Dragonslords, in Westeros, in the Dawn Age - How Azor Ahai Came to Westeros

[Cagey Bee]

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

According to the Wiki, the World of Ice and Fire app confirms that, I don't have the app, so could someone verify this?

I have the app. It does say, after saying Rhaegar died after giving Robert a serious wound:

"He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips." 

 

I wish i could add a screenshot to shownthe text, but can't  

@LmL Again, great work. My "bosses" left me alone to work today so I put the video on and walked around and listened. I definitely want to do a relisten, but it was all laid out so nicely... and you guys have way too much fun making these videos

 

[LmL]

5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I have the app. It does say, after saying Rhaegar died after giving Robert a serious wound:

"He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips." 

 

I wish i could add a screenshot to shownthe text, but can't  

@LmL Again, great work. My "bosses" left me alone to work today so I put the video on and walked around and listened. I definitely want to do a relisten, but it was all laid out so nicely... and you guys have way too much fun making these videos

 

Haha, right on! Just don't blame us if you get busted, lol. 

As for the order and the layout of info, that's where Aziz comes in, as well as the overall back-and-forth process we engaged in. We really got familiar with all the ideas and explored multiple different orders of presentation before settling on this. You really should watch the Asshai episode if you haven't yet; that one is really Part One to this. Anyway, glad you enjoyed it, I was very happy with how it came out. I think it's a really big and important idea that George was essentially trying to spell out in TWOIAF and which he plans on using in the conclusion of the story, so I wanted to present it to as wide an audience as possible in  as accessible a way as possible, and Aziz's show and format was perfect for that. 

And best of all, these types of connections simultaneously answers old questions while raising new ones... so there's a damn lot to talk about. That's why we are doing a follow up Q&A / free form discussion episode in a couple of weeks.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Haha, right on! Just don't blame us if you get busted, lol. 

As for the order and the layout of info, that's where Aziz comes in, as well as the overall back-and-forth process we engaged in. We really got familiar with all the ideas and explored multiple different orders of presentation before settling on this. You really should watch the Asshai episode if you haven't yet; that one is really Part One to this. Anyway, glad you enjoyed it, I was very happy with how it came out. I think it's a really big and important idea that George was essentially trying to spell out in TWOIAF and which he plans on using in the conclusion of the story, so I wanted to present it to as wide an audience as possible in  as accessible a way as possible, and Aziz's show and format was perfect for that. 

And best of all, these types of connections simultaneously answers old questions while raising new ones... so there's a damn lot to talk about. That's why we are doing a follow up Q&A / free form discussion episode in a couple of weeks.

I am a huge believer in the in-world history repeating itself... with a twist... which is something you guys mentioned near the end of the video. 

I think this because it really seems that George is playing a long game and is a point I have used in some of my own smaller write-ups. As Ziggy Marley sings, don't know your past, don't know your future. 

[Durran Durrandon]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

The other big Tiger clues are to be found on Leng, the land of 10,000 tigers. They have the Old Ones, who would seem to have golden eyes that they have passed on the Lengi people. The Old Ones may very well be some kind of tall version of the cotf. There are clues about skinchanging at Leng that revolve around frequent talk of "tiger skins," and the God Empress would seem a good match for the God Emperor, right? Tiger woman could have been an old-one female from Leng, or a human Old One hybrid, which may be something like a cotf... only taller. 

I like your idea though too, it makes a lot of sense. Nissa Nissa does mean "helpful / mischievous elf" after all, so the possibility of her being an elf of some kind has always been on the radar.  

Just a random thought, some of the folks on the forums that have challenged the official history of the conflict between the First Men and the Children have questioned why the Last Hero had to go questing to find the Children if the conflict had ended with a peaceful pact. Might it make more sense if the Last Hero was from Essos and therefor had to travel to Westeros to find the Children. Then as Blue Tiger suggest he might have taken one as a bride. Granted, I have always like Leng better for this, but I do like the idea of the Tiger being a hint for West. I'm just thinking out loud hear. Plus I have a headaches, so I'm not thinking really well.

Anyhow, great podcast.

 

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I am a huge believer in the in-world history repeating itself... with a twist... which is something you guys mentioned near the end of the video. 

I think this because it really seems that George is playing a long game and is a point I have used in some of my own smaller write-ups. As Ziggy Marley sings, don't know your past, don't know your future. 

Yeah that's the 'house of mirrors' i was talking about. I sometimes describe it as a 'fractal' web of symbols and archetypes and actions... so many reflections and parallels and inverted parallels that you can lose gourmand if you do not tread carefully. Sometimes it's hard to talk about clearly, but I know a lot of people get it because a lot of people are noticing the parallel characters and actions and are doing great analysis on them. 

[LmL]

1 minute ago, Durran Durrandon said:

Just a random thought, some of the folks on the forums that have challenged the official history of the conflict between the First Men and the Children have questioned why the Last Hero had to go questing to find the Children if the conflict had ended with a peaceful pact. Might it make more sense if the Last Hero was from Essos and therefor had to travel to Westeros to find the Children. Then as Blue Tiger suggest he might have taken one as a bride. Granted, I have always like Leng better for this, but I do like the idea of the Tiger being a hint for West. I'm just thinking out loud hear. Plus I have a headaches, so I'm not thinking really well.

Anyhow, great podcast.

 

haha, yeah I do think it's a good idea and one which is definitely in play (the tiger woman as a cotf). 

As for the timeline, I tend to think the war against the children may have only stopped with the Long Night, and that the Pact came right after the Long Night - after the children helped man survive and overcome the LN. That actually lines up well with the TV show timeline, though i won't discuss that outside of 

spoiler tags.. now that we are alone, yeah, the story the show is giving us is that the children made the Others to fight back against man, then banded together with man to defeat Others, presumably after the Others got out of control or whatever. This would indicate the war went right up to the Long Night, and that teamwork between man and children came about because of and during the Long Night. The cultural bottleneck of the Long Night also provides a good explanation for why the First Men might have abandoned their previous religion and adopted that of the former enemies... the bottleneck explains the loss of old ways, and the idea of the children saving man's bacon explains why man might come to worship the Old Gods afterward. 

I have also laid out a lot of evidence that the Hammer of the Waterrs was a moon meteor that fell at the time of the Long Night, and the pact supposedly comes soon after the Hammer. All of that makes sense if the hammer felt the time of the LN and the pact came right after the LN. 

That's been my internal canon for a while now, and to me it makes the most sense. That's what I was talking about in the "First Men of the Dawn" section when I said I thought that the fact that the Age of Heroes describes people who founded great houses and power structures which exist to this day indicates those heroes lived right after the Long Night, not before. So, to be overly simplistic, to me it goes

Dawn Age --> Long Night / Hammer --> LH, War for the Dawn, Pact --> Age of Heroes.

[Scorpion92]

As always, great work @LmL!

I am currently working on an essay that brings evidence of Dany's unproven heritage, and how she is most likely the bastard daughter of Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne (long story short, Dany was sold as a slave child in Lys to Illyrio Mopatis to be used as "Daenerys Targaryen" in his and Varys' future plots because original Daenerys did not survive long - that is why her memories of childhood of Dorne). 

She is the other half of "Ice and Fire", the future "ice moon" for "solar king" Jon, and their child (who I believe will be named Ned Stark) is "the prince that was promised", "a SONg of ice and fire", and "Lightbringer" (like his father Jon is "Lightbringer" according to Schmendrick's essay), and your essays kinda point House Dayne's connection to "pure, light bringing fire" (Jaime's dream of a sword burning with pale blue light), not "destructive and bloody" one of Targaryens (corrupted by Bloodstone Emperor, red and black). If Daynes have connection to original dragonlords from Asshai, it is not that surprising that Dany is tapping into her mother's side heritage.

Just like Jon has the look of her mother Lyanna, Dany has the look of her mother Ashara - an "ice moon" to Eddard Stark's "solar king" (correct me if I am wrong, but you showed some evidences how Eddard is "solar king" archetype too in some instances).

I will transfer my thoughts to your "language" to show you that Dany being Ned and Ashara's daughter kinda makes sense (lol):

Eddard Stark - "solar king", "sun", "Bloodstone Emperor", "Sword of the Evening" AFTER he took Dawn from "Sword of the Morning" Arthur, which basically means USURPATION, even though it is temporary. Ned usurped Dawn, making him "Sword of the Evening" archetype.

Ashara Dayne - "ice moon", "Amethyst Empress".

His trip to Starfall to return Dawn to Daynes - "star fall", "the start of Long Night", the "icy comet slowly transforming to fiery, red one as it approaches the moon".

Giving back Dawn to Ashara - "giving his sword to her",

When Ned tells Ashara that he is Lord of Winterfell and now married to Catelyn, he basically commits the act of "blood betrayal" because he possibly promised to marry her back at Harrenhal after "dishonoring her" according to Barristan. "Azor Ahai putting burning sword through Nissa Nissa' heart" - Ned breaking Ashara's heart with his news.

So the only thing missing here is the part of "creation of Lightbringer". Which makes me to speculate that Ned and Ashara "forged a Lightbringer" (Dany) during their goodbye sex (she was already not a virgin that time). I bet that Ned was not that strong in honor and allowed a moment of weakness once he realized he would never be together with the beautiful woman he loved. It is very tragic actually.

Come on, you gotta admit, there are many components of Azor Ahai and Nissa NIssa, solar king and ice queen in Ned and Ashara's storyline. Let me know what you think.

Also kinda explains why Dany sees her ancestors in House of Undying - opal, topaz, jade and other emperors. They are ancestors of House Dayne, the rightful royal line of Great Empire of the Dawn that got deposed by Bloodstone Emperor. Also, her connection to wolves. You might be aware there are many passages of "wolves" in Dany's chapters.

Again, my essay is in progress, but thanks a lot for yours.

[Sensenmenn]

AA is from the first LN, he is the blood stone emperor who brought about the first LN that destroyed the GEotD. Then after the LN people from that empire migrated west until the first men made their way to westeros. Then the second LN happened and it was the last hero who ended this one. The last hero had nothing to do with essos and its already been confirmed that the pact was peacefuly achieved long before the long befor the long night.

[LmL]

55 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

AA is from the first LN, he is the blood stone emperor who brought about the first LN that destroyed the GEotD. Then after the LN people from that empire migrated west until the first men made their way to westeros. Then the second LN happened and it was the last hero who ended this one. The last hero had nothing to do with essos and its already been confirmed that the pact was peacefuly achieved long before the long befor the long night.

The dating of the pact - and all the other events of the Dawn Age and Age of Heroes - are the opposite of confirmed. We really have way whatsoever to know for sure when or even if any of these things happened. None of this was written down at the time and all of it occurred thousands of years ago, so there is no fact at play here it all. All we can do is try to put pieces together and make our best guesses, but we have no way to be sure. The maesters are very transparent about this - anything before the Andals came is layered in myth and fable. 

[Sensenmenn]

6 minutes ago, LmL said:

The dating of the pact - and all the other events of the Dawn Age and Age of Heroes - are the opposite of confirmed. We really have way whatsoever to know for sure when or even if any of these things happened. None of this was written down at the time and all of it occurred thousands of years ago, so there is no fact at play here it all. All we can do is try to put pieces together and make our best guesses, but we have no way to be sure. The maesters are very transparent about this - anything before the Andals came is layered in myth and fable. 

Fair enough but i still maintain that there were two long nights its the only way the two stories(AA and LH) and the importance of the east make sense.

[LmL]

57 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

Fair enough but i still maintain that there were two long nights its the only way the two stories(AA and LH) and the importance of the east make sense.

That's an interesting theory, and there's nothing to rule it out.. but there's nothing really to suggest it either, is there? I mean this whole video was another way in which the link between AA and the LH can make sense... did you watch it?

[Sensenmenn]

6 minutes ago, LmL said:

That's an interesting theory, and there's nothing to rule it out.. but there's nothing really to suggest it either, is there? I mean this whole video was another way in which the link between AA and the LH can make sense... did you watch it?

I don't have time right now I'll watch it later.

but with out waching it it still doesn't make sense for them to be the same. AA is the blood stone emperor, had a flaming sword, practiced blood scorcery, worshiped a black oily stone that fell from the heavens and is from literally the other side of the planet. While the LH had dragon steal,(never mentioned to be on fire) was not a ruler befor founding hous stark but a traveling builder, has no forces beneath him but for 12 companions, and seeks out the children for help agenst the other which he wouldn't need to if he slready had dragons and a flaming sword.

so it's obvious their not the same person.

[Greywater-Watch]

And what if all these theories are wrong? I wonder.

A song is linked to music, instruments, words. Maybe the two horns (Joramund's horn and dragonbinder) are the instruments involved? Maybe a yet undiscovered spell written on a parchment/scroll?

[King Tyrion I]

Thank you for notifying me! =o)

Otherwise I would have certainly missed the new ep. Gonna subscribe.

[LmL]

6 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

And what if all these theories are wrong? I wonder.

A song is linked to music, instruments, words. Maybe the two horns (Joramund's horn and dragonbinder) are the instruments involved? Maybe a yet undiscovered spell written on a parchment/scroll?

What do you mean by "all these theories?"

As for the title and the implications of the "Song," there are many. It's a complex and multifaceted metaphor. It's calling out to Norse myth, whose stories were generally referred to as sagas and songs, and of course he's doing all sorts of things with singers of various kinds, and also the "song" of swords or battle. 

I do think the horns and sound magic in general are a part of it, but definitely not the only part. I don't tend to think any one element or thing is "the most important" - horns are important, flaming swords are important, comets are important, and most of all, the characters and their archetypes are important. In many cases they mirror and parallel each other. For example, the symbolism of Dragonbinder is pure Lightbringer symbolism - the sound of it even splits the air like a sword. 

I do have some specific ideas about the horns however - I've been sitting on that one for a while now, saving it for a future essay. I definitely think they are important. 

[LmL]

8 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

I don't have time right now I'll watch it later.

but with out waching it it still doesn't make sense for them to be the same. AA is the blood stone emperor, had a flaming sword, practiced blood scorcery, worshiped a black oily stone that fell from the heavens and is from literally the other side of the planet. While the LH had dragon steal,(never mentioned to be on fire) was not a ruler befor founding hous stark but a traveling builder, has no forces beneath him but for 12 companions, and seeks out the children for help agenst the other which he wouldn't need to if he slready had dragons and a flaming sword.

so it's obvious their not the same person.

Well all I can say is give the video a watch before you dismiss the idea entirely. To your point, I don't necessarily think AA has to = the LH: many scenarios are possible. Maybe the LH just had AA's sword. Maybe LH was a descendent of AA (I prefer the idea that LH is the son of AA). Here are many ways it could work out and I don't come down heavily in favor of one specific scenario. The main point of this theory is that there is direct cultural contact between pre-Valyrian dragonlords from Asshai and Dawn Age Westeros, and that opens up the possibility for Dawn and the LH to have SOME kind of relationship or connection to Azor Ahai and Light ringer, however you want to sketch in the details. 

[dornishdame]

Have to say I loved the episode as always.  Even in the recent past (compared to the main story) there are instances of history almost repeating itself, but with a little twist.  To look for any clues in relation to the forthcoming Long Night, it makes sense to look at the last one - and the connection to the Great Empire is intriguing.  Of course, the histories available in Westeros were written by the maesters; they were written by men who have closed their eyes to magic and to anything that cannot be explained rationally.  As a result of this we have been left with a history that is incomplete and inaccurate.  As for Azor Ahai, this opened up a lot more lines of consideration for me on how the Great Empire could be linked to Valyria - and whether the Prince that was Promised is potentially a descendant from a Great Empire family that married into a Valyrian family (Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised are definitely linked - it is just that every time I have it figured out, I identify multiple holes in my argument!).    

I have so many thoughts regarding this - and really need to go back and re-watch to make sense of some of them! I was particularly interested in the idea that the Dayne family are descendants of this pre-Valyrian society, and it would make the marriage of Maekar and Dyanna Dayne more significant than merely a political move related to the integration of Dorne into the realm.  It goes back to an idea that I got on board with ages ago relating to the extent to which magical blood is transmitted through the female line - Bloodraven gets his skinchanging skills through his mother's Blackwood line; the Starks appear to have developed a habit of removing rival kings and then marrying a daughter of the now-removed king into the Stark line and thereby ensuring that any magical abilities (such as warging) were incorporated into their gene pool.  The incestuous marriages of Dyanna's grandchildren and great-grandchildren has ensured that the blood Daenerys (and Jon) inherit is not as diluted as it might be.  Just like Betha's Blackwood blood is not diluted as much as it might have been (completely unrelated, but I do wonder how significant it might be that two of Jon's great-great grandmothers were Blackwood women).  The Dayne connection also got me back to thinking about the Dayne words - the fact that they are apparently considered too spoilery - and precisely how the Sword of the Morning is chosen (and if that differs from the process of choosing a Sword of the Evening).  

The Hightowers become more and more interesting every time I think of them, and I wonder how deliberate it is that the truly intriguing families - like the Daynes and Hightowers - are not the leading family in their region.  

[Greywater-Watch]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

What do you mean by "all these theories?"

All (or most) theories I have read refer in one way or another to swords or weapons alike, basing themselves on what happened in the past (Azhor Azhai, Lightbringer) to oppose and push back a Long Night; plus of course the prophecies that seem to direct towards a duplication of these events. However, this method in the past did not really terminate the threat, it just gave it a rest for some thousand years.

Maybe a different approach is needed to extinguish the threat, once and forever? A song instead of a sword.

[LmL]

21 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

All (or most) theories I have read refer in one way or another to swords or weapons alike, basing themselves on what happened in the past (Azhor Azhai, Lightbringer) to oppose and push back a Long Night; plus of course the prophecies that seem to direct towards a duplication of these events. However, this method in the past did not really terminate the threat, it just gave it a rest for some thousand years.

Maybe a different approach is needed to extinguish the threat, once and forever? A song instead of a sword.

Right on, I see what you are getting at. Firstly, i would say that many believe the first Long Night was not ended by a simple matter of swordsmanship or battle, magic sword or no. I like the ideas related to some sort of peace pact or ceasefire with the Others, or perhaps the key was some kind of sacrifice or atonement. The LH has a lot of sacrificial themes in his story, I think, and the people who parallel the LH do too. So yeah, I definitely think that whether we are talking old or new LN, it will come down to more than just magic sword.It has to center around the characters and their choices of course, Martin beats us over the head with that bloody Faulkner quote about the heart in conflict. 

As for the repeating events and the idea that we only neutralized the threat, not eliminated it, i agree, that seems to be the case. I suspect that either 1.) the New Long Night will be similarly fought off but not permanently defeated; or, 2.) we will need to do something different than last time to effect a permanent solution. Perhaps the original events need to be replayed in an inverse fashion, or with some key difference. I would expect this to be true in some sense - it can't be just doing an exact replay.

And I would also remind you of symbolism - a song can be battle or sex or actual song. It can simply represent harmony as a principle. Same for swords - they are swords, yes, but also penises and comets and dragons and a symbol of knowledge (the flaming sword in particular). And I do not think Martin is elevating any one of these ideas above another - they are are dancing together, as I can see.