Dragonslords, in Westeros, in the Dawn Age - How Azor Ahai Came to Westeros

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

A second listen to the GEotD Q&A gave me another thought. What colour are dragons' eyes?

Are they big and gold? Like, say, tiger eyes? And Lengi tiger-peoples' eyes? 

Or maybe this is a dead end? 

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Got a shoutout in the Q&A Ep, my celebritay is through the roof!

Here's the spiel on the name Dayne from the real world, I've bolded the "COME ON!" moments. When I first read this, it seemed so obvious that I wondered if GRRM has been planting these explanations around the innerwebs to eff with us.

Quote

This rather unusual surname is of early medieval English origin, and is from a nickname for a worthy and honourable citizen, probably an Alderman or Burgess of the town. The name is derived from the Middle English (1200 - 1500) "d(e)igne, deyn(e), dain(e)", worthy, fitting, from the Old French "digne", originally from the Latin "dignus". This is an example of that sizeable group of early European surnames that were gradual ually created from the habitual use of nicknames. The nicknames were given in the first instance with reference to a variety of characteristics, such as physical attributes or peculiarities, mental and moral characteristics, supposed resemblance to an animal's or bird's appearance or disposition, or to habits of dress.

There is also a possible, unconfirmed, second meaning where it comes from a now-lost placename (ultimately from the word for "valley"), but the earliest record of the name refers to the nickname meaning.

And lets spare ourselves the dignus/dingus jokes, we are better than that (we're not).

[LordImp]

There is a half moon and a falcon flying towards it on the Arryn sigil , does it mean something ? 

[LmL]

21 hours ago, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

Got a shoutout in the Q&A Ep, my celebritay is through the roof!

Here's the spiel on the name Dayne from the real world, I've bolded the "COME ON!" moments. When I first read this, it seemed so obvious that I wondered if GRRM has been planting these explanations around the innerwebs to eff with us.

There is also a possible, unconfirmed, second meaning where it comes from a now-lost placename (ultimately from the word for "valley"), but the earliest record of the name refers to the nickname meaning.

And lets spare ourselves the dignus/dingus jokes, we are better than that (we're not).

Oh man, you took me out at the kneecaps on the dingus joke thing. You're a real bastard LPC. 

Thanks for filling out the Dayne / worthy thing, that was really interesting. It sure fits awfully well.

[Bluetiger]

19 hours ago, LordImp said:

There is a half moon and a falcon flying towards it on the Arryn sigil , does it mean something ? 

I've suggested that falcon is equivalent to sword, as when Ser Vardis Egen (his sigil shows  yellow sun, white crescent moon, and silver star on blue chief above white and motto of the Egens is "By Day or Night".)  fights Bronn he's wielding Jon Arryn's sword with falcon as a pommel - so the falcon would represent Lightbringer here. It's also possible that falcon is a moon metteor flying from the shattered moon. 

here is 'falcon' entry from Symbolism Wiki: http://symbolism.wikia.com/wiki/Falcon

[LordImp]

6 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

I've suggested that falcon is equivalent to sword, as when Ser Vardis Egen (his sigil shows  yellow sun, white crescent moon, and silver star on blue chief above white and motto of the Egens is "By Day or Night".)  fights Bronn he's wielding Jon Arryn's sword with falcon as a pommel - so the falcon would represent Lightbringer here. It's also possible that falcon is a moon metteor flying from the shattered moon. 

here is 'falcon' entry from Symbolism Wiki: http://symbolism.wikia.com/wiki/Falcon

Nice. It took me a while to see that it was actually a moon on the Arryn sigil.

[LmL]

@LordImp, @Blue Tiger, Blue Tiger has it pretty much right. The falcon sword is a good catch and kind of the giveaway. That lends credence to the idea that he Age of Heroes character of the Winged Knight may well have been a dragonrider. But in any case, yes, the Eyrie is all about the moon door. When people fall out the moon door, it's simulating the fall of meteors from the moon (or the fall of the moon you might say). Thing is, the Eyrie and all of its symbolism is blue and cold. That's not our fire moon mother of dragons, I don't think - this would be ice moon symbolism. According to the two moon theory, the one that died was associated with fire and the one that still hangs in the sky with ice. Places like Dragonstone, Harrenhall, the Dragonpit at KL, etc, symbolize this fire moon, while places like White Harbor and the Eyrie, the ice moon. So I believe that's the lense we use to more specifically interpret what is going on at the Eyrie. There are some really amazing chapters there. 

BT, you can see several iterations of the "black stone lodged in the ice moon" idea here. Blackfish Tully of the obsidian fish has the Gates of the Moon, Tyrion a dragon becomes lodged in there, and fire moon Sansa gets stuck there too and when she does, she gets frozen over and then plays out a NQ metaphor when she makes snow knights and a snow castle. I am still working on that but I plan to rip into the Eyrie when I get to my "Moons of Ice and Fire" series which explore all these places and compare them.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

On 29/10/2016 at 11:33 PM, LmL said:

. That lends credence to the idea that he Age of Heroes character of the Winged Knight may well have been a dragonrider.

You know how the First Men weren't lettered, and all these stories were passed down orally... things get misheard and then reinterpreted in a new context. I wonder what colour a dragon called the Winged (k)Night might have been .

[Sly Wren]

On October 23, 2016 at 6:42 PM, LmL said:

As for blood, Bran's blood makes him a greenseer, but what kind of greenseer will he be? That's up to the character. In other words, I don't see any conflict between fantasy ideas such as magic blood and the "heart in conflict" ideas that revolve around characters. 

Okay--my reply to you disappeared. Trying one more time:

Agreed. I would only add that Martin has pushed against the idea of magic blood, let alone "royal" blood as giving anyone the right to anything. Part of the puzzle, yes. But a magic equation, no.

The Night's King being thrown down by his brother Stark seems to be a good case in point.

On October 24, 2016 at 8:57 PM, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

So, the King Arthur myth is linked to a fifth-century chief in Britain, in post-Roman times. As the story goes -- or rather the story of Ambrosius Aurelanius -- after the Romans left Britain in around 410 because their empire was a slow-motion train wreck, he was a Christian (sort of code for 'highly Romanised') chieftain who led a spirited defence of the good Romano-British people against evil heathen invaders. And also the neighbouring chieftains. Kind of a last gasp of the noble dying empire against the encroaching forces of chaos.

YUP! He's also put in the sleeping kings under the mountain in the Winterfell crypts (under a hill). Like Arthur's supposedly sleeping under a mountain with his best men until Britain needs them to rise and defend them. 

 

On October 24, 2016 at 8:57 PM, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

It looks like George is going as close as possible to the King Arthur mythology. I am now roughly 100% certain that the Sword of the Morning and Dawn will make a literal comeback in the person of one of our Heroes of Might and Destiny. And then George will probably fuck with the whole thing. 

I agree. The twist should be interesting.

On October 25, 2016 at 0:33 AM, LmL said:

Here's the thing, there is only one sword which can wear the title of "most important sword" in ASOIAF, and it isn't Danw, not by a longshot. It's Ice, of course, and my money is on Oathkeeper as the most important actual sword we have left. A sword fight with Dawn and Oathkeeper would surely be too much to hope for, but who knows. 

But why only one important sword? There are two big threats: the Others and the dragons. So, why not a sword for each?

With Ice being a standing for an older sword, seems like the older sword matters more. Especially since we've been hearing about the Sword of the Morning and Dawn--the one and only completely unique and most ancient blade in the story--since Cat's second POV. 

On October 25, 2016 at 0:33 AM, LmL said:

I think Dawn is a dragon-killer, myself. 

Could be. Or an Ice Dragon (Other) killer. Perhaps both are constellations for a reason.

On October 25, 2016 at 0:33 AM, LmL said:

As you say, Martin is working the themes, but he always fucks it up, which leaves us unsure (and that's part of the idea no doubt). But I think we should look for some kind of hurrah from the Daynes and Hightowers one way or the other.

Amen.

[Sly Wren]

On October 29, 2016 at 9:33 AM, LmL said:

The falcon sword is a good catch and kind of the giveaway. That lends credence to the idea that he Age of Heroes character of the Winged Knight may well have been a dragonrider.

But we also have the Winged Wolf. And "you won't walk but fly." And a continent with a very, very long history of skinchanging. Sounds like very good reasons for thinking the Winged Knight "rode" a falcon the way skin changers ride animals. Especially since the Winged Knight was apparently not an Andal.

[Bael's Bastard]

I imagine it has been discussed at some point, but do you see any scenario in which Ned actually kills Arthur with Dawn?

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I imagine it has been discussed at some point, but do you see any scenario in which Ned actually kills Arthur with Dawn?

It would be cool. And would fit with the theory that the fight between Ned and Arthur brought back the Others.

But we've got this SSM: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2015/06/

 Asked if Ned ever used Ice in battle. George points out it was a greatsword, very large and cumbersome, a ceremonial sword for beheading people more than a fighting sword, so he suggests that it was "probably too heavy and clumsy" to use unless you're the Mountain. So, I think that's a pretty clear "no".

Which doesn't say he never used Ice in battle. But sounds like it was very, very unlikely.

[Bael's Bastard]

1 minute ago, Sly Wren said:

It would be cool. And would fit with the theory that the fight between Ned and Arthur brought back the Others.

But we've got this SSM: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2015/06/

 Asked if Ned ever used Ice in battle. George points out it was a greatsword, very large and cumbersome, a ceremonial sword for beheading people more than a fighting sword, so he suggests that it was "probably too heavy and clumsy" to use unless you're the Mountain. So, I think that's a pretty clear "no".

Which doesn't say he never used Ice in battle. But sounds like it was very, very unlikely.

My question is about Dawn, not Ice. Ned is especially unlikely to have used Ice against Arthur. But Arthur did use Dawn in battle. So I wonder, if Ned for whatever reason got his hands on Dawn during the battle, does anyone see a scenario where he uses Dawn to kill Arthur?

[Sly Wren]

1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

My question is about Dawn, not Ice. Ned is especially unlikely to have used Ice against Arthur. But Arthur did use Dawn in battle. So I wonder, if Ned for whatever reason got his hands on Dawn during the battle, does anyone see a scenario where he uses Dawn to kill Arthur?

*face palm*

That's what happens when you forum whilst feverish.

Very sorry.

And yes--I do think there's definitely a chance of that. If Ned had to be saved from Howland, sounds like he could very well have been disarmed. If Howland didn't finish Arthur off and if Arthur's sword was closer to Ned than his own--yes. I do think that Ned could have killed Arthur with Dawn. 

[LordImp]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

My question is about Dawn, not Ice. Ned is especially unlikely to have used Ice against Arthur. But Arthur did use Dawn in battle. So I wonder, if Ned for whatever reason got his hands on Dawn during the battle, does anyone see a scenario where he uses Dawn to kill Arthur?

I know i'm not supposed to do this but

Ned actually kills Arthur with Dawn on the show [\Spoiler]

[LmL]

On 10/30/2016 at 2:13 PM, Sly Wren said:

But we also have the Winged Wolf. And "you won't walk but fly." And a continent with a very, very long history of skinchanging. Sounds like very good reasons for thinking the Winged Knight "rode" a falcon the way skin changers ride animals. Especially since the Winged Knight was apparently not an Andal.

Yes, that's also a very realistic possibility, perhaps more likely even. But when you know that dragonlords came to Westeros in the Dawn Age as we do now, we are on the hunt for Dawn Age dragon lord sightings, so this is an obvious one to consider. If it's not a dragon lord, I'd think it would have to be a skinchanger thing, surely. 

[LmL]

On 10/30/2016 at 8:50 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

You know how the First Men weren't lettered, and all these stories were passed down orally... things get misheard and then reinterpreted in a new context. I wonder what colour a dragon called the Winged (k)Night might have been .

There is a lot of night / knight puny going on, I've caught that already for sure. Knight's son or son of a knight = night sun, for example. 

[LmL]

On 10/30/2016 at 2:10 PM, Sly Wren said:

Okay--my reply to you disappeared. Trying one more time:

Agreed. I would only add that Martin has pushed against the idea of magic blood, let alone "royal" blood as giving anyone the right to anything. Part of the puzzle, yes. But a magic equation, no.

The Night's King being thrown down by his brother Stark seems to be a good case in point.

Not sure what hair you are trying to split here, but magic blood is indisputably a hint. The greenseer and skinchanger ability is passed down through blood, and the Targaryens clearly have a unique physiology. We have exactly one dragonrider ever who may not have had tag blood, but there's an equally good chance that she did, so it is almost certain that the blood of the dragon is needed to tame dragons. Perhaps you can explain the distinction you are trying to make here, I don't seem to be getting it. 

[LmL]

On 10/30/2016 at 2:10 PM, Sly Wren said:

Could be. Or an Ice Dragon (Other) killer. Perhaps both are constellations for a reason.

Basically, I was thinking that if V steel kills Others, then perhaps Dawn kills dragons. Just kind of a symmetrical logic thing, I don't have anything to go on beyond that. But, if Dawn is original Ice, and made with some kind of "ice magic," then it may have that quality locked inside it, just as frozen fire and probably v steel has fire magic locked inside capable of melting Others. You have to admit that would be pretty badass if someone kills a dragon with Dawn somehow. Like the desired Oathkeeper vs. Dawn battle I was wishing for, it's probably too much to hope for. 

[LmL]

On 10/30/2016 at 2:40 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

I imagine it has been discussed at some point, but do you see any scenario in which Ned actually kills Arthur with Dawn?

 

On 10/30/2016 at 3:55 PM, Sly Wren said:

It would be cool. And would fit with the theory that the fight between Ned and Arthur brought back the Others.

But we've got this SSM: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2015/06/

 Asked if Ned ever used Ice in battle. George points out it was a greatsword, very large and cumbersome, a ceremonial sword for beheading people more than a fighting sword, so he suggests that it was "probably too heavy and clumsy" to use unless you're the Mountain. So, I think that's a pretty clear "no".

Which doesn't say he never used Ice in battle. But sounds like it was very, very unlikely.

LoL, this is my least favorite SSM ever. I really wanted to imagine an Ice vs Dawn showdown at the ToJ, just as I want to see oathkeeper vs Dawn now. But what @Bael's Bastard is suggesting is not ruled out by that SSM, he's asking if Ned might have taken Dawn from Arthur and finished him with it, and I think that's possible, sure. There are other examples of people being killed with their own weapons - Ned, obviously, and Oberyn tries to do it to the Mountain when he takes his sword to chop his head off. I can't say exactly what the symbolic parallel would be, usually it is a black meteor symbol getting jammed into icy things (the white KG armor being an icy moon symbol). 

ETA: oh ok @Sly Wren I see you caught that too. Cheers.