The caves are timeless: Hollow hills. Magic castles and Greenseers.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Wizz-The-Smith. 

Good catch on the three hills on the northern bank of the rush, plenty history there and possible power still lingering.

And the Kings landing underground network @ravenous reader, interesting text.

I have spied a wee gem hidden in the Westerlands.

AWOIAF The Westerlands:

"The Westerlands are a place of rugged hills and rolling plains, of misty dales and craggy shorelines, a place of blue lakes and sparkling rivers and fertile fields, of broadleaf forests that teem with game of every sort, where half-hidden doors in the sides of wooded hills open onto labyrinthine caves that wend their way through darkness to reveal unimaginable wonders and vast treasures deep beneath the earth."

Cool sounding hollow hills in the Westerlands! 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 5:46 PM, Seams said:

I think the caves and hollow hills have already been used as a refuge for people who don't want to be conquered:

Rhaenys Targaryen . . . descended upon Vaith to demand its submission, only to find the castle empty and abandoned. In the town beneath its walls, only women and children and old men remained. When asked where their lords had gone, they would only say, "Away." Rhaenys followed the river downtstream to Godsgrace, seat of House Allyrion, but it too was deserted. On she flew . . .

Finally the queen's flight took her to Sunspear, the ancient seat of House Martell, where she found the Princess of Dorne waiting in her abandoned castle....

(The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons - The Conquest)

And Arianne will stumble on something she doesn't expect in TWoW:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The wood was full of caves as well. That first night they took shelter in one of them, to get out of the wet. ... After they ate, Elia Sand turned a stick and some dry moss into a torch, and went off exploring deeper in the cave. "See that you do not go too far," Arianne told her. "Some of these caves go very deep, it is easy to get lost."

The cave proved much deeper than any of them had suspected. Beyond the stony mouth where her company had made their camp and hobbled their horses, a series of twisty passageways led down and down, with black holes snaking off to either side. Further in, the walls opened up again, and the searchers found themselves in a vast limestone cavern, larger than the great hall of a castle. Their shouts disturbed a nest of bats, who flapped about them noisily, but only distant echoes shouted back. A slow circuit of the hall revealed three further passages, one so small that it would have required them to proceed on hands and knees. "We will try the others first," the princess said. "Daemon, come with me. Garibald, Joss, you try the other one."

The passageway Arianne had chosen for herself turned steep and wet within a hundred feet. The footing grew uncertain. Once she slipped, and had to catch herself to keep from sliding. More than once she considered turning back, but she could see Ser Daemon's torch ahead and hear him calling for Elia, so she pressed on. And all at once she found herself in another cavern, five times as big as the last one, surrounded by a forest of stone columns. Daemon Sand moved to her side and raised his torch. "Look how the stone's been shaped," he said. "Those columns, and the wall there. See them?"  

"Faces," said Arianne. So many sad eyes, staring..

"This place belonged to the children of the forest."

(TWoW, Arianne I)

 

 

Hi Seams.  It must be said that it was your flair for words and post about 'fell meaning seam' that led me to the hollow hills, thanks. 

Good point about the Dornish disappearing into their caves as well.  As for Arianne..

There were also wild weirwoods growing in the Rainwood or above the caverns.

Trees pressed close on every side, shutting out the sun; hemlock and red cedars, white oaks, soldier pines that stood as tall and straight as towers, colossal sentinels, big-leaf maples, redwoods, wormtrees, even here and there a wild weirwood. Underneath their tangled branches ferns and flowers grew in profusion; sword ferns, lady ferns, bellflowers and piper’s lace, evening stars and poison kisses, liverwort, lungwort, hornwort. Mushrooms sprouted down amongst the tree roots, and from their trunks as well, pale spotted hands that caught the rain. Other trees were furred with moss, green or grey or red-tailed, and once a vivid purple. Lichens covered every rock and stone. Toadstools festered besides rotting logs. The very air seemed green.

Caverns, children of the forest, wild weirwoods, the Rainwood is greenseeing territory for sure.  Even the air seems green.  There was also a woods witch that lived there called the Green Queen. 

The castles in the wood are interesting as well...

The rainwood is known for its rain, its silences, and a wealth in fur and wood and amber.  Here the trees rule, it is said, and the castles oft seem as if they have grown from the earth instead of being built.  But the knights and lords of the rainwood have roots as deep as the trees that shelter them, and have oft proved themselves steadfast in battle, strong and stubborn and immovable.

That's all we get, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of them have access into the cave system.     

       

[Wizz-The-Smith]

@Little Scribe of Naath Thank you for your kind words. 

I always enjoy your thoughts on the forum, especially some of the Bran brainstorming involving @ravenous reader and @Macgregor of the North.  While this is all rather new, I look forward to any thoughts you may have on the subject moving forward.   

[YOVMO]

On 10/10/2016 at 4:38 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey Tijgy.  And thanks.  

That's a very cool catch, 'Brandon -- hill covered with broom'.  Love it!  I shall check out the Puns thread, thanks for the mention. [Those tags can be a pain]    

Yes I'd like to attach my praise for all the work you put in here. This is truly excellent. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:31 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

@Wizz-The-Smith. 

AWOIAF The Westerlands:

"The Westerlands are a place of rugged hills and rolling plains, of misty dales and craggy shorelines, a place of blue lakes and sparkling rivers and fertile fields, of broadleaf forests that teem with game of every sort, where half-hidden doors in the sides of wooded hills open onto labyrinthine caves that wend their way through darkness to reveal unimaginable wonders and vast treasures deep beneath the earth."

Cool sounding hollow hills in the Westerlands! 

Nice!  A lot of these woods, rolling hills and plains seem riddled with caves/caverns. [Which would make sense considering the children apparently settled on this agreement.]  There are hills in the Westerlands as far east as the Golden Tooth, known for its 'mining' of gold.  And it seems these hills were home to ancient Westerland petty kings of the First Men...

'Cerrion Lannister extended his rule as far east as the Golden Tooth and its surrounding hills, defeating three lesser kings when they made an alliance against him.'  

Perhaps the cave systems in the Westerlands connect with Casterly Rock?  Perhaps the hills of High Heart and Oldstones in the Riverlands connect?  Maybe the caves of Cape Wrath connect to Storm's End?  Could the caves of Cracklaw Point connect to the Whispers and other keeps built within the hills?  Mayhaps the caves system below the Wall links to Winterfell?  Etc, etc......  All I'm sure helps build the picture you are painting regards the survival of the peoples of Westeros. 

I have a load of notes, but had missed that one.  Good work!!   

[Wizz-The-Smith]

53 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Yes I'd like to attach my praise for all the work you put in here. This is truly excellent. 

Hi YOVMO!   

And thanks, that means a lot, I'm glad you enjoyed it.   

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

On 11/10/2016 at 7:45 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

 

Im even sticking my neck out as far as to state i think it's possible Bran himself is the one who contacts members of the line of King Durran and guides him with the building of Storms End with its magic wards and spells so that it endures every storm through thousands of years to serve as a refuge against the Storms of the Long night come again.

In this way though, I'm not implying Bran is changing the past, he always was the young boy who told Durran what he needed to do, closing off a cleverly inserted stable timeloop.

"Some said the children of the forest helped him build it, shaping the stones with magic; others claimed that a small boy told him what he must do, a boy who would grow to be Bran the Builder."

"In their wroth, they sent howling winds and lashing rains to knock down every castle Durran dared to build, until a young boy helped him erect one so strong and cunningly made that it could defy their gales. The boy grew to be Brandon the Builder"

I really like this theory! It's been shown that Bran is able to make his presence felt very early on in the process of discovering his greenseer powers.  It's also hinted that he will be an incredibly powerful greenseer, so once he's had some practice, who knows how far he'll be able to take that! It's entirely possible that he could project himself as a physical presence (or appear to be physical) into past/present/future scenes. 'Book Bran' is still only about 9 I think, so he could certainly be that small boy called Bran. 

Really enjoying this thread @Wizz-The-Smith!  It made me think of 'The Deep Realm' from The Silver Chair (penultimate book in the Chronicles of Narnia) - an underground land of caves, caverns, rivers, underground sea and even cities. It has strange gnome-like people, a lost/imprisoned prince, dragon-like and bat-like animals who have gone down there to sleep and will wake at the end of the world and old Father Time who also lies down there dreaming (like an old greenseer).  It has the Shallow Lands close to the surface and the Really Deep Land, fathoms below, which seems to be volcanic.  They escape this land via a hole in a hill .

I always thought The Fist Of The First Men was an odd hill - I wonder if there's something underneath it. We may never know.

I have a theory that Team Bran will make their way back south by underground river. It took them a couple of books to make it that far North and winter has truly set in now, so if they're going to head for The Wall or Winterfell (which I think they will), there needs to be a quicker, more passable way. We've had plenty of mention of underground rivers and lakes so it's not too much of a stretch! 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

16 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

@Little Scribe of Naath Thank you for your kind words. 

I always enjoy your thoughts on the forum, especially some of the Bran brainstorming involving @ravenous reader and @Macgregor of the North.  While this is all rather new, I look forward to any thoughts you may have on the subject moving forward.   

Thank you  I've long been a fan of all your (and many others) analyses on the Bran Reread threads  

I'll have to reread a little bit before putting forward some thoughts on this theory, but it's a very interesting topic, and the observation of so many castles built on hollow hills is not something I had ever noticed before! 

[Daendrew]

Hats off to you for all the great research.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 4:22 PM, Equilibrium said:

Well, it is concept from Celtic mythology, in which hollow hills were connected to magic, Otherworld and fairy folk, Tuatha De Danann lived in hollow hills.

So it is probably correct theory.

Hi Equilibrium, thanks for the endorsement.                     

While I have concentrated on the castles and potential greenseers in my essay, the Tuatha De Danann, or the Sidhe are definitely on the radar too.  I haven't done the research to do it justice just yet, but it is surely important to understanding this line of enquiry further.  Here's a look at some of the myth surrounding the hollow hills, and some of the similarities to our story and the Sidhe...  

HOLLOW HILLS .  Experiential doorways into the Earth's visionary geography and its 100+ different features, light temples, and residences of the gods.  

Explanation : The terms Hollow Hills or sidhe are clues to the Earth's vast visionary geography and the openings into this realm through physical landscape features such as hills, caves, mounds, rockfaces, or human-made structures.

The Earth's visionary geography consists of at least 95 different types of portals, doorways, or openings into the planet's subtle landscape. These different types have multiple copies, so that, for example, a Hollow Hill, sidhe, or landscape portal to the Rich Fisher King of Celtic lore is through any of the 144 Grail Castles accessed through sacred or holy sites around the Earth. In all, there are many thousands of gateways into the Otherworld each accessed through a physical site.

Thus Hollow Hill or sidhe can refer accurately to any of these 95 features.

Often the sidhe or Hollow Hill leading to a Tuatha is already hallowed and culturally recognized as such, or at least it will carry an aura of numinosity. Places known as a god's sidhe or King Arthur's Hollow Hill, or even the fairy mounds, are functional passageways from our physical realm to their numinous one and as the Tibetan visionary cited above said, those of "pure vision", or the Celtic lore calls "second sight," may enter and visit with the gods and spirits.

Hindu sacred geographic lore calls such places tirthas, or spiritual fords, where one can safely cross the "river" between physical and subtle realms. The ancient Druids used the term nemeton (from the Latin nemus meaning "Heaven") to indicate a sacred center, sanctuary, or enclosure, such as a grove or woodland clearing, as a place of spiritual exchange between the terrestrial and celestial worlds. Similarly the Romans spoke of a locus consecratus, "consecrated place."

The Maori of New Zealand use the term wahi tapu, which literally means "sacred place," but whose wider connotations mean "windows to the past." Such places provide genealogical links to the Maori ancestors, original stories of creation, and events that define individual tribes within their landscapes.

Having identified the hollow hills as magic portals into the underworld, and then subsequently the Sidhe, or the Dananns with these hollow hills, I had a look at some of the Sidhe lore.  Some of which is strikingly similar to the evidence I have laid out in my essay…...

After the Milesians defeated the Dananns, the Dananns either retreated to Tir na n-Og ("Land of Youth") or they continued to live on the land with the Milesians, but their homes (subterranean palaces) were hidden by magic from the eyes of mortals. Their homes were commonly called Sidhe (síd or sídh) or the Otherworld. Another name for the Tuatha Dé Danann was the áes sídhe or the "People of the Sídhe".

In the Otherworld, the Danann/Sidhe remained young and seemingly immortal. Immortal in the sense, they can live a very long life and remain young, but they can be killed and destroyed, just like any mortal.

There were frequent visits of the Dananns with the mortals. Sometimes they aided mortals, while other times they seek their destruction. Sometimes they sought marriage with mortals. Most of the times, the Dananns would come to the surface and meet their lovers, other times the mortals were allowed to live with them.

It should be noted that the fairies in Celtic myths (especially Irish, Welsh and Arthurian myths) had nothing to do with the tiny pixies with wings that are found in folklore and childrens fairy tales, like Tinklebell in Peter Pan or the Fairy Godmother in Cinderella. The fairies found here were human with supernatural power. Modern interpretations of fairies tend to prettify them, particularly during the Victorian period of 19th century Britain.

In early Irish and Welsh literature, they could be tall or short, beautiful or ugly. They can be benevolent beings, but at other times they can be frighteningly cruel or malign.

Their homes were subterranean palaces hidden by magic.  If we add George’s poetic licence to play with these myths, then this sounds very much like the castles I have highlighted.  Or to put it another way, the castles are built atop George’s version of these subterranean palaces, or magic loci.  Moreover, the caverns are often described as ‘great halls’ by our POV characters that view them, in fact Bran likens Bloodravens cave to the great hall of Winterfell. 

The Danann/Sidhe also remained young and seemingly immortal dwelling their hollow hills.  We can link this to the long lives that the greenseers have sitting in their hollow hills/Otherworld.  The rest of the highlighted text in that section, pretty much spells out the vision of the early greenseer wars @LmL and I hold. 

While they can live for centuries, they can still be killed as mere mortals.  The frequent visits with the mortals [from the greenseers of asoiaf] would include, aiding them, destroying them, and sometimes taking the hand in marriage of their foes wives and daughters.  This sounds very much like the greenseer wars LML and I are speculating about.

The next bit of text I highlighted as I think it’s important to note that while these myths and lore are often linked with fairy folk wings and all, this is not the case for the parallel to be found in asoiaf.  These Dannan/Sidhe parallels are absolutely ‘humans with supernatural powers’, and they can be extremely powerful, frighteningly cruel or malign, as the greenseer wars surely were. 

Something else I happened upon while looking into the Sidhe, was some of the Irish interpretation of such tales, and the Dannan/Sidhe themselves…….              

It is interesting to note that many of the Irish refer to the sidhe as simply "the gentry", on account of their tall, noble appearance and silvery sweet speech.

I think there is a play on the word ‘gentry’ going on here, it sounds very much like ‘Gendry’, who is of course tall and of noble appearance, looking so much like his father, King Robert.  The tall and noble gentry/Gendry synonymous with the hollow hills. 

Interestingly, as a recruit of the BWB, Gendry was actually knighted at High Heart and is now ‘Ser Gendry, knight of the hollow hill’.   He is literally one of the gentry now.  This must mean something [if correct] there is much and more to be explored regards the hollow hills, and the Dannan/Sidhe link is surely key.

I have spoken about this very briefly before and during that chat @Lost Melnibonean pointed out that…

The George has compared the Others to the Sidhe of Irish folklore. According to such folklore, the splits in a tree caused by lightning strikes can serve as pathways to the world of the Sidhe.

While there is much more to explore, this is very interesting.  I have pointed out the similarities between the potential greenseers and their hollow hills compared to the Dannan/Sidhe.  Yet George has cited the Sidhe as being much like the Others culture.  I’m sure the lightening striking the tree will interest LML, and as Ravenous Reader pointed out to me, these trees on the hills are certainly decent lightening conductors for anyone seeking such a thing.  

Taking George’s parallel further, the obvious link here is that the early greenseers and the Others are linked somehow, but that’s all I’ve got at the moment. Hopefully this inspires some ideas.     

Thanks again Equilibrium, I hope this thread helps explores some of these ideas, and I will of course keep digging myself.  

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎14‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 5:47 PM, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Really enjoying this thread @Wizz-The-Smith!  It made me think of 'The Deep Realm' from The Silver Chair (penultimate book in the Chronicles of Narnia) - an underground land of caves, caverns, rivers, underground sea and even cities. It has strange gnome-like people, a lost/imprisoned prince, dragon-like and bat-like animals who have gone down there to sleep and will wake at the end of the world and old Father Time who also lies down there dreaming (like an old greenseer).  It has the Shallow Lands close to the surface and the Really Deep Land, fathoms below, which seems to be volcanic.  They escape this land via a hole in a hill .

I always thought The Fist Of The First Men was an odd hill - I wonder if there's something underneath it. We may never know.

I have a theory that Team Bran will make their way back south by underground river. It took them a couple of books to make it that far North and winter has truly set in now, so if they're going to head for The Wall or Winterfell (which I think they will), there needs to be a quicker, more passable way. We've had plenty of mention of underground rivers and lakes so it's not too much of a stretch! 

Hi Lady Fishbiscuit.  

I like all the parallels you’ve drawn to ‘The Deep Realm’ of Narnia.  Variants of the different mythology and ancient beliefs surrounding the underworld are a recurring theme in a lot of fantasy it seems.  And yes, your idea about Team Bran making their way back south via the subterranean rivers and tunnels seems a good one.  As you say, winter is here and they are short of options, though it would be a dangerous trip.  I think the tunnels/cave system would be important for such a journey, Leaf tells Bran how treacherous the river below their cave is...

‘The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea.  And there are passages that go deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth’’    

I love your thought regards The Fist of the First Men as well.  You’re right, we may never know what is underneath, but it is another First Man ruin that was built on top of a hill.  High ground is of course important for any fortification, but in light of all the First Men castles built on hills, examples like these are worthy of consideration for sure.  Good catch.    

On ‎14‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 9:15 PM, Daendrew said:

Hats off to you for all the great research.

Thanks. 

 

On ‎14‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 6:01 PM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I'll have to reread a little bit before putting forward some thoughts on this theory, but it's a very interesting topic, and the observation of so many castles built on hollow hills is not something I had ever noticed before! 

No problem, I realise this is all a bit new.             

[Macgregor of the North]

On 14/10/2016 at 5:47 PM, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I really like this theory! It's been shown that Bran is able to make his presence felt very early on in the process of discovering his greenseer powers.  It's also hinted that he will be an incredibly powerful greenseer, so once he's had some practice, who knows how far he'll be able to take that! It's entirely possible that he could project himself as a physical presence (or appear to be physical) into past/present/future scenes. 'Book Bran' is still only about 9 I think, so he could certainly be that small boy called Bran. 

Really enjoying this thread @Wizz-The-Smith!  It made me think of 'The Deep Realm' from The Silver Chair (penultimate book in the Chronicles of Narnia) - an underground land of caves, caverns, rivers, underground sea and even cities. It has strange gnome-like people, a lost/imprisoned prince, dragon-like and bat-like animals who have gone down there to sleep and will wake at the end of the world and old Father Time who also lies down there dreaming (like an old greenseer).  It has the Shallow Lands close to the surface and the Really Deep Land, fathoms below, which seems to be volcanic.  They escape this land via a hole in a hill .

I always thought The Fist Of The First Men was an odd hill - I wonder if there's something underneath it. We may never know.

I have a theory that Team Bran will make their way back south by underground river. It took them a couple of books to make it that far North and winter has truly set in now, so if they're going to head for The Wall or Winterfell (which I think they will), there needs to be a quicker, more passable way. We've had plenty of mention of underground rivers and lakes so it's not too much of a stretch! 

Thank you! 

Im loving your theory on Bran travelling back to Winterfell by way of the black underground river. The more I think on it since we spoke about it, I can actually see this happening. 

I could easily see Meera catching blind white fish for meals while Bran drifts in and out of consciousness, slipping Summers skin above land(Summer travelling by river makes less sense) as well as Ravens too, and also giving us the most awesome Westeros history lessons ever from his POV while they drift down river to Winterfell.

It certainly does not need to be boring travel POV's, not that any chapter involving Bran has ever been boring.

It could definitely work!. Great idea.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:31 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

AWOIAF The Westerlands:

"The Westerlands are a place of rugged hills and rolling plains, of misty dales and craggy shorelines, a place of blue lakes and sparkling rivers and fertile fields, of broadleaf forests that teem with game of every sort, where half-hidden doors in the sides of wooded hills open onto labyrinthine caves that wend their way through darkness to reveal unimaginable wonders and vast treasures deep beneath the earth."

Cool sounding hollow hills in the Westerlands! 

Hi Macgregor. 

I mentioned the growing list of sites riddled with caves up thread, your Westerlands find [nice]- High Heart - Cape Wrath - Cracklaw Point - The Rainwood - The Wall etc...  All of which are located close to the castles built on the hollow hills and the caves/caverns I've highlighted.  Here's another one I just found.....

THE WHITE WOOD

Songs speak to us through the years of the Fall of Maidenpool and the death of its boy king, Florian the Brave, Fifth of That Name; of the widow’s Ford, where three sons of Lord Darry held back the Andal warlord Vorian Vypren and his knights for a day and a night, slaying hundreds before they fell themselves; of the night in the White Wood, where supposedly the children of the forest emerged from beneath a hollow hill to send hundreds of wolves against an Andal camp, tearing hundreds of men apart beneath the light of a crescent moon…

The White Wood is another of these forests/wooded areas that has a confirmed hollow hill, it seems likely that this wood is riddled with caves as well.  It is unclear exactly where the White Wood is in the Riverland's, but the sequence of this text is suggestive it may be close to Maidenpool.  That's why I highlighted it, and yes Maidenpool is built atop a hill in a particularly hilly area, with the legend of Florian the Fool and Jonquil attached to it.

Either way, we have another site in the Riverland's attached with the hollow hills, in the White Wood.  This picture of an underground Westeros is growing, we know some of these cave systems are huge as well.             

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hi Macgregor. 

I mentioned the growing list of sites riddled with caves up thread, your Westerlands find [nice]- High Heart - Cape Wrath - Cracklaw Point - The Rainwood - The Wall etc...  All of which are located close to the castles built on the hollow hills and the caves/caverns I've highlighted.  Here's another one I just found.....

THE WHITE WOOD

Songs speak to us through the years of the Fall of Maidenpool and the death of its boy king, Florian the Brave, Fifth of That Name; of the widow’s Ford, where three sons of Lord Darry held back the Andal warlord Vorian Vypren and his knights for a day and a night, slaying hundreds before they fell themselves; of the night in the White Wood, where supposedly the children of the forest emerged from beneath a hollow hill to send hundreds of wolves against an Andal camp, tearing hundreds of men apart beneath the light of a crescent moon…

The White Wood is another of these forests/wooded areas that has a confirmed hollow hill, it seems likely that this wood is riddled with caves as well.  It is unclear exactly where the White Wood is in the Riverland's, but the sequence of this text is suggestive it may be close to Maidenpool.  That's why I highlighted it, and yes Maidenpool is built atop a hill in a particularly hilly area, with the legend of Florian the Fool and Jonquil attached to it.

Either way, we have another site in the Riverland's attached with the hollow hills, in the White Wood.  This picture of an underground Westeros is growing, we know some of these cave systems are huge as well.             

And the crescent moon speaks of sacrifice and of the horned lords... very nice catch here Wizz. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

28 minutes ago, LmL said:

And the crescent moon speaks of sacrifice and of the horned lords... very nice catch here Wizz. 

Ha!  While I can't claim to have noticed that specifically, I'm pleased with how much our research is dovetailing, this is always a good sign!     I've got to re-visit your essays, I've been stuck in the hollow hills for a while now!         

[Macgregor of the North]

@Wizz-The-Smith

Very good catch with the White wood. You  know this area is quite close to the Gods Eye.

A nice image comes to mind of many Weirwoods . 

I think we are all building Westeros' underground Long night safety stronghold as we speak. These places undoubtedly will have significant importance in the coming books. 

I can see Bran Stark somehow spreading the word far and wide that these hollow hills and underground networks may be warded with very old CotF spells and will act as safe houses for the people of Westeros. And they likely were the last time round as well.

You know, when I read a line like the Cotf appearing from a hollow hill to send packs of Wolves against people, tearing them apart, I always picture Nymeria and her pack. And then I get an image of Arya, returned from the east taking the field with all her experience of death, actually battling death(Wights), skinchanging Nymeria and her pack rampaging wildly all around her tearing Wights to shreds. Crazy image!.

Great thread this.

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

11 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Very good catch with the White wood. You  know this area is quite close to the Gods Eye.

A nice image comes to mind of many Weirwoods .

Exactly, and the God's Eye is a strong contender as a site for another cavern, the Green men aren't just huddled round their trees I'm sure.  Plus, the greenseers we know of sit in their caverns, I think the Green Men likely do the same. 

11 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You know, when I read a line like the Cotf appearing from a hollow hill to send packs of Wolves against people, tearing them apart, I always picture Nymeria and her pack. And then I get an image of Arya, returned from the east taking the field with all her experience of death, actually battling death(Wights), skinchanging Nymeria and her pack rampaging wildly all around her tearing Wights to shreds. Crazy image!.

That would be sweet, all of those wolves have to be hiding somewhere otherwise they would be easy to spot in such large numbers.  They are probably already using all the caves we're finding in the wooded areas, or the hollow hills.  And yes, Arya returning to that huge pack of wolves after her training is gonna awesome.  Can't wait for her Winds arc....

Talking of Arya and caves/caverns, it seems Bran isn't the only Stark receiving their training beneath a hollow hill.....

THE HOUSE OF BLACK AND WHITE

The knoll on which the temple stood was honeycombed with passageways hewn from the rock.  The priests and acolytes had their sleeping cells on the first level, Arya and the servants on the second.  The lowest level was forbidden to all save the priests.  That was where the holy sanctum lay……

The House of Black and White is built on a knoll [hill] with many underground passageways and levels, the temple of the Faceless Men is another hollow hill!  The ‘holy sanctum’ on the third level, is the huge area that holds all the faces, which is likely another cavern.  There’s also an association with weirwood [and ebony] in the doors and chairs found within the temple.  In fact the chairs have faces carved into them, which makes me think they are perhaps potential access, serving as something like the weirnet via the magic of the caverns.  

Furthermore, this could link the Faceless Men to the Greenseers/CotF.  Are the Faceless Men harnessing the magic of the hollow hill, and is the Kindly Man a greenseer?  When we first meet him he resembles Bloodraven with his yellow skull and worm coming out of his eye socket.  The journeys and subsequent training that Bran and Arya have are very similar, and we can now add that they’re both undertaking this training within the magic of a hollow hill.

@YOVMO, I thought this might interest you as well in light of some of the ideas you have around the FM and CotF etc..       

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

thought this might interest you as well in light of some of the ideas you have around the FM and CotF etc.. 

It does and is something I have believed for a very long time. Knolls in general are important. I just read a thread about how all the old castles are also built on knolls. I would also point out, btw, the similarities in Varys sleeping chamber to the FM sleeping chambers including the sleeping on a stone bed and in extreme austerity which does not jive with his general character. I believe that the Red Keep on a very big knoll is where Varys is running the Faceless Man operation. I do not, however, believe that the kindly man is a greenseer. The fact that he uses disguise and glamor shows that his magic isn't even close to that level. I feel he is more of a recruiter. The idea that he is training Arya is absurd. She literally fails every. single. task. given to her....every one....and keeps getting promoted. I would say that the key to unlocking this has to do with identifying the "Secret servants" that arya describes at the meeting in the HoBW. I have picked them apart 100 times in 100 different ways and just don't have the requisite information to say who is who. It isn't that I don't have a guess but rather that I have too many perfectly valid guesses for each with each guess meaning something very, very different.

 

That said I do believe the following. I do think that "valar morghulis" isn't some pithy existential saying that the FM use. I think it is quite literally their mission statement. All men must die. They are going to give the gift of death to everyone. They are working with (or possibly being used by) the COTF and are aligned with the others. We know, over and over, that R'Holler is the god of light and life and The Great Other is the god of cold and death. We get this, however, from melissandra and thoros and other red priests and followers of the red god so it is always framed in a negative light. Imagine the Kindly Old Man as the Melisandre to the other team who doesn't talk about death like it is some terrible thing, but rather talks about life that way.

 

One last note, Mel has always been curiously powerful even as a child when she was first brought to the temple of R'Holler. I believe that her power is coming to her, unbeknownst to her, from her father (Bloodraven) and she is being played there. Arg, I hate being at work. They expect me to not think about this stuff. More later.

[ravenous reader]

Great essay @Wizz-The-Smith!

Early in AGOT, there's a hint that much of the life of the story that GRRM has written will take place 'underground':

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"I trust you enjoyed the journey, Your Grace?"

Robert snorted. "Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I've never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?"

"Likely they were too shy to come out," Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

You seem () to have uncovered three main functions of the subterranean space motivating someone to 'go underground'-- (1) magical, (2) political and (3) practical .  The idiom 'going underground' alludes to the necessity perhaps of taking cover from some hostile elements above ground, e.g. 'Winter,' 'Long Night,' dragons, enemy forces, etc.; as well as establishing a refuge from which to base ones covert operations, which may involve a corresponding cover-up or transformation of identity.

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Stormlands: Andals in the Stormlands

King Durran XXI took the unprecedented step of seeking out the remaining children of the forest in the caves and hollow hills where they had taken refuge and making common cause with them against the men from beyond the sea. In the battles fought at Black Bog, in the Misty Wood, and beneath the Howling Hill (the precise location of which has sadly been lost), this Weirwood Alliance dealt the Andals a series of stinging defeats and checked the decline of the Storm Kings for a time.

I'm not sure to what extent all of these three elements-- magical, political and practical -- have to be present simultaneously every time an underground location is in question.  Also, do you really think a hill is necessarily crucial? As I've mentioned to you before, Greywater Watch is also a magically-warded castle -- perhaps the most highly-fortified and mysterious in the entire kingdom (even the ravens can't find it, so it might as well be in a cave!) -- however located in a low-lying bog, so perhaps the subaquatic is equivalent to the subterranean in terms of magic.  An exploration of the subaquatic/subterannean realm more generally opens up further possibilities.  

While I'll be exploring Greywater Watch more fully in a further separate post, let's consider Mole's Town as an important underground venue located near the Wall and thus potentially part of a magical complex there.  While surely serving both a practical and political function, however, is 'Mole's Town' really a magical locus?  

Considering the magical association of topographical features such as 'fell', 'hill', and especially 'barrow', I was reminded that moles are creatures who burrow underground.  Characteristically, these creatures are associated with depigmentation and visual aberrations, evoking the trope of the blind seer (Bloodraven, Ghost of High Heart, Old Nan, etc.).

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A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"Never mind about comets, it's maps the Old Bear wants."

Ghost loped ahead of them. The grounds seemed deserted this morning, with so many rangers off at the brothel in Mole's Town, digging for buried treasure and drinking themselves blind. Grenn had gone with them. Pyp and Halder and Toad had offered to buy him his first woman to celebrate his first ranging. They'd wanted Jon and Sam to come as well, but Sam was almost as frightened of whores as he was of the haunted forest, and Jon had wanted no part of it. "Do what you want," he told Toad, "I took a vow."

As they passed the sept, he heard voices raised in song. Some men want whores on the eve of battle, and some want gods. Jon wondered who felt better afterward. The sept tempted him no more than the brothel; his own gods kept their temples in the wild places, where the weirwoods spread their bone-white branches. The Seven have no power beyond the Wall, he thought, but my gods will be waiting.

 In addition, there is the figurative connotation of a 'mole' as an undercover agent to which I alluded above, which is perhaps an apposite characterisation of a greenseer.  Interestingly, the 'undercover agent' ferreting out some questionable boon is frequently associated with some kind of transgressive act (those 'naughty naughty greenseers'), underscored here by Jon's allusion to vows with reference to the oathbreaking that is taking place underground in Mole's Town.  Mole's Town is also repeatedly compared to a mining colony where the crows 'dig for buried treasure,' hinting at some magical connection, considering the treasures of dragonglass and horn that were dug up by Ghost on a previous expedition.  Also, as I highlighted on the @Seams thread which started your quest, a 'seam' has a mining connotation, referring to the rich stratum of precious metal (e.g. gold) ore the miners strive to tap and release (perhaps 'tap' is a rather unfortunate word choice on my part, considering its racier urban connotation...although that wouldn't be out of place at Mole's Town!)  Could tapping a mineral seam be a metaphor for accessing magic?

What do you think of Mole's Town as potential locus of magic..?  At the least, GRRM's description of Mole's Town seems to be an allegory of how to interpret 'hollow hills' elsewhere, even though it doesn't seem to be located on a hill itself:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

Mole's Town was bigger than it seemed, but three quarters of it was under the ground, in deep warm cellars connected by a maze of tunnels. Even the whorehouse was down there, nothing on the surface but a wooden shack no bigger than a privy, with a red lantern hung over the door. On the Wall, he'd heard men call the whores "buried treasures." He wondered whether any of his brothers in black were down there tonight, mining. That was oathbreaking too, yet no one seemed to care.

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ADWD - Jon V

Mole’s Town had always been larger than it seemed; most of it was underground, sheltered from the cold and snow. That was more true than ever now. The Magnar of Thenn had put the empty village to the torch when he passed through on his way to attack Castle Black, and only heaps of blackened beams and old scorched stones remained above-ground … but down beneath the frozen earth, the vaults and tunnels and deep cellars still endured, and that was where the free folk had taken refuge, huddled together in the dark like the moles from which the village took its name.

This passage has striking similarities to Bran's often-quoted description of Winterfell after it too had been put to the torch:

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A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

Meera looked to her brother for the answer. "Our road is north," Jojen announced.

At the edge of the wolfswood, Bran turned in his basket for one last glimpse of the castle that had been his life. Wisps of smoke still rose into the grey sky, but no more than might have risen from Winterfell's chimneys on a cold autumn afternoon. Soot stains marked some of the arrow loops, and here and there a crack or a missing merlon could be seen in the curtain wall, but it seemed little enough from this distance. Beyond, the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all. The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either.

So, taking refuge underground might be a smart way of surviving an onslaught above ground, e.g. as Bran and his company did by hiding out in the crypts; or imaginably avoiding a potential onslaught from the air, e.g. by swathes of dragonfire.  A cave is essentially a kind of bomb shelter.

The fact that Mole's Town is 'larger than it seemed'  is probably significant symbolically, considering GRRM repeats it more than once, and there are indications here corroborated by use of this phrase elsewhere that hint at some magical significance. 

Previously, @Seams has highlighted the pun of 'seemed' with 'seamed' (particularly ironic in light of the avatar!).

In the Night Fort:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

There were a lot of dark doors in the Nightfort, and a lot of rats. Bran could hear them scurrying through the vaults and cellars, and the maze of pitch-black tunnels that connected them. Jojen wanted to go poking around down there, but Hodor said "Hodor" to that, and Bran said "No." There were worse things than rats down in the dark beneath the Nightfort.

"This seems an old place," Jojen said as they walked down a gallery where the sunlight fell in dusty shafts through empty windows.

"Twice as old as Castle Black," Bran said, remembering. "It was the first castle on the Wall, and the largest." But it had also been the first abandoned, all the way back in the time of the Old King. 

The House of Black and White:

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A Feast for Crows - Arya I

A few candles burned along the walls, but gave so little light that Arya could not see her own feet. Someone was whispering, too softly for her to make out words. Someone else was weeping. She heard light footfalls, leather sliding over stone, a door opening and closing. Water, I hear water too.

Slowly her eyes adjusted. The temple seemed much larger within than it had without. The septs of Westeros were seven-sided, with seven altars for the seven gods, but here there were more gods than seven. Statues of them stood along the walls, massive and threatening. Around their feet red candles flickered, as dim as distant stars. 

Or a magical 'box' which similarly proved much larger than it seemed:

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

"There was no rider, my lord. Only a carved wooden box, left on a table in my observatory while I napped. My servants saw no one, but it must have been brought by someone in the king's party. We have had no other visitors from the south."

"A wooden box, you say?" Catelyn said.

"Inside was a fine new lens for the observatory, from Myr by the look of it. The lenscrafters of Myr are without equal."

Ned frowned. He had little patience for this sort of thing, Catelyn knew. "A lens," he said. "What has that to do with me?"

"I asked the same question," Maester Luwin said. "Clearly there was more to this than the seeming."

Under the heavy weight of her furs, Catelyn shivered. "A lens is an instrument to help us see."

"Indeed it is." He fingered the collar of his order; a heavy chain worn tight around the neck beneath his robe, each link forged from a different metal.

Catelyn could feel dread stirring inside her once again. "What is it that they would have us see more clearly?"

"The very thing I asked myself." Maester Luwin drew a tightly rolled paper out of his sleeve. "I found the true message concealed within a false bottom when I dismantled the box the lens had come in, but it is not for my eyes."

Ned held out his hand. "Let me have it, then."

 

This ties in with the 'shield-hall' idea we previously discussed on @Seams thread, so a shield (a more-or-less two-dimensional boundary of sorts) like a door, represented by the false bottom of the box, opens up into a three dimensional liminal chamber or hall of secrets.  Similarly, Mole's Town, advertised by a lone shield or sign but otherwise largely invisible above ground, actually harbors more tunnels, recesses, people and other unexpected presences than at first meet the eye (including the living, the 'half dead', perhaps even the 'undead'...).  

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A Storm of Swords - Jon VI

He almost rode through Mole's Town, so feverish that he did not know where he was. Most of the village was hidden underground, only a handful of small hovels to be seen by the light of the waning moon. The brothel was a shed no bigger than a privy, its red lantern creaking in the wind, a bloodshot eye peering through the blackness. Jon dismounted at the adjoining stable, half-stumbling from the mare's back as he shouted two boys awake. "I need a fresh mount, with saddle and bridle," he told them, in a tone that brooked no argument. They brought him that; a skin of wine as well, and half a loaf of brown bread. "Wake the village," he told them. "Warn them. There are wildlings south of the Wall. Gather your goods and make for Castle Black." He pulled himself onto the black gelding they'd given him, gritting his teeth at the pain in his leg, and rode hard for the north.

The image of the solitary red bloodshot eye definitely evokes a greenseer/sorcerer, like Bloodraven 

Spoiler

or Euron

Continuing the greenseer allusions, there's a personified tree with a rather martial aspect near Mole's Town:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

Just north of Mole's Town they came upon the third watcher, carved into the huge oak that marked the village perimeter, its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face, Jon Snow reflected. The faces that the First Men and the children of the forest had carved into the weirwoods in eons past had stern or savage visages more oft than not, but the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it.

 

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The wagons drew up in a crescent in front of what had once been the village smithy. Nearby a swarm of red-faced children were building a snow fort, but they scattered at the sight of the black-cloaked brothers, vanishing down one hole or another. A few moments later the adults began to emerge from the earth.

The 'crescent' formation of the wagons is perhaps a reference to the horned greenseers and their 'moon magic' traditionally involving human sacrifice at the end of a bronze sickle (there's also a 'bronze' reference later on in the same passage).  The 'swarm of children building a snow fort' who scurry underground could be a reference to the Children as well as the 'swarms' of ravens and wolves they were known to conjure as part of their unconventional guerrilla warfare.  The 'adults emerging from the earth' could refer to White Walkers or wights on the rise, or giants awakening from the earth, a possible interpretation considering those taking refuge at Mole's Town are explicitly compared to 'the living dead'.

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A stench came with them, the smell of unwashed bodies and soiled clothing, of nightsoil and urine. Jon saw one of his men wrinkle his nose and say something to the man beside him. Some jape about the smell of freedom, he guessed. Too many of his brothers were making japes about the stench of the savages in Mole’s Town.

Pig ignorance, Jon thought. The free folk were no different than the men of the Night’s Watch; some were clean, some dirty, but most were clean at times and dirty at other times. This stink was just the smell of a thousand people jammed into cellars and tunnels that had been dug to shelter no more than a hundred.

 The wildlings had done this dance before. Wordless, they formed up in lines behind the wagons. There were three women for every man, many with children—pale skinny things clutching at their skirts. Jon saw very few babes in arms. The babes in arms died during the march, he realized, and those who survived the battle died in the king’s stockade.
 

'Done this dance before' perhaps alluding to having to take refuge in caves during the previous 'Long Night'?  Or take cover from dragonfire during the previous 'Dance of the Dragons'?

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The fighters had fared better. Three hundred men of fighting age, Justin Massey had claimed in council. Lord Harwood Fell had counted them. There will be spearwives too. Fifty, sixty, maybe as many as a hundred. Fell’s count had included men who had suffered wounds, Jon knew. He saw a score of those—men on crude crutches, men with empty sleeves and missing hands, men with one eye or half a face, a legless man carried between two friends. And every one grey-faced and gaunt. Broken men, he thought. The wights are not the only sort of living dead.

Not all the fighting men were broken, though. Half a dozen Thenns in bronze scale armor stood clustered round one cellar stair, watching sullenly and making no attempt to join the others. In the ruins of the old village smithyJon spied a big bald slab of a man he recognized as Halleck, the brother of Harma Dogshead. Harma’s pigs were gone, though. Eaten, no doubt. Those two in furs were Hornfoot men, as savage as they were scrawny, barefoot even in the snow. There are wolves amongst these sheep, still.

Val had reminded him of that, on his last visit with her. “Free folk and kneelers are more alike than not, Jon Snow. Men are men and women women, no matter which side of the Wall we were born on. Good men and bad, heroes and villains, men of honor, liars, cravens, brutes … we have plenty, as do you.”

  She was not wrong. The trick was telling one from the other, parting the sheep from the goats.

Talking of 'fells,' here we have a Lord Harwood Fell...ruins of an old smithy...bronze scale...bound to be magical...

Then, following in quick succession, a slew of magical northern ghostly old gods references:  'living dead... wights'...'broken men' like Bran and the rest of the symbolic 'broken swords'; 'grey and gaunt' like the Starks and their wolves (some of the men are directly compared to 'wolves among these sheep'); and significantly cripples 'legless...on crude crutches...missing hands...men with one eye or half a face...' evoking Bloodraven, Bran, Jaime, Tyrion, Theon, Euron, etc. the gamut of 'cripples, bastards, and broken things' who will ironically be instrumental in restoring the realm in the war(s) to come.

 

[Seams]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

You seem () to have uncovered three main functions of the subterranean space motivating someone to 'go underground'-- (1) magical, (2) political and (3) practical . 

... let's consider Mole's Town as an important underground venue located near the Wall and thus potentially part of a magical complex there. 

So, taking refuge underground might be a smart way of surviving an onslaught above ground, e.g. as Bran and his company did by hiding out in the crypts; ...

The fact that Mole's Town is 'larger than it seemed'  is probably significant symbolically, considering GRRM repeats it more than once, and there are indications here corroborated by use of this phrase elsewhere that hint at some magical significance.

Lots of interesting ideas, as usual rr, and you provoke some new thoughts in my mind.

I wonder whether there is a fourth function for underground spaces, or if this always occurs in conjunction with one of the other three? The category I would add would be a symbolic function. Sometimes it seems to me that a scene involves going into a tunnel or cellar for no particular reason except symbolism at that point in a character's arc. I'm thinking Arya is often down a hole or in an underground chamber - some of her scenes could as easily take place above ground, but I think GRRM wants her underground for some reason. Maybe it's just a good way to remind us that she is hiding - undercover, underfoot.

As for Mole's Town, I have had a notion for awhile that Jon's desertion ride from the Night's Watch after Ned's death was intended to be compared to Ned's secret nighttime visit to Catelyn at Littlefinger's brothel. The thing that initially caught my attention was a detail: both Jon and Littlefinger eat apples down to the core in these scenes. I can't find where I wrote this up in a previous comment, but the facts that Mole's Town is so closely identified with the brothel and that Ned was going to a brothel (to meet his wife) were other major parts of the comparison. Jon thinks about his NW brothers "digging for treasure"; Ned apparently IS a treasure - Catelyn whispered against his chest, and Littlefinger sarcastically says that Ned's gratitude is a "treasure." Jon spends a lot of time thinking about swords and about the dagger he brought along; Ned will receive from Catelyn the dagger that was used to attack Bran. Jon imagines a reunion with Robb; Catelyn tells Littlefinger his helpfulness makes her feel as if she has "found the brother [she'd] thought lost."

But here's why this comes to mind again now and how it might relate to the hollow hills analysis: With Littlefinger's help, Ned climbs down the outside of Aegon's Hill (the hill on which the Red Keep is built), outside the castle wall, in order to keep the little trip as secret as possible. But they arrive at their destination and Ned goes inside the brothel. By contrast, as Jon rides south, he avoids Mole's Town and is not tempted to go into the complex.

When Sansa escapes King's Landing after Joffrey's wedding feast, she is led by Ser Dontos down (presumably) this same path to Littlefinger. Her trip ends when she goes below into the ship Littlefinger has arranged for their passage to The Fingers. (Much later, Sansa will take Sweetrobin down the outside of an even steeper hill when they leave the Eyrie at the beginning of winter.)

I think there is some subtle symbolism at play here, with whether the character travels inside the hill or on the outside of the hill making an important difference; does the character eventually go "underground," or does he stay on the surface or even end up going into a tower? Who is the guide in to or out of the underground place?

If you include the brothel and the ship as "underground" destinations, the Littlefinger examples show that underground is not always a place to go for safety, although it might appear to be safe. Littlefinger uses the brothel visit as a chance to solidify the Stark suspicion of the Lannisters (as well as Varys) and to underscore Tyrion's supposed connection to the dagger.

Hmm. Thinking out loud here. Maybe I'm missing GRRM's point: Littlefinger's destinations are not literally underground, and maybe that's why Catelyn and Ned and Sansa are not safe when they enter his spaces. If I recall correctly, Jon slows his attempted flight from the NW as he passes Mole's Town, as if he is doubting the wisdom of his plan. He doesn't want to go "below" (i.e., south of) Mole's Town. And he is brought north again by his Night's Watch brothers who have been alerted by Sam Tarly and don't want to see Jon get in trouble.

Later Jon will go into a tunnel with Ygritte and will enjoy having sex naked for the first time. So this might be reinforcement of the notion that it is safe to be underground - the lovers can shed their furs and fully reveal themselves to each other. They recall their cave and wish they had never left when Ygritte is dying.

Ned, on the other hand, is thrown into a dungeon in the Red Keep. Not a safe place.

Catelyn, as Lady Stoneheart, joins the Brotherhood Without Banners who live in a Hollow Hill. She's a badass with nothing to lose and doesn't care whether it's a safe place.

As people have noted earlier in this thread, the ancient Celts may have believed that there were different underworlds that could be entered at different points on the landscape. Ned in the dungeon at King's Landing is in a hellish underworld; Jon in a cave beyond the Wall is in a pleasant underworld.

By the way, Mole's Town = Two Lemons. Also, Lost Women. Sorry, I couldn't resist.