castle at the time when Aegon burned it down like a candle. At least no evacuation of servants by Aegon's forces have been reported to my knowledge. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 9/11/2016 at 7:28 AM, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I remember reading that and literally just shaking my ahead.

Agreed on all counts 

And I knew what you meant regarding the Eyrie strategy. I know it was meant to cause any mother to go insane 

Visenya was counting on that and people dare to call that kind...

On 9/11/2016 at 5:10 PM, The Wolves said:

How many servants, children and innocent women of the Hoare family were burned to death by Aegon. 

The fact that we don't have their names means that it never happened?

[The Wolves]

59 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

 

The fact that we don't have their names means that it never happened?

Did I say that? 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

23 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Did I say that? 

Truth be told, no you didn't. It just looked like that.

[Wall Flower]

8 hours ago, John Doe said:

I'm guessing those who were in the castle at the time when Aegon burned it down like a candle. At least no evacuation of servants by Aegon's forces have been reported to my knowledge. 

Harren holed up in his fortress because he was outnumbered after the Riverland lords freely joined Aegon, due to the brutal oppression of the Riverlands by the Ironborn overlords (themselves conquerors). Aegon offered generous terms in the circumstances (lordship of the Iron Islands for Harren and his sons) but Harren arrogantly thought his castle impregnable. Harren was offered a chance to live as a ruler but chose not to take it, so he and his sons joined the many thousands of enslaved workers who had died building Harren's vanity project.

Tywin set out to provoke the Reynes and Tarbecks into open rebellion because it was always his plan to crush them utterly - he never had any intention of letting them off the hook for their earlier humiliation of House Lannister.

Visenya's tactic at the Eyrie was to get what she wanted (submission) by intimidation and implied threat. No different, in essence from Tywin sending that musician to Lord Farman to play the Rains of Castamere.

[Lion of the West]

Forget about it.

[Humble Maester]

12 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Tywin set out to provoke the Reynes and Tarbecks into open rebellion because it was always his plan to crush them utterly - he never had any intention of letting them off the hook for their earlier humiliation of House Lannister.

That is fair enough, though I think it depends on what you mean by "off the hook". Considering all the crimes and transgressions of those two families against their overlord and the other lords of Westerlands I believe that had they actually surrendered as Tywin demanded they could had well gotten out of it with their heads but possibly with a huge amount of hostages and with their lands so diminished they'd barely rival landed knights. Tywin was not about to let them continue what they had been doing in the past but I don't think he was necessarily after their blood, or if he was after blood it would had only been the main transgressors, ie. the heads of the heads of the families.

Of course it was fairly convenient for Tywin that both refused his demands to surrender, as that built up his reputation and prestige far more than if they had actually surrendered and gotten strictly punished, and he had legitimate reason to destroy both of them, meaning his (father's) other vassals could not complain.

[John Doe]

13 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Harren holed up in his fortress because he was outnumbered after the Riverland lords freely joined Aegon, due to the brutal oppression of the Riverlands by the Ironborn overlords (themselves conquerors). Aegon offered generous terms in the circumstances (lordship of the Iron Islands for Harren and his sons) but Harren arrogantly thought his castle impregnable. Harren was offered a chance to live as a ruler but chose not to take it, so he and his sons joined the many thousands of enslaved workers who had died building Harren's vanity project.

Tywin set out to provoke the Reynes and Tarbecks into open rebellion because it was always his plan to crush them utterly - he never had any intention of letting them off the hook for their earlier humiliation of House Lannister.

Visenya's tactic at the Eyrie was to get what she wanted (submission) by intimidation and implied threat. No different, in essence from Tywin sending that musician to Lord Farman to play the Rains of Castamere.

And his sons did what to earn that? Were all of them even adults? Seems unlikely. And you think they had no servants or other people in the castle when Aegon burned it down?

 

Your account about Tywin is wrong though. He didn't "provoke" them into rebellion, he demanded them, as their liege, to answer for their crimes (taking family members of their liege hostage to threaten their liege after they refused to pay back their loans, to mention the most glaring example), which is fair enough. After he defeated the Tarbecks, the Reynes, who arrogantly thought their castle impregnable, instead of accepting his generous terms, sent their own terms, demanding the surrender of their liege. Since storming was no option, it is not surprising that the castle was flooded. 

There is really no difference between the two actions,

[Jon's Queen Consort]

14 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Tywin set out to provoke the Reynes and Tarbecks into open rebellion because it was always his plan to crush them utterly - he never had any intention of letting them off the hook for their earlier humiliation of House Lannister.

I cannot say if you are kiddng or not. Maybe you forget the part in WOIAF where we learn about their actions.=

14 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Visenya's tactic at the Eyrie was to get what she wanted (submission) by intimidation and implied threat. No different, in essence from Tywin sending that musician to Lord Farman to play the Rains of Castamere.

Because we all know the great dragonrider and warrior who was called Musician and his great dragon.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On November 9, 2016 at 0:49 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Visenya was pointed at that and people dare to call that kind...

Can u rephrase? I do apologize 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Can u rephrase? I do apologize 

I guess that I should had used the sarcasm font.

[John Doe]

4 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I cannot say if you are kiddng or not. Maybe you forget the part in WOIAF where we learn about their actions.=

You know, when you want criminals to be punished, you are actually just provoking them into doing more crimes.

[LordImp]

On 10. oktober 2016 at 3:51 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Both had no children and their *children* were bastards.

Are you  refering to A+J= C,J and T? 

I agree that neither Aenys and Maegor where Aegons sons. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

21 hours ago, LordImp said:

Are you  refering to A+J= C,J and T? 

I agree that neither Aenys and Maegor where Aegons sons. 

It was mostly a joke. I don't believe that Tywin's children are not his.

22 hours ago, John Doe said:

You know, when you want criminals to be punished, you are actually just provoking them into doing more crimes.

Obviously. Or the fact that Tywin's surname isn't Targaryen is why people hate him.

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Or the fact that Tywin's surname isn't Targaryen is why people hate him.

Do you really think that this is the reason that people dislike Tywin, because he's not a Targaryen? 

[Wall Flower]

10 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

It was mostly a joke. I don't believe that Tywin's children are not his.

Obviously. Or the fact that Tywin's surname isn't Targaryen is why people hate him.

I'm not particularly pro-Targaryen - I think they are interesting in a Plantagenet sort of way but pretty variable as rulers and people (Aegon the Unworthy is definitely on my most hated list). I do think they have always been intended to play a part in defending Westeros in the War for the Dawn.

Hating Tywin just comes so easily, even to his own children, and has more to do with his many crimes, such as:

Ordering the gang rape of a young girl and forcing his son to participate;

Employing and protecting soulless monsters like Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch for many years to do his dirty work, including rape, child murder and torture;

Pretending to come to the aid of King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion and then ordering the brutal sacking of the city, including the rape and murder of women (common and royal) and the slaughter of their children (common and royal);

Reacting to the taking of Tyrion by Cat, not by seeking justice from his son-in-law the King (still alive at that point) but by breaking the King's peace and ordering his monsters to ravish the Riverlands and its people (despite neither Hoster or Edmure having been involved in Tyrion's kidnapping), and

Conspiring with Walder Frey to break one of the most sacred tenets of Westerosi society, guest right, in order to murder Robb Stark and many of his men at a Wedding.

I'm sure there's more but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

18 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Do you really think that this is the reason that people dislike Tywin, because he's not a Targaryen? 

Yes, if he was a Targ or a Stark people would had found numberless excuses for his actions. 

9 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Hating Tywin just comes so easily, even to his own children, and has more to do with his many crimes, such as:

Most of the Targs could be blamed for more crimes than that and still people turn the blind eye. When it comes to Aegon people look the dragons and forget the numberless people he and his sisters killed in order to make themselves the royal family. 

[The Wolves]

54 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Yes, if he was a Targ or a Stark people would had found numberless excuses for his actions. 

Most of the Targs could be blamed for more crimes than that and still people turn the blind eye. When it comes to Aegon people look the dragons and forget the numberless people he and his sisters killed in order to make themselves the royal family. 

Please, Houses Arryn, Stark, and Lannister who have reigned thousands of years have murdered and raped countless numbers of people in their quest to rule the Westerlands, Vale and North more than Aegon and his sisters ever did to rule Westeros. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Please, Houses Arryn, Stark, and Lannister who have reigned thousands of years have murdered and raped countless numbers of people in their quest to rule the Westerlands, Vale and North more than Aegon and his sisters ever did to rule Westeros. 

You can't compare a house 10000 years old with one person or a 10000 years old house to a 280 years old one. You can compare two persons and in the comparison between Aegon and Tywin the first was the one who created havoc and bloodbath driven only by his egomania.

But you are right. In 10000 years the Westerosi High Lords have created many wars. The Valyrians in just 280 years created 12 wars.  6 of them were civil wars within their family, 4 wars in order to oppress the rest of Westeros, 1 of them was a civil war caused by them one because their incestuous marriages and the last one because they broke the feudal contract.

[John Doe]

7 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Please, Houses Arryn, Stark, and Lannister who have reigned thousands of years have murdered and raped countless numbers of people in their quest to rule the Westerlands, Vale and North more than Aegon and his sisters ever did to rule Westeros. 

That's like saying mass murder doesn't matter because over the history of human existence many more people died. 

17 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

ating Tywin just comes so easily, even to his own children, and has more to do with his many crimes, such as:

Ordering the gang rape of a young girl and forcing his son to participate;

Employing and protecting soulless monsters like Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch for many years to do his dirty work, including rape, child murder and torture;

Pretending to come to the aid of King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion and then ordering the brutal sacking of the city, including the rape and murder of women (common and royal) and the slaughter of their children (common and royal);

Reacting to the taking of Tyrion by Cat, not by seeking justice from his son-in-law the King (still alive at that point) but by breaking the King's peace and ordering his monsters to ravish the Riverlands and its people (despite neither Hoster or Edmure having been involved in Tyrion's kidnapping), and

Conspiring with Walder Frey to break one of the most sacred tenets of Westerosi society, guest right, in order to murder Robb Stark and many of his men at a Wedding.

I'm sure there's more but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

 

Only Tyrion hates his father, neither Jaime nor Cersei do. 

The gang rape is true. 

Over how many years really? One, maybe two? The realm was at peace for most of the time, a peace that largely benefited from Tywin's work as Hand. 

Did he order the sacking or did it just happen? We don't know. Generally, cities who offered resistance were sacked in medieval times, and we know there was fighting in the streets.

A Chevauchee was a pretty common tactic at the time, Robb does it as well and northeners even ravage the lands of their allies, the Riverlands, just like the Westerlanders do. 

Walder Frey did it, and Walder Frey got the blame. On Tywin's part, is was smart and it cost a lot fewer lives than a longer war would have. It was deceitfull, but so was ambushing Jaime's army.