Aegon the Conqueror and Tywin Lannister

[liongate122]

Both were pragmatic and ruthless politicians with enerourms egos. Aegon: Converted for political reasons to the Faith of the Seven,  Field of Fire, destruction of Harrenhal , rewarded the Tullys and Tyrells for their fealty  Tywin: "When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.", complete extermination of the Reynes and Tarbecks, rewarded the Freys and Boltons for their "services"

[James Steller]

They also both fathered sons who failed to live up to their expectations.

[liongate122]

Yeah, though IMO if Aenys and Maegor would have worked together they'd be quite capable.

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, liongate122 said:

Yeah, though IMO if Aenys and Maegor would have worked together they'd be quite capable.

Same with Tyrion and Jaime.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Both had no children and their *children* were bastards.

[Lion of the West]

13 hours ago, James Steller said:

They also both fathered sons who failed to live up to their expectations.

Very much this. Only the dragons kept the Targaryens in the game and the Lannisters are sadly lacking for any dragons.

[devilish]

15 hours ago, liongate122 said:

Both were pragmatic and ruthless politicians with enerourms egos. Aegon: Converted for political reasons to the Faith of the Seven,  Field of Fire, destruction of Harrenhal , rewarded the Tullys and Tyrells for their fealty  Tywin: "When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.", complete extermination of the Reynes and Tarbecks, rewarded the Freys and Boltons for their "services"

There's a big difference between Aegon and Tywin

a- Aegon always fought from the front. He refused the Durrandon's offer (ie marrying Argella and have access to their army) and either his sisters/half brother or/and himself were always at the thick of the battle. Tywin preferred others to do his work (he sat out of for most of Robert's rebellion, he sat out during the Greyjoy rebellion and he had Roose/Walder sorting Robb's problem). 

b- Tywin was cursed with a level of rage which often proved counterproductive. The way he treated Tyrion or Elia and her children wasn't only unnecessary for the Lannister's greater scheme but proved counterproductive and ended up costing his life. Aegon only lost it when his baby sister/wife was killed, which is only fair, really.

c- Aegon was pretty naive in terms of tactics and relied on his dragons to bail him out everytime. He resisted the idea of having the KG (until some assassins nearly killed him) and only came out of the need for KL to have walls after the city was actually built. Tywin never thought himself to be invincible, there again he never had dragons.

In few words Aegon is like Robert with Dragons and less alcohol/women. He's kind but can lose it when his family is threatened, he's honourable, he's fights from the front and he's good tactically but he's hardly Napoleon Bonaparte and he's quite charismatic (those little dragons do help on that). Tywin is the combination of his three children. He's got Jamie's looks, Tywin's brilliance and Cersei's rage. 

 

 

[Lion of the West]

17 minutes ago, devilish said:

There's a big difference between Aegon and Tywin

a- Aegon always fought from the front. He refused the Durrandon's offer (ie marrying Argella and have access to their army) and either his sisters/half brother or/and himself were always at the thick of the battle. Tywin preferred others to do his work (he sat out of for most of Robert's rebellion, he sat out during the Greyjoy rebellion and he had Roose/Walder sorting Robb's problem). 

b- Tywin was cursed with a level of rage which often proved counterproductive. The way he treated Tyrion or Elia and her children wasn't only unnecessary for the Lannister's greater scheme but proved counterproductive and ended up costing his life. Aegon only lost it when his baby sister/wife was killed, which is only fair, really.

c- Aegon was pretty naive in terms of tactics and relied on his dragons to bail him out everytime. He resisted the idea of having the KG (until some assassins nearly killed him) and only came out of the need for KL to have walls after the city was actually built. Tywin never thought himself to be invincible, there again he never had dragons.

In few words Aegon is like Robert with Dragons and less alcohol/women. He's kind but can lose it when his family is threatened, he's honourable, he's fights from the front and he's good tactically but he's hardly Napoleon Bonaparte and he's quite charismatic (those little dragons do help on that). Tywin is the combination of his three children. He's got Jamie's looks, Tywin's brilliance and Cersei's rage. 

 

 

The bolded parts are directly incorrect. Tywin took personal part in the War of NInepenny Kings, he took part in the Greyjoy Rebellion -

"With his Wardens of the West and North beside him, Robert forced landings on Pyke, Great Wyk, Harlaw and Orkmont..." World Book, Iron Islands

- he put down the Reynes and Tarbecks in person and he did not hesitate to ride with a host to where he would be positioned to fight both Stark and Arryn if they would seek to interviene with the war in the Riverlands. So to saty that he preferres to to let others do his work don't seem like a trait for him, as he tends to do his own work. Even while there are instances where he lets others do the dirty work, its essentially a minority of the time.

[Adam Yozza]

2 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

The bolded parts are directly incorrect. Tywin took personal part in the War of NInepenny Kings, he took part in the Greyjoy Rebellion - "With his Wardens of the West and North beside him, Robert forced landings on Pyke, Great Wyk, Harlaw and Orkmont..." World Book, Iron Islands - he put down the Reynes and Tarbecks in person and he did not hesitate to ride with a host to where he would be positioned to fight both Stark and Arryn if they would seek to interviene with the war in the Riverlands. So to saty that he preferres to to let others do his work don't seem like a trait for him, as he tends to do his own work.

I can understand where devilish is coming from though. I always read him as someone who'd do his own dirty work either when he had no choice (Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion) or no chance of defeat (Greyjoy Rebellion), but that if he had the opportunity to get someone else to do it for him he would jump at it (Red Wedding, Roberts Rebellion)

[The Lord Bastard]

22 hours ago, liongate122 said:

Both were pragmatic and ruthless politicians with enerourms egos. Aegon: Converted for political reasons to the Faith of the Seven,  Field of Fire, destruction of Harrenhal , rewarded the Tullys and Tyrells for their fealty  Tywin: "When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.", complete extermination of the Reynes and Tarbecks, rewarded the Freys and Boltons for their "services"

King Torrhen Stark didn't get much out of Aegon to be honest. He was named Warden of the North and Lord of Winterfell which was a downgrade overall compared to the Tullys and Tyrells. 

Apparently several messages went back and forth between Aegon's and Torrhen's camps. Maybe the North was allowed to continue worshiping the Old Gods without being called heathens? 

[Trigger Warning]

He got to remain ruler albeit as a vassal of the region he ruled beforehand instead of being roasted alive, the deal's pretty good. 

[The Lord Bastard]

2 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

He got to remain ruler albeit as a vassal of the region he ruled beforehand instead of being roasted alive, the deal's pretty good. 

Well the notion of "bringing steel and fire to your enemies when they defy you" but "helping them back to their feet when they kneel" suggests that the defeated party get rewarded for bending the knee. Keeping your life is pretty much a given, it's the whole point of surrendering. 

I'm thinking Torrhen asked for some lands south of the neck but was refused to accommodate the Tullys, who I believe were the first to join Aegon? 

[Trigger Warning]

The choice between conquest and retaining all lands is a reward in itself. 

He's literally choosing between being destroyed like the Field of Fire or retaining basically everything he already has but in vassalage. He really doesn't need more incentive other than that. Aegon could strip him of lands and it would still be the better choice. 

Tywin doesn't reward anyone who yields, they take hostages and tribute as recompense. Rewards are only given when service is given beyond reaffirming their fealty. 

If a war was fought between Aegon and Torrhen until they reached terms it would be different but it's not like that, it's surrender or be destroyed and Torrhen recognises he can't match the destructive power of the dragons, he's not holding enough cards to make demands nor is Aegon in a weak enough position relatively to need to offer further concessions. 

 

[liongate122]

7 hours ago, devilish said:

There's a big difference between Aegon and Tywin

a- Aegon always fought from the front. He refused the Durrandon's offer (ie marrying Argella and have access to their army) and either his sisters/half brother or/and himself were always at the thick of the battle. Tywin preferred others to do his work (he sat out of for most of Robert's rebellion, he sat out during the Greyjoy rebellion and he had Roose/Walder sorting Robb's problem). 

b- Tywin was cursed with a level of rage which often proved counterproductive. The way he treated Tyrion or Elia and her children wasn't only unnecessary for the Lannister's greater scheme but proved counterproductive and ended up costing his life. Aegon only lost it when his baby sister/wife was killed, which is only fair, really.

c- Aegon was pretty naive in terms of tactics and relied on his dragons to bail him out everytime. He resisted the idea of having the KG (until some assassins nearly killed him) and only came out of the need for KL to have walls after the city was actually built. Tywin never thought himself to be invincible, there again he never had dragons.

In few words Aegon is like Robert with Dragons and less alcohol/women. He's kind but can lose it when his family is threatened, he's honourable, he's fights from the front and he's good tactically but he's hardly Napoleon Bonaparte and he's quite charismatic (those little dragons do help on that). Tywin is the combination of his three children. He's got Jamie's looks, Tywin's brilliance and Cersei's rage. 

 

 

I wouldn't call a guy who conquers (almost) a whole continent by force for no apparently reason, but his ego "kind". Aegon dreamed of a new valyrian Empire but this time in the west and ruled only by his family. Tywin had similar visions with Westeros, but was in a different starting position and had no dragons. I also don't get the "honorable" part.  He provoked Durrandon on purpose (offers Orys (a bastard's) hand for the king's only daughter) to get a casus belli for his conquest. The "honorable" Aegon also gave the old and independent kingdoms of Westeros two choices: submission or fire. The rest is more arrogance than naivete.

[devilish]

5 hours ago, liongate122 said:

I wouldn't call a guy who conquers (almost) a whole continent by force for no apparently reason, but his ego "kind". Aegon dreamed of a new valyrian Empire but this time in the west and ruled only by his family. Tywin had similar visions with Westeros, but was in a different starting position and had no dragons. I also don't get the "honorable" part.  He provoked Durrandon on purpose (offers Orys (a bastard's) hand for the king's only daughter) to get a casus belli for his conquest. The "honorable" Aegon also gave the old and independent kingdoms of Westeros two choices: submission or fire. The rest is more arrogance than naivete.

He invaded an entire continent because he could, which is fair enough and in line to what most people in Westeros would do, if given the opportunity.Surely you can't expect Aegon to sit out on that pathetic rock of his when he had a trump card that would make him win most of his wars, don't you? The Durrandon's deal wasn't an act of provocation but more an act of Aegon being naive (similar to the one regarding the KG and building walls around KL)..He felt that his sister wives wouldn't like sharing their bed with someone from a different gene pool and he'd rather lose an army then facing them an argument. Tywin wouldn't give a feck of what his relatives would say. 

If Tywin was in Aegon's shoes he would have gone full Rains of Castamere against the Lannister king but he didn't. Instead all Aegon wanted was for them to bend the knee, no hostages, no unnecessary shows of cruelty as show of power, nothing. Tywin would have burnt the Eyrie down. How dare they refuse to bend the knee to him?  Instead Aegon took young Ronnel on a dragon's ride and Ronnel bent the knee. Again, no hostages, no unneccessary shows of cruelty as show of power nothing. Aegon rewarded those who bent the knee and gave people fair deals. The Tullys and the Tyrells took over the Reach and the Riverlands but every bannerman knew that they had Aegon's back. Tywin pretty left the Boltons to fend on their own. He couldn't even spare Sansa to marry Roose as he wanted Tyrion to marry her and in the future take the North under Roose's nose. FFS at one point the man had dragons and 6 regions who pledged loyalty to him, yet he pitched his tent on the weakest region (the Crownlands) not to piss his bannermen off.

I am not saying that Tywin is bad, Aegon is good. Aegon could rely on dragons (and sometimes he overdid it). Tywin didn't had this luxury. All I am saying is that they are different. Without dragons at play, Tywin (actually Gregor, unlike Aegon, Tywin rarely leads from the front) would eat Aegon for breakfast

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

16 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

 Both had no children and their *children* were bastards.

Who in gods name do you imagine fathered Maegor and Aenys? 

 

I disagree with this comparision strongly. I want to start withthe simple. To be quite honest, there is no one who is considered a "good" leader like Tywin in the ASOIAF world. There are tyrants who murdered people while they have guest right, there were despicable cravens who sent monsters to kill for them. Tywin is evil, and I hate people who defend him. He is a hitleresq monster who kills and rapes and destroys everything in his path. Aegon my have conquered. So did many in real and fake histories, but Tywin Lannister is a despot. He is a coward who has no cares except himself. Even his own children hate him for Christ sake. This is not a man to be idolized. His father who he hated so much was braver than him. At least he had the humility to let others laugh at him instead of killing anyone who did.

[SeanF]

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 1:42 AM, liongate122 said:

Both were pragmatic and ruthless politicians with enerourms egos. Aegon: Converted for political reasons to the Faith of the Seven,  Field of Fire, destruction of Harrenhal , rewarded the Tullys and Tyrells for their fealty  Tywin: "When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.", complete extermination of the Reynes and Tarbecks, rewarded the Freys and Boltons for their "services"

It's much the same.  Those who went to their knees were allowed to keep some or all of their lands, but they weren't rewarded. They simply weren't killed or exiled.

In the case of Torrhen Stark, he lost the title of King, but he did keep the rule of the North, which is largely autonomous anyway.

[SeanF]

Aegon seems to have been less ruthless than Tywin.  He wiped out Harren and his family, and inflicted huge casualties in battle, but doesn't seem to have carried out campaigns of terror against civilians, in the way that Tywin did.  Nor is there any equivalent on the part of Aegon, of the rape and murder of Elia and her children, or the Red Wedding.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Who in gods name do you imagine fathered Maegor and Aenys? 

For Aenys one of Rhaenys' lovers and Maegor was at least conceived by magic.

[Lion of the West]

7 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Who in gods name do you imagine fathered Maegor and Aenys? 

 

I disagree with this comparision strongly. I want to start withthe simple. To be quite honest, there is no one who is considered a "good" leader like Tywin in the ASOIAF world. There are tyrants who murdered people while they have guest right, there were despicable cravens who sent monsters to kill for them. Tywin is evil, and I hate people who defend him. He is a hitleresq monster who kills and rapes and destroys everything in his path. Aegon my have conquered. So did many in real and fake histories, but Tywin Lannister is a despot. He is a coward who has no cares except himself. Even his own children hate him for Christ sake. This is not a man to be idolized. His father who he hated so much was braver than him. At least he had the humility to let others laugh at him instead of killing anyone who did.

Actually, there are a fair few people who are considered good leaders despite not being the manifestation of chivalry, like Baelor Breakspear. The most noted would be Bloodraven.

For the first part to refute Tywin hasn't killed anyone who he had given guest rights, in no way did he force Frey or Bolton to do this, and he did not tell them they must do the Red Wedding. That's on them. Its on Tywin to accept their plan, but don't pretend he came up with it or carried it out.

For the second part, of course Tywin sends monsters to kill for him, who else would he send and do you think that he can do all his army's work by himself? Tywin is at war and he does not owe his protection to his enemies and even less to rebels. It would be like Bloodraven being charged with murder after killing Daemon Blackfyre and his sons as the Redgrass Field.

Thirdly, I suppose you will hate me a great deal then, but I can live with that.

Fourthly, Tywin has about nothing in common with Hitler and in fact is almost the opposite of Hitler, which you would know if you had any greater interest in history.

Fifthly, its very clear that Tywin cares a great deal about his family. There is a reason as to why he aimed for Cersei to marry a future king, why he provided with his brother Kevan with lands after the war, why he wanted the search for Tyrek to go on and why he tried his best to make Tommen into a proper king without the foolishness that has went on with Aerys II and Joffrey.

And finally, Tytos Lannister was not a brave man. He was silly man who meekly accepted to be tormented and bullied around despite having it in his power to change it. When you refuse to do things, and others suffers from your inactivity, it has passed beyond humility.

6 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I disagree, we see very little of Tywin in the books and the one time we do see him fight he is so far removed from any of the actual fighting he may as well be using a map and messengers. He minimizes risk as much as possible. At the end of AGOT he's extremely confident he can win against the green boy from the North and never felt the fighting would last or be as serious as it was. Most of the cult of personality around Tywin has very little direct proof in the text. When we see him through Tyrion/Jaime he's always cold and calculated, having discussed and tried to control possible outcomes before any action is taken. This is why he's always been masterful at playing the game and influencing the perception of the court. All the events we see from Sansa at court are very clearly staged and she refers to the players as lapdogs. He does this all the time, it's his M.O., not to mention he has the Mountain and the Hound around for a reason. If that's not evidence of how he has others do his dirty work on a regular basis idk what is.

I wouldn't say that we see very little of him. He is rather present after the Blackwater up to his murder by Tyrion.

Doing his job don't include rushing ahead at some 60+ years of age and get killed. It includes leading and he does that very well.

And I totally agree that Tywin made mistakes and has his flaws. He is a human, and not a omi-everything god.

As for Tywin's fandom, its in my example based on his leadership, cool strategic mind and foresight. So I don't really see the points presented here.