LmL

Dragonslords, in Westeros, in the Dawn Age - How Azor Ahai Came to Westeros

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The TL:DR here is that the Great Empire of the Dawn, a kingdom of legend from far eastern Essos, was really the civilization which built Asshai, and that among their number were the original dragonlords who existed before the Long Night and before Valyria. These were the "men from the shadow" which The World of Ice and Fire speaks of who may have tamed dragons first and then passed their arts to the Valyrians before departing the annals of history. The Dawn Age dragonlords, in other words. We know they existed because two fused stone constructions which can be pretty definitively dated to before the Long Night and before the rise of Valyria exist in the world: the Five Forts, in eastern Essos, and the fused stone fortress at Battle Isle in Oldtown. Fused stone is only made with dragonfire and sorcery, so far as we know, so the existence of fused stone fortresses in the Dawn Age is pretty solid evidence that dragolords existed before Valyria. There is abundant evidence to tie those dragonlords to Asshai and the Great Empire of the Dawn, and equally compelling evidence that they came to Westeros some time before the Long Night, perhaps long before. This connection provides a plausible way for the legend of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer to have some real, tangible connection to one or both of the two Westerosi-related things people have always wanted to connect to Azor Ahai and Lightbringer - the sword Dawn of House Dayne, and the Last Hero and his blade of dragonsteel. It also explains how House Dayne, a First Men family from Westeros, which (according to George) has never had an infusion of Yargaryen blood, occasionally manifests what are thought of as "Valyrian traits" -  purple eyes and silver hair. 

So far as I know, I was the first to propose this theory way back in March of last year, although really it was myself and @Durran Durrandon who put the major pieces together, and he wrote two essays around this time which I will link two in a moment. That original theory about the Great Empire of the Dawn being the original dragonlords who came to Westeros was called "Fingerprints of the Dawn," and it was written long before I had a podcast or blog or anything like that. Since then, other folks have put together the clues, and I have long wanted to do an updated version myself based on all the many contributions that came from all of you, my best friends on Westeros.org whom I have tagged here in this post, in the comments thread of that original Fingerprints essay (33 pages worth in a month!). But instead of doing so inside the context of my mythical astronomy series, which is a bit abstract and based on mythology and symbolism, I thought it better to present it on its own in a format that was accessible to everyone without having read any of my other stuff. So I took it to History of Westeros, one of my favorite podcasts, and our collaboration actually generate three joint episodes between History of Westeros and my Mythical Astronomy podcast: the second part of a two part House Dayne episode, an episode centered on Asshai and its connections to dragonlords, and now, at long last, the updated version of my original essay, the Great Empire of the Dawn, the video below.

I feel like bringing these ideas to History of Westeros turned out to be a great decision, as Aziz's keen mind and sharp eye for detail greatly improved the presentation of ideas compared to the original, somewhat muddled version which I wrote, and since he produces his podcast in video form on youtube, there's the added benefit of being able to watch instead of read. Michael Klarfeld a.k.a. Klaradox pitched in with some awesome hand-drawn maps and video sequences which really add something nice to the mix. Thanks to everyone who contributed to the threads around this topic, I hope this makes you proud and entertains you as well. Like everything else I do, it's very much the stepchild of Westeros.org forum community, so cheers :)
 

 

Edited by LmL

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Thanks @LmL. Good to see new  one up.!

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Great episode. I like the new soundbites guy.

The fused stone may be the same as the oily stone, but like the Gremlins, don't add water.

Edited by Daendrew

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Yeah! I will try and sneak listen to this while out at work today :cool4:

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Terrific episode. Well done to all involved. I'm probably interpreting the GEotD/main story parallels far too literally here, but if Dany is the Amethyst Empress, Euron is probably the best contender for Bloodstone Emperor in every way (woman with white fire = tiger woman bride, blaspheming, practising black magic) bar one: he's not a 'jealous younger brother' archetype for Dany in any way. Does this mean there'll be a darker role for fAegon or even Jon?

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Has anyone ever seriously put together an argument that Jon or someone may be of Dayne blood?  Dawn being of a strange metal unlike any other, being called "Dawn" and the title of its wielder being called "Sword of the Morning" all scream that this is the blade that ended The Long Night.  The story is called a Song of Ice and Fire and Rhaegar specifically says that TPTWP has the song of ice and fire.  

With your argument being that the Dayne's are of similar stock as Valyrians, it stands to reason that someone of House Dayne who have the blood of the first men and whatever race empowered the Valyrians in their blood are a strong candidate for Azor Ahai/TPTWP/The Last hero. Add in Stark blood which appears to have a connection to the Night's King among other connections to the Others, and you have a compelling case.

I know everyone is sold on Jon or Dany, but neither have a commonly agreed connection to House Dayne and like you, I see the role of Dawn being much more prominent in the battles to come.  I've often wondered if maybe Arthur Dayne wasn't ordered by Rhaegar to impregnate Lyanna to bring about Azor Ahai.

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11 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

I've often wondered if maybe Arthur Dayne wasn't ordered by Rhaegar to impregnate Lyanna to bring about Azor Ahai.

Interesting idea, but it makes me wonder why then Rhaegar would die with Lyanna's name on his lips and why Lyanna would die clutching the faded blue winter rose wreath in her hands.

 

Edited to add: Looking forward to enjoying this exploration as soon as I may have the time (emphasis on soon!). Thanks, @LmL for the heads-up.

Edited by The Ned's Little Girl
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53 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Interesting idea, but it makes me wonder why then Rhaegar would die with Lyanna's name on his lips and why Lyanna would die clutching the faded blue winter rose wreath in her hands.

 

Edited to add: Looking forward to enjoying this exploration as soon as I may have the time (emphasis on soon!). Thanks, @LmL for the heads-up.

Well, do we know he died with Lyanna's name on his lips?  I know Dany saw a vision of his death with him saying a woman's name, but was it stated he said "Lyanna"?  I like the idea of Jon being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne as much as anyone, but Targaryen's weren't known to be gentile people.  We've heard nothing but nice things about Rhaegar, but every source we've heard them from was biased toward Rhaegar, and even Selmy said no one truly knew Rhaegar.  

Aegon V was by all accounts a great man and king, but he died using sorcery and took several "innocents" with him.  We know we have untrustworthy narrators.  I'm just saying that there is a chance Rhaegar wasn't the awesome guy we've all been led to believe.

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5 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

Well, do we know he died with Lyanna's name on his lips?  I know Dany saw a vision of his death with him saying a woman's name, but was it stated he said "Lyanna"?

We know in the sense that GRRM, in answer to a question, stated that it was Lyanna's name. It hasn't been written into the books yet, so provided you consider word-of-the-author to be definitive, then yes it's confirmed.

 

9 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

Aegon V was by all accounts a great man and king, but he died using sorcery and took several "innocents" with him.  We know we have untrustworthy narrators.  I'm just saying that there is a chance Rhaegar wasn't the awesome guy we've all been led to believe.

I agree and I think there's more than a chance that there are sides to Rhaegar that we have yet to see. And I think it's pretty near a certainty that there will be more and important disclosures about the Daynes as well. I will not be surprised if a Dayne connection with the Great Empire of the Dawn is eventually revealed.

 

 

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Very exciting, LmL! Bravo and thanks for sharing!

 

1 hour ago, WalkinDude said:

Has anyone ever seriously put together an argument that Jon or someone may be of Dayne blood?  Dawn being of a strange metal unlike any other, being called "Dawn" and the title of its wielder being called "Sword of the Morning" all scream that this is the blade that ended The Long Night.  The story is called a Song of Ice and Fire and Rhaegar specifically says that TPTWP has the song of ice and fire.  

With your argument being that the Dayne's are of similar stock as Valyrians, it stands to reason that someone of House Dayne who have the blood of the first men and whatever race empowered the Valyrians in their blood are a strong candidate for Azor Ahai/TPTWP/The Last hero. Add in Stark blood which appears to have a connection to the Night's King among other connections to the Others, and you have a compelling case.

I know everyone is sold on Jon or Dany, but neither have a commonly agreed connection to House Dayne and like you, I see the role of Dawn being much more prominent in the battles to come.  I've often wondered if maybe Arthur Dayne wasn't ordered by Rhaegar to impregnate Lyanna to bring about Azor Ahai.

Check out @Sly Wren's threads. 

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52 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

Well, do we know he died with Lyanna's name on his lips?  I know Dany saw a vision of his death with him saying a woman's name, but was it stated he said "Lyanna"?  I like the idea of Jon being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne as much as anyone, but Targaryen's weren't known to be gentile people.  We've heard nothing but nice things about Rhaegar, but every source we've heard them from was biased toward Rhaegar, and even Selmy said no one truly knew Rhaegar.  

Aegon V was by all accounts a great man and king, but he died using sorcery and took several "innocents" with him.  We know we have untrustworthy narrators.  I'm just saying that there is a chance Rhaegar wasn't the awesome guy we've all been led to believe.

Pretty sure GRRM said that name was Lyanna, can anyone verify this? 

ETA: thanks @The Ned's Little Girl :)

2 hours ago, WalkinDude said:

Has anyone ever seriously put together an argument that Jon or someone may be of Dayne blood?  Dawn being of a strange metal unlike any other, being called "Dawn" and the title of its wielder being called "Sword of the Morning" all scream that this is the blade that ended The Long Night.  The story is called a Song of Ice and Fire and Rhaegar specifically says that TPTWP has the song of ice and fire.  

With your argument being that the Dayne's are of similar stock as Valyrians, it stands to reason that someone of House Dayne who have the blood of the first men and whatever race empowered the Valyrians in their blood are a strong candidate for Azor Ahai/TPTWP/The Last hero. Add in Stark blood which appears to have a connection to the Night's King among other connections to the Others, and you have a compelling case.

I know everyone is sold on Jon or Dany, but neither have a commonly agreed connection to House Dayne and like you, I see the role of Dawn being much more prominent in the battles to come.  I've often wondered if maybe Arthur Dayne wasn't ordered by Rhaegar to impregnate Lyanna to bring about Azor Ahai.

 

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Interesting idea, but it makes me wonder why then Rhaegar would die with Lyanna's name on his lips and why Lyanna would die clutching the faded blue winter rose wreath in her hands.

 

Edited to add: Looking forward to enjoying this exploration as soon as I may have the time (emphasis on soon!). Thanks, @LmL for the heads-up.

Hey all! Thanks for checking it out and leaving a comment, good to see everyone. I am cautious about turning this into an RLJ related conversation, but i suppose it must be discussed. :) I myself am pretty sold on RLJ, and always have been, but I have always said the one other theory that makes some amount of sense would be something that leads to "Jon Dayne." I really can't support any of those theories for logistical reasons - like I said, I'm pretty sold on RLJ - but I certainly understand why there is support for various Jon Dayne theories. So I have a couple things to say about that. 

First, it's important to remember that George has created archetypal roles, and many people fit the same role, in some ways. Azor Ahai is an archetype which different characters manifest different aspects or versions of. Jon and Dany both fit, but in different ways. We have many characters who exemplify morningstar / white sword symbolism, but many of them are not Daynes, even thought he mythology of House Dayne and Dawn is purely taken from Morningstar related ideas. The Night's Watch, for example, uses the same symbolism - the sword in the darkness, the light that brings the dawn, and so on... with the twist that all their symbolism is black, not white. There's a reason for that of course, but that's off topic. Point is, because the same symbolism appears in so many places with subtle variations, many different possibilities for future events of secret paternities can make sense. It's a bit of a house of mirrors... that's just how George has built it.

Second, I see these archetypes in a family tree, at least the main three. It's like this:

Azor Ahai Sr. is a solar king, he's the daddy
Nissa Nissa is the moon maiden and moon mother, she's the mommy
Azor Ahai reborn, who could also be called Nissa Nissa reborn, is the child of both parents and carries on the symbolism of both parents, albeit in a transformed state.

Let's take Dany, for example. She begins in the pure moon maiden role, but is reborn in fire when she woke the dragons to become more of an Azor Ahai reborn figure. She is symbolizing the death of the moon and the birth of the moon dragon meteors in this moment, and those moon dragon meteors which drank the fire of the sun (were fertilized by the sun) ARE Azor Ahai reborn. She transforms from moon mother to sun-fertilized moon dragon, in other words, and in doing so, she becomes Azzor Ahai reborn, a new type of solar king. But she is also a transformed and reborn moon figure at the same time - because the child carries on the legacy of both parents, just as you and I do. 

Jon is like an icy version of Azor Ahai reborn. His dad checks all the boxes for Azor Ahai in his darker, Bloodstone Emperor-like incarnation, complete with two moon wives, one hot and one cold. Lynn, being a moon maiden associated with ice and winter like the Night's King's corspe queen (she of the moon pale, cold skin), and when Azor Ahai has a child with a cold moon queen, we get a cold version of Azor Ahai reborn, and that is Jon. Other characters which line up with this role are the Others - the children of the moon pale Corpse Queen and the Night's King (who himself fits the darker side of AA); as well as the Daynes and Kingsguard and all the other white sword symbolism.

This kind of gets into my whole two moons theory, which is something I will be explaining in full with a series focused on the ice moon / fire moon idea, but most are familiar with the basic concept. The second moon which we used to have would have been the "fire moon," and the surviving one would be the "ice moon." If black dragons and black dragon swords represent the meteors of the original Long Night moon catastrophe, then the white swords and cold stars symbolism represents the meteors which can come from the hypothetical "ice moon" which still hangs in the sky.  That's why the Others are like an inverted parallel to the dragons in so many ways - white shadows with pale, luminescent swords and cold burning star eyes, where the dragons have eyes of magma and fire and are associated with black swords which drink the light or have a "dark glow," and the most prominent dragon is Drogon, who is called the winged shadow. Melisandre births black shadows with her fire sorcery, while the NK and Corpse Queen sacrificed their babies to the others, which means they were probably making Others, the white shadows. It goes on and on, but the parallels are very consistent, and I believe it all goes back tot he idea of the fire and ice moon being fertilized by the solar comet seed and producing different kinds of meteor babies, to put it bluntly.

So to get back to the Daynes... at the Tower of Joy, we have an icy moon maiden, Lyanna, and all three things which Ned took away from the ToJ represent the pieces of the ice moon turned into icy meteors. First we have Lyanna's bones, which are the bones of the ice moon - the pics of the ice moon, which would be what turns into ice moon meteors. Then we have the sword Dawn, the white sword which as I just tried to explain, represents the concept of an icy moon meteor, the opposite of the fire associated black meteors. Finally we have Jon, the symbolic child of the ice moon maiden and an Azor Ahai figure, the icy version of Azor Ahai reborn. So an icy moon maiden dies, and everything that leaves the ToJ represents the children of the ice moon.  Obviously if Jon were a Dayne, that would sort of fit, but he doesn't have to be one by any means. It's simply that the Daynes and the icy version of AA have the same symbolism. 

This also places Rhaegar in parallel to the NK, which works really well. Both destroyed themselves for love of a woman, both dressed in black from head to heel, both courted icy moon maidens, both were thrown down by the King of Winter (Ned being a KoW character in symbol if not in technicality). NK bound his brothers with strange sorceries, and Rhaegar compelled Arthur, Oswell, and Gerold to basically fight a pointless suicidal fight for some reason which we have yet to divine.

 Last point on the Daynes - I think they might be more of a recipe than a specific solution. Meaning, blood of the dragon + the first First Men blood can = SOTM. Last time, that combination lead to the Last Hero and perhaps House Dayne. We could use that same recipe again by marrying a Targ to a Stark, or perhaps to a Blackwood, you dig? Jon and Dany both have Blackwood blood AND Dayne blood anyway though targaryen marriages a couple generations back. But the point of House Dayne in the story might be to show us how it was done. We might not need an actual Dayne, we might need to recreate the recipe for House Dayne... meaning, Rhaegar might have done that already when he made Jon, who bears all the hallmarks of being the new SOTM as my friend @Sly Wren has shown.

If Jon is not a Dayne, there is no Dayne who is anything close to an important enough character to be the hero of the new Long Night, and for this reason, I am not sure the Daynes or Dawn will play any important role at all, actually. I can go either way on this. Dawn may be a museum piece in the same sense that House Dayne represents a recipe. Dawn might have been the first sword that brought the dawn, but it might not be the sword we need this time. If Dawn IS to be used  in the main action, I have speculated that perhaps Darkstar will steal it, only to die and cough up the sword to Jon or Dany or whomever when the time is right.

And yes, I think it is possible that Dany could use Dawn, because the pale fire swords of her ancestors might represent the same type of sword as Dawn, just lit on fire (pale fire = pale sword?). In this case, the true purpose of Dawn would have to be magical, not as a cleaver - perhaps it's the ultimate glass candle or something. Could be anything... and I think many suspect the answer to the Long Night will not be simple swordplay, right?

So basically, I am 50/50 on Dawn being used again, although I am much more inclined to believe that it had a role in bringing the original LN to a close. Most of all, I tend to think the most important thing in ALL of this is to mix the blood of the dragon with First Men greenseer blood. That is how you make a new SOTM.

Oh, and... he needs to be a zombie. Like Jon, like Coldhands, and like the original Last Hero (my theory there). Skinchangers and greenseer make the best zombies, because their animal or tree can preserve their soul until their body is reanimated, which means you won't have a remnant like Beric or Stoneheart, but something closer to a greenseer who has body-snatched his own reanimated corpse. This new type of conscious wight makes the ideal Last hero, as he does not need to eat or sleep or seek warmth. The perfect one to journey into the cold dead lands. Jon is becoming exactly what the original Last Hero was - a resurrected skinchanger who has the blood of the dragon. 

What I want to know is, what color will his eyes burn? Red or blue? Or black?

Edited by LmL

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5 minutes ago, LmL said:

Pretty sure GRRM said that name was Lyanna, can anyone verify this? 

 

 

According to the Wiki, the World of Ice and Fire app confirms that, I don't have the app, so could someone verify this?

Edited by Blue Tiger

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2 hours ago, The Prince of Magpies said:

Terrific episode. Well done to all involved. I'm probably interpreting the GEotD/main story parallels far too literally here, but if Dany is the Amethyst Empress, Euron is probably the best contender for Bloodstone Emperor in every way (woman with white fire = tiger woman bride, blaspheming, practising black magic) bar one: he's not a 'jealous younger brother' archetype for Dany in any way. Does this mean there'll be a darker role for fAegon or even Jon?

Yes, absolutely, and many have noticed that very thing. Euron is actually a usurping younger brother, although technically he won the kings moot, because Victorian, his elder brother, serves him. Grey King is the same - he was served by his leal elder brother, the founder of House Goodbrother. 

It's important to remember what I was saying above about archetypal roles - many people play out different aspects of them. I tend to think of the Bloodstone Emperor archetype as the dark aspect of Azor Ahai, and Euron is not the only one who plays it. Jon and fAegon both play into various parts of the combined AA / BSE archetype, which is something I have mentioned in my podcasts. You will notice that many of our AA players are second sons - Tyrion, Jon, and Dany to the extent she is the "Last Dragon" and inheritor of Rhaegar's mantle. That's an astronomy joke, kind of, because the moon meteors which represent the rebirth of Azor Ahai lit up the sky like a second sun. That's why the banner of the Second Sons is a broken sword, because Lightbringer has a strong dose of broken sword symbolism (think of the LH's broken sword, the fact that Ned's sword was split, and many other things). 

But to your point, yes, Euron is the prime example of the flagrantly villainous Bloodstone Emperor. And look what he is doing - he is about to INVADE OLDTOWN. And that is exactly what we are suggesting the Bloodstone Emperor might have done - come to Westeros at Battle Isle and began an invasion of some kind. Other AA / BSE parallel characters who invaded Oldtwon include the Red Kracken Dalton Greyjoy, wielder of the V steel sword "Nightfall," which had a moonstone in its pommel, and Samwell Dayne "the Starfire." who burnt and sacked Oldtown. 

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53 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

Well, do we know he died with Lyanna's name on his lips?  I know Dany saw a vision of his death with him saying a woman's name, but was it stated he said "Lyanna"?  I like the idea of Jon being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne as much as anyone, but Targaryen's weren't known to be gentile people.  We've heard nothing but nice things about Rhaegar, but every source we've heard them from was biased toward Rhaegar, and even Selmy said no one truly knew Rhaegar.  

Aegon V was by all accounts a great man and king, but he died using sorcery and took several "innocents" with him.  We know we have untrustworthy narrators.  I'm just saying that there is a chance Rhaegar wasn't the awesome guy we've all been led to believe.

I am open to just about anything at this point. I think Rhaegar was mostly what we think he is, but he was also convinced of some potentially kooky stuff, or you might say dubious interpretation of prophecy, and he was thinking about things like the fate of the world and the prophesied savior, so that sort of thing can justify extreme, bizarre, or even monstrous actions, even from more or less "good" people. So yeah, there's a lot we don't know, but... I am sure that the reasoning and logic will all make perfect sense when George reveals it. 

37 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I agree and I think there's more than a chance that there are sides to Rhaegar that we have yet to see. And I think it's pretty near a certainty that there will be more and important disclosures about the Daynes as well. I will not be surprised if a Dayne connection with the Great Empire of the Dawn is eventually revealed.

How do you think this sort of thing might be confirmed? Will we get a POV inside Starfall somehow when Areo and Obara come to confront Darkstar? Howland Reed? Bran?

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In Chinese mythology white tiger symbolises autumn and the west, so if indeed the white-fire woman from vision is the tiger-woman of Yi Ti, that might suggest that the Bloodstone Emperor took some woman from the west as his wife... and of course Westeros comes to mind here... and of all westerosi races I think that the Children of the Forest are the most similar to felines, with their spotted skin, huge ears and green, gold and brown eyes... so if someone brought a COTF woman, the Yi Ti wouldn't know how to name her race, so they might name it after familiar animal from their region.... or the tiger-woman might have been one of the Ifequevron people. 

In some myths it is said that tiger's tail or body turns white after he reaches 500 years (COTF long lifespan?), another legends say that white tigers only appear when emperor or king of freat virtue reigns and the realm is in peace.

(YES, I want tigers to be somewhat rellevant to ASOIAF mythology and astronomy ;) )

 

Edited by Blue Tiger

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Just now, Blue Tiger said:

In Chineese mythology white tiger symbolises autumn and the west, so if indeed the white-fire woman from vision is the tiger-woman of Yi Ti, that might suggest that the Bloodstone Emperor took some woman from the west as his wife... and of course Westeros comes to mind here... and of all westerosi races I think that the Children of the Forest are the most similar to felines, with their spotted skin, huge ears and green, gold and brown eyes... so if someone brought a COTF woman, the Yi Ti wouldn't know how to name her race, so they might name it after familiar animal from their region.... or the tiger-woman might have been one of the Ifequevron people. 

In some myths it is said that tiger's tail or body turns white after he reaches 500 years (COTF long lifespan?), another legends say that white tigers only appear when emperor or king of freat virtue reigns and the realm is in peace.

(YES, I want tigers to be somewhat rellevant to ASOIAF mythology and astronomy ;) )

 

The other big Tiger clues are to be found on Leng, the land of 10,000 tigers. They have the Old Ones, who would seem to have golden eyes that they have passed on the Lengi people. The Old Ones may very well be some kind of tall version of the cotf. There are clues about skinchanging at Leng that revolve around frequent talk of "tiger skins," and the God Empress would seem a good match for the God Emperor, right? Tiger woman could have been an old-one female from Leng, or a human Old One hybrid, which may be something like a cotf... only taller. 

I like your idea though too, it makes a lot of sense. Nissa Nissa does mean "helpful / mischievous elf" after all, so the possibility of her being an elf of some kind has always been on the radar.  

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