hiemal Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 On 11/12/2016 at 5:12 PM, ravenous reader said: More precisely the cavernous dungeons of the 'hollow hill' as vagina (like Tobho Mott's womb-tomb of the 'dark materials') from which the flaming red sword emerges after (re-)forging... @Wizz-The-Smith Sticking with the imagery of swords and caves: I think it is significant that the the World of Ice and Fire mentions thousands of caves surrounding the city of Qohor- where the blood of children has been used in attempts to recreate Valyrian steel. The link between creating swords of metallic alloys and sexual reproduction is brought to the fore in the Lighbringer myth and I think the cave imagery is part and parcel with that. Not to mention, as someone pointed out, the Mithraic aspect. In Qohor we have Planetos' Black Goat of the Wood with a Thousand Young surrounded by a thousand caves and attempts to make a thousand swords! Inverted Mithraism, Nox Invictus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share Posted January 29, 2017 On 28/01/2017 at 2:57 PM, Lost Melnibonean said: Is Mother Mole just a woods witch? Or is she a greenseer? And do those caves remind you of the foundation of Hightower and the Whispers? Hi @Lost Melnibonean. Nice catch linking the mother mole to the caves at Hardhome. I’m not sure she is a greenseer but the Hermit’s and woods witches do seem drawn to the caves. There is the Hermit hole on the QI where the healers would 'work wonders' and the GoHH having the old gods whisper to her in her sleep which is probably where she gets her accurate information from etc… Now another woods witch having a prophetic vision of safety via the boats at Hardhome, which we know to be an accurate vision. Are they more susceptible to receiving such dreams from the old gods/greenseers? Are the magic/visions of these prophetic characters being sent/controlled by the old gods, and are they trying to help? It seems like help, the boats have arrived after all, or was it a hindrance, it does seem like hell on Planetos there right now. Those damn visions are never quite what they seem. The caves do remind me of The Whispers but not so much the Hightower. The Hightower’s base is fused black stone made with dragon sorcery and wrought into maze like tunnels and vaults. The Maesters comment on its human like design/structure. The Whispers however I would agree does have some similarities. They are both named for the sounds the caves make, the previously mentioned 'Whispers' and the caves of Hardhome are known as the ‘screaming’ caves. They are both next to the sea so there is an opportunity for a landing dock of some sort at Hardhome like we find at the Whispers. Casterly Rock and Storm’s End have this set up as well. Having the woods witch association reminds me of the woods witch Harlon and Hern found dwelling at Horn Hill and the GoHH dwelling her hollow hill in the RL’s. Any sort of cave system like the one at Hardhome is worthy of consideration as having seen greenseers make them their home in the past. There is a very good chance if one were to investigate the caves at Hardhome a little further you would find more carvings and various CotF signature’s. As a side note, these two sets of caves have names which we can associate with greenseeing, Bloodraven, Bran, the ravens and the wind all 'whisper and scream' and we look for such key words when searching for evidence in @evita mgfs's Bran re-read thread. Thanks LM, good to have that text here in this thread as well. What's your take on it? Potential greenseers, or agents of the old gods receiving messages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share Posted January 29, 2017 On 28/01/2017 at 5:37 PM, hiemal said: Sticking with the imagery of swords and caves: I think it is significant that the the World of Ice and Fire mentions thousands of caves surrounding the city of Qohor- where the blood of children has been used in attempts to recreate Valyrian steel. The link between creating swords of metallic alloys and sexual reproduction is brought to the fore in the Lighbringer myth and I think the cave imagery is part and parcel with that. Hi Hiemal. I agree the sexual aspect of the cave imagery you mention is important. The cave is actually identified with the womb of Mother Earth, a place for symbolic birth and regeneration. Megalithic tombs and barrow-mounds were also designed as ‘wombs’ with the entrance to the barrow resembling the female anatomy to enable the rebirth of their dead into the next life. Plus ‘tomb’ and ‘womb’ were related linguistically. The Greek ‘tumbos’ and Latin ‘tumulus’ were cognates of the word ‘tumere’, or to swell, to be pregnant. The word "tummy" is thought to have come from the same root. But I must confess to only recently reading up on this following a couple of the posts on the thread, and I haven’t researched much further on the matter. Let alone formulate a decent post on the subject, the research continues. I know @ravenous reader mentioned exploring this aspect further, I would love to read your thoughts, as always RR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 4 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Hi Hiemal. I agree the sexual aspect of the cave imagery you mention is important. The cave is actually identified with the womb of Mother Earth, a place for symbolic birth and regeneration. Megalithic tombs and barrow-mounds were also designed as ‘wombs’ with the entrance to the barrow resembling the female anatomy to enable the rebirth of their dead into the next life. Plus ‘tomb’ and ‘womb’ were related linguistically. The Greek ‘tumbos’ and Latin ‘tumulus’ were cognates of the word ‘tumere’, or to swell, to be pregnant. The word "tummy" is thought to have come from the same root. But I must confess to only recently reading up on this following a couple of the posts on the thread, and I haven’t researched much further on the matter. Let alone formulate a decent post on the subject, the research continues. I know @ravenous reader mentioned exploring this aspect further, I would love to read your thoughts, as always RR. Off topic comment, but I wanted to point out realy quickly that Sansa refers to her "tummy" a lot, and the feeling of bats fluttering within... something I always thought was odd and too young of a phrase for her to say... but this makes sense. Thanks because I did not know this. As a matter of fact, Sansa is the only one in the story to use this word. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=tummy&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=tmk&scope[]=acok&scope[]=twow&scope[]=twoiaf&scope[]=asos&scope[]=thk&scope[]=trp&scope[]=affc&scope[]=tss&scope[]=tpatq Ok, OT ramble over. Back to inserting swords into caves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 4 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Hi @Lost Melnibonean. Nice catch linking the mother mole to the caves at Hardhome. I’m not sure she is a greenseer but the Hermit’s and woods witches do seem drawn to the caves. There is the Hermit hole on the QI where the healers would 'work wonders' and the GoHH having the old gods whisper to her in her sleep which is probably where she gets her accurate information from etc… Now another woods witch having a prophetic vision of safety via the boats at Hardhome, which we know to be an accurate vision. Are they more susceptible to receiving such dreams from the old gods/greenseers? Are the magic/visions of these prophetic characters being sent/controlled by the old gods, and are they trying to help? It seems like help, the boats have arrived after all, or was it a hindrance, it does seem like hell on Planetos there right now. Those damn visions are never quite what they seem. The caves do remind me of The Whispers but not so much the Hightower. The Hightower’s base is fused black stone made with dragon sorcery and wrought into maze like tunnels and vaults. The Maesters comment on its human like design/structure. The Whispers however I would agree does have some similarities. They are both named for the sounds the caves make, the previously mentioned 'Whispers' and the caves of Hardhome are known as the ‘screaming’ caves. They are both next to the sea so there is an opportunity for a landing dock of some sort at Hardhome like we find at the Whispers. Casterly Rock and Storm’s End have this set up as well. Having the woods witch association reminds me of the woods witch Harlon and Hern found dwelling at Horn Hill and the GoHH dwelling her hollow hill in the RL’s. Any sort of cave system like the one at Hardhome is worthy of consideration as having seen greenseers make them their home in the past. There is a very good chance if one were to investigate the caves at Hardhome a little further you would find more carvings and various CotF signature’s. As a side note, these two sets of caves have names which we can associate with greenseeing, Bloodraven, Bran, the ravens and the wind all 'whisper and scream' and we look for such key words when searching for evidence in @evita mgfs's Bran re-read thread. Thanks LM, good to have that text here in this thread as well. What's your take on it? Potential greenseers, or agents of the old gods receiving messages? I was struck by the fact that "she made her home in a burrow beneath a hollow tree." That reminded me of Beric, the Ghost of High Heart, the Grey King, and of course Bloodraven sitting on their weirwood thrones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Off topic comment, but I wanted to point out realy quickly that Sansa refers to her "tummy" a lot, and the feeling of bats fluttering within... something I always thought was odd and too young of a phrase for her to say... but this makes sense. Thanks because I did not know this. As a matter of fact, Sansa is the only one in the story to use this word. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=tummy&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc Ok, OT ramble over. Back to inserting swords into caves. Bats? I recall the fluttering but I don't recall the bats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Bats? I recall the fluttering but I don't recall the bats. A Storm of Swords - Sansa IV Tyrion scarce touched his food, Sansa noticed, though he drank several cups of the wine. For herself, she tried a little of the Dornish eggs, but the peppers burned her mouth. Otherwise she only nibbled at the fruit and fish and honeycakes. Every time Joffrey looked at her, her tummy got so fluttery that she felt as though she'd swallowed a bat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 19 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Off topic comment, but I wanted to point out realy quickly that Sansa refers to her "tummy" a lot, and the feeling of bats fluttering within... something I always thought was odd and too young of a phrase for her to say... but this makes sense. Thanks because I did not know this. No problem. Yes, the symbolism of the bat is much the same [As could be expected I suppose] In similar fashion to the cave symbolism, the bat is a symbol of rebirth as it is a creature that lives in the belly [or tummy ] of 'Mother Earth'. They emerge from the womb-like caves every evening at dusk, therefore 'reborn' from the womb every evening. If associated with bat symbolism you are normally extremely aware of your surroundings. Sometimes you can be overly sensitive to the feelings of others, and you are also perceptive on a psychic level, thus prone to having prophetic dreams. Sounds half Sansa half greenseer. I haven't got more to add at the moment, but it continues to amaze me how ridiculously detailed these books are. Down to the tiniest bit of information, George wraps it all up with bows on. Cheers Leech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 20 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I was struck by the fact that "she made her home in a burrow beneath a hollow tree." That reminded me of Beric, the Ghost of High Heart, the Grey King, and of course Bloodraven sitting on their weirwood thrones. Hey LM. Good points, I agree the fact she made her home in the burrow beneath a 'hollow' tree is worthy of greenseer consideration straight away. I am reluctant to label her as such because of the other examples we get of woods witch's, hermits/healers etc... They all seem drawn to the caves and this may be where their powers/prophecy come from, but at the moment I tend to see them as potential agents of the old gods/greenseers dwelling their caves/hollows. [GoHH etc] However, I am always open minded on such matters, and I can see the logic in what you're proposing for sure. The text is tantalising and could well suggest greenseer action, whether by the individual or indeed other means. Cheers LM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: No problem. Yes, the symbolism of the bat is much the same [As could be expected I suppose] In similar fashion to the cave symbolism, the bat is a symbol of rebirth as it is a creature that lives in the belly [or tummy ] of 'Mother Earth'. They emerge from the womb-like caves every evening at dusk, therefore 'reborn' from the womb every evening. If associated with bat symbolism you are normally extremely aware of your surroundings. Sometimes you can be overly sensitive to the feelings of others, and you are also perceptive on a psychic level, thus prone to having prophetic dreams. Sounds half Sansa half greenseer. I haven't got more to add at the moment, but it continues to amaze me how ridiculously detailed these books are. Down to the tiniest bit of information, George wraps it all up with bows on. Cheers Leech. If bats are (or have previously been) psychopomps like the ravens seem to be, as their association with Harrenhall so close to the Isle of faces and their skeletal remains in Bloodraven's hollow hill, then the womb/tummy symbology becomes even more telling, less a dream than a raven from the Old Gods- black wings, black words. I'm going to have to pay attention to what came out of Sansa's mouth after this during my next re-read project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 On 30/01/2017 at 2:10 AM, Lost Melnibonean said: I was struck by the fact that "she made her home in a burrow beneath a hollow tree." That reminded me of Beric, the Ghost of High Heart, the Grey King, and of course Bloodraven sitting on their weirwood thrones. Hi LM. I'm still not entirely convinced but Mother Mole [or woods witch's in general] being a potential greenseer candidate/s is perhaps strengthened by the tale of the Green Queen in the Stormlands. Another example of a woods witch, one in which she held the Rainwood for a generation against King Durwald I Durrandon, the Rainwood also being full of caves of course. Her name and the tale itself is certainly in support of your idea. Maybe the characters that receive these visions have the power but with no way to tap into it or become aware of it? Hence becoming agents of the old gods as they can be communicated with at some level? Perhaps Bran wouldn't have known what to do with his powers without a little guidance for example. Or of course you are straight up right in your hunch. Again thank you for pointing this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 47 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Hi LM. I'm still not entirely convinced but Mother Mole [or woods witch's in general] being a potential greenseer candidate/s is perhaps strengthened by the tale of the Green Queen in the Stormlands. Another example of a woods witch, one in which she held the Rainwood for a generation against King Durwald I Durrandon, the Rainwood also being full of caves of course. Her name and the tale itself is certainly in support of your idea. Maybe the characters that receive these visions have the power but with no way to tap into it or become aware of it? Hence becoming agents of the old gods as they can be communicated with at some level? Perhaps Bran wouldn't have known what to do with his powers without a little guidance for example. Or of course you are straight up right in your hunch. Again thank you for pointing this out. I suspect some greenseers are stoner than others. And perhaps stepping away from your throne is easier when you're just starting out and surround by an army of the undead. I'm going to go look up the Green Queen. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 24 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I suspect some greenseers are stoner than others. And perhaps stepping away from your throne is easier when you're just starting out and surround by an army of the undead. I'm going to go look up the Green Queen. Thanks! I agree. Mother Mole is one hell of a stoner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I agree. Mother Mole is one hell of a stoner. Haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I agree. Mother Mole is one hell of a stoner. Doh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I suspect some greenseers are stoner than others. And perhaps stepping away from your throne is easier when you're just starting out and surround by an army of the undead. I'm going to go look up the Green Queen. Thanks! There isn't a great deal of information on the Green Queen other than what I mentioned. Durwald however was noted to have been a particularly weak king, and it was said he ruled as far as you could piss off the walls of Storm's End. Although one might question why he was such an easy foe? Perhaps because the Green Queen was a greenseer with more power? It's hard to say for sure, but the ingredients are there. I agree there are greenseers with more power than others, Bran seems a good precedent even if still in 'training'. I think we may see evidence for that in the histories, and particularly the ruins/tales I highlight in my OP. It seems to me that some of the First Men wars would have been 'greenseer wars' and the strong Houses of the current narrative seem to be the victors more often than not. [Or the Stark's at least] Stark vs Warg King - Stark wins. Stark vs Glover - Stark wins. Gardener/Reach vs Manderly - Gardener/Reach wins. Potentially Stark vs Blackwood - Stark wins etc... The Warg King, the Glover's, the Manderly's and the Blackwood's are I think all potential 'Petty King greenseers' from history [Or Petty Kings with greenseers under their command] backing the thought of a difference in power/ability between these foes. Cheers LM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: There isn't a great deal of information on the Green Queen other than what I mentioned. Durwald however was noted to have been a particularly weak king, and it was said he ruled as far as you could piss off the walls of Storm's End. Although one might question why he was such an easy foe? Perhaps because the Green Queen was a greenseer with more power? It's hard to say for sure, but the ingredients are there. I agree there are greenseers with more power than others, Bran seems a good precedent even if still in 'training'. I think we may see evidence for that in the histories, and particularly the ruins/tales I highlight in my OP. It seems to me that some of the First Men wars would have been 'greenseer wars' and the strong Houses of the current narrative seem to be the victors more often than not. [Or the Stark's at least] Stark vs Warg King - Stark wins. Stark vs Glover - Stark wins. Gardener/Reach vs Manderly - Gardener/Reach wins. Potentially Stark vs Blackwood - Stark wins etc... The Warg King, the Glover's, the Manderly's and the Blackwood's are I think all potential 'Petty King greenseers' from history [Or Petty Kings with greenseers under their command] backing the thought of a difference in power/ability between these foes. Cheers LM. It's a shame Durwald didna have a brother like Aeron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 19 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: It's a shame Durwald didna have a brother like Aeron. Haha, yes it may have doubled the size of his kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Cecily Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 On 1/14/2017 at 2:05 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said: Hi Sweetsunray. Thank you for pointing this out, it is easily missed, great catch! Plus this example is similar to the hermit's cave we find on the Quiet Isle. Here is the text... Awesome, The Fingers is another site we can list as having potentially magic caves/caverns, and a second hermit living within the darkness of the caves. Thanks again, love it! A most interesting point indeed! I'm new to the forum and having a wonderful time reading the amazing amount of research, thought and creative writing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 10 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said: A most interesting point indeed! I'm new to the forum and having a wonderful time reading the amazing amount of research, thought and creative writing here. Hi @Prof. Cecily and welcome to the forum. Thank you for your kind words as well, that means a lot, I'm really pleased you've enjoyed the thread. I'm sure you'll have a great time here, so many threads and good posters to sink your teeth into. Cheers Prof. Cecily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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