Do you believe Preston Jacobs' explanation for dragon riding?

[The Sleeper]

6 hours ago, Lady Lia said:

However, Aegon himself couldn't have inherited Maekar's X, nor could Maekar have Daeron's. So either it was Betha's, as 40 Thousand Skeletons (and presumably Preston Jacobs?) seems to be saying, or Aegon inherited it from Dyanna Dayne. Which I suppose is not out of the question, Daynes being mysterious and purple-eyed and all.

I suppose Aegon II puts a damper on dragonriding being inherited through the mother as he was a dragon rider and his mother was a Hightower. House Targaryen in its entirety descends from Viserys II.

I doubt genealogy such as this will become an issue as through Aegon the unworthy and various unaccounted offshoots of the Targaryen family there could potentially be hundreds of characters with Targaryen blood.

I'm pretty sure there is a reason for the Blackwoods having prominent members and a hint of magical potential and that the Daynes can pass for Targaryens, but I doubt this is it.

[Viking]

I don't think the math is necessarily true. However I can buy the idea that Aegon V revives sibling incest Going up the Tree

Aerys II - Sister

Jaherys - Sister

Aegon V - Blackwood

Maekar I - Dayne

Aerys I - Penrose

Daeron II - Martell

Aegon IV - Sister

 

For four generations they had married outside the family and the last one to marry his sister was Aegon the Unworthy. They are breaking a great taboo and emulating the worst king ever. You don't do that even if it is for love, you do it for dragons and prophecy. 

 

I don't think Martin has done the math, I just think that the intuitive idea of repeated generations of inbreeding causing madness and/or something pure targaryen related to dragons and prophecy is an idea that fits all the facts. It's these prophecies that dominate the lives of Aerys II and Rhaegar and it's this prophecy that Jon Snow is going to have to fulfil. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

On Sunday, 30 October 2016 at 11:01 PM, Werthead said:

Preston Jacobs has taken a very clever and astute attitude to ASoIaF fandom. He's a relative Jonny-come-lately who's realised that all the most logical, well-supported and best theorising was done many years ago, so he's taken the line of coming up with plausible theories (usually discussed or created by other people, many of them on this forum) and then spinning them out into elaborate, often insane tinfoil.

That in itself is fine. He makes money out of it, people like watching the videos so whatever. However, he's also appropriated other fans (and professional) artwork and not given credit for it. That is not cool or acceptable. He's also gotten into some very nasty flame wars and tried to get his followers to harrass and troll groups that have successfully called him out in the past rather than getting into any kind of debate. That is also not acceptable.

What really isn't acceptable, and certainly has not endeared him to any fans who know GRRM personally, is when he's tried to concoct elaborate theories by speculating on George's private life and responded to any argument where people point out how George has shot down his theory (often ten years before he came up with it) with "He's lying then,". That shit does not fly on this forum.

George put as much thought into the genetics of warging and dragon-riding as he did how hair colour is transmitted, how the Wall remains standing when it would need to by a pyramidcal shape or keel right over, or how the planet survived the Doom of Valyria when it should have buried half the world under ash and killed off most higher animal forms, or how anyone in a medieval-level society survives a mini ice age every couple of decades: Rule of Cool, "It's fantasy", "Genetics work differently in this world."

It's fine for fans to try to put together crazy theories based on whatever they like, but the second they start accusing the author of lying and deception, it becomes a problem.

Lol!

 

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Lol!

 

Of what?

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

Nettles was described as dark skinned and its unlikely all the dragonseeds on dragonstone line up with this theory. Especially netty 

[Lady Lia]

18 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Nettles was described as dark skinned and its unlikely all the dragonseeds on dragonstone line up with this theory. Especially netty 

Well, if a Targaryen slept with someone from the Summer Islands, the probable result or grandresult would be a dark-skinned person with dragonrider genes. That doesn't seem like a problem.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On November 15, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Lady Lia said:

Well, if a Targaryen slept with someone from the Summer Islands, the probable result or grandresult would be a dark-skinned person with dragonrider genes. That doesn't seem like a problem.

But it goes out of the way to say she fed her dragon sheepstealer fresh.... Sheep. You could make the point it also points out how women looked at targs as godly more than mortal and some were anxious? I'll say to get a dragonseed. But I just never thought all the dragonseeds weren't legit. Like Hugh the Hammer? Just not buying it

[Lady Lia]

46 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

But it goes out of the way to say she fed her dragon sheepstealer fresh.... Sheep. You could make the point it also points out how women looked at targs as godly more than mortal and some were anxious? I'll say to get a dragonseed. But I just never thought all the dragonseeds weren't legit. Like Hugh the Hammer? Just not buying it

Why not Hugh?

[matsuki]

So...I have a theory

40 Thousand Skeletons = PJ

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 hour ago, matsuki said:

So...I have a theory

40 Thousand Skeletons = PJ

Pretty sure PJ is @Skinchanging Sweetrobin

[Grievous]

Hmm.

Actually, I kinda like the theory - whether it is true or not. I have a few doubts in parts of it, but I'll have to come back to my notes with those. For now, however, I'll air one piece that strikes me and seems to come at this from a completely different direction.

If the Targaryens knew how this works (roughly or exactly), which parts of the theory seem to lean on (Maegor picking Rhaena to marry and Aerea as heir, for example) and which would seem logical, then it is also logical that before any Targaryen marriage is done, they would check 1) whether the child hatched their egg and 2) whether the child can bond with a dragon.

In case where 1) is true, the child becomes hugely important to the family and must marry back into the Targaryen line. In case of 2), the child is valuable to the family and especially valuable as a marriage to a known hatcher. In case where neither is true, the child's worth in regards to breeding is questionable.

To me it doesn't seem like this was practiced. I'd have to double check though, but Targaryens seem to be often married before either 1) or 2) have been proven/disproven. Additionally, two times a female who can hatch has been married to the Velaryons. This seems a great "gift" to give to another house (implying almost a knowing transferring of the dragonriding capability, which while perhaps not entirely out of the question, is a huge thing!) and in the first case, Rhaenys and Corlys, the man was certainly not a proven dragonriders or even a carrier of the gene. Rhaenys could have married Viserys I to secure the best breeding, but instead married the Velaryon. In the second case, of Rhaenyra, it does seem Laenor was a proven a dragonrider before the marriage, though.

In any case, the lack of any kind of testing of Targaryen (and even Velaryon) children by the family seems a glaring omission if any of this was true (unless the very act of placing eggs in cradles is a form of testing).

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On November 16, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Lady Lia said:

Why not Hugh?

 I thought he was a blacksmith bastard.  And didn't see him bedding a Targ girl

[Lady Lia]

But his mother could have had a Targaryen ancestor. (Or if you go with dragonriding being hereditary but not necessarily matrilineal, the blacksmith could.)

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On November 18, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Lady Lia said:

But his mother could have had a Targaryen ancestor. (Or if you go with dragonriding being hereditary but not necessarily matrilineal, the blacksmith could.)

Yes I would go by heritage bc the dragons take a (somewhat) liking to Quentyn and brown Ben. But no way do I believe the theory not trying to fight with you I promise just imho and I respect your points u made 

[Lady Lia]

Do you mean you don't believe it's genetic, or you don't believe it's matrilineal? I'm not arguing the latter.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

Im saying u have to have at least a drop of Valyrian blood (many many many people). I guess I was wrong about  nettles feeding sheepstealer to submission 

Final Answer sorry rough question 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

And I just don't like maternal passing bc of Jon I suppose 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 01/11/2016 at 5:43 AM, Viking said:

I don't think the math is necessarily true. However I can buy the idea that Aegon V revives sibling incest Going up the Tree

Aerys II - Sister

Jaherys - Sister

Aegon V - Blackwood

Maekar I - Dayne

Aerys I - Penrose

Daeron II - Martell

Aegon IV - Sister

 

For four generations they had married outside the family and the last one to marry his sister was Aegon the Unworthy. They are breaking a great taboo and emulating the worst king ever. You don't do that even if it is for love, you do it for dragons and prophecy. 

 

I don't think Martin has done the math, I just think that the intuitive idea of repeated generations of inbreeding causing madness and/or something pure targaryen related to dragons and prophecy is an idea that fits all the facts. It's these prophecies that dominate the lives of Aerys II and Rhaegar and it's this prophecy that Jon Snow is going to have to fulfil. 

We are told in TWOIAF that Jaehaerys & Shaera married for love, he was betrothed to Celia Tully, & she to Lothar Tyrell. When they eloped, were married and then stayed in hiding for a short while before returning and announcing their union. Egg was apparently gutted but agreed not to contest the marriage when his children assured him that they had consummated it. 

 

 

Also, and not directed at you. The words believe and Preston Jacobs in the same sentence. BHhahahahahahahaha!!!!!

[Meglith]

Good morning all,

Sorry to resurrect a three-month-dormant thread, but I feel I want to share my thoughts, mostly because of the hostility i see in some posts towards Preston Jacobs' speculations. Now, don't get me wrong, I've definitely seen that many people on this forum don't respond with hostility but instead with polite disagreement, based on their honest critiques of his methods, and of course that is reasonable... But I think it's clear that others are dismissive and, frankly, rude wherever Mr Jacobs is mentioned.

I suppose I have no authority or right to dictate how others should respond to each other, but still, i wish i weren't seeing that type of disrespect within the GRRM fan-community.

For me, Preston Jacobs is a great source of entertainment and speculative musings as I wait for the next book. Certainly some of his conclusions are a bit extreme, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of his smaller theories turned out to be correct. I don't think we can deny his skill at identifying potential foreshadowing, his skill at collecting clues that bear the ring of familiarity from the previous foreshadowing in GRRM's works - the foreshadowing before Jaime losing his hand, before the reveal that Lysa poisoned Lord Arryn, and before the deaths of Ned, Robb, and Jon. I suppose there is ample evidence to be doubtful of his more extreme theories - especially as indeed, proving Mr Jacobs correct often requires the supposition that GRRM has intentionally misled his audience - but still, how is it harmful for him to speculate wildly until proven wrong?

For me, I was drawn in to the materials of fan-speculation through Mr Jacob's videos, and now I'm richer for them as I've been led to the essays at the Meerenese Blot, the writings by Cantuse, and by BryndenBFish. Without Mr Jacobs as my gateway, I wouldn't have learned what the rest of the fandom has to offer. And if/when/where Mr Jacobs' theories turn out to have been wildly inaccurate, I have to be honest... I'm going to be a little disappointed. As I watched his "Minds of Wolves and Robins" series, I started to think, "Holy crap, these ideas are way more interesting than anything else we've seen in the books up till now!"

Before his videos, I'd never been exposed to the concept of a fantasy-world that's secretly all telekinesis and lost sci-fi technologies, with aliens taking the place of elves and giants and genetic engineering being the ancient "blood-magic", nearly forgotten. And if the Martells aren't secretly one of the most bad-ass groups of scheming SOBs, playing the long-game, refusing to settle for second-place - but are instead just a poor little kingdom hoping to marry their way into power - i'll have lost out on a really, really intelligent group of villains to obsess over. And if he's wrong about Littlefinger playing at manipulating the Old Gods themselves, obsessing over a mysterious prophecy... then I'll be a little bored, because Littlefinger trying to steal godhood is way more badass than Littlefinger just being a money-savvy pedophile.

If Mr Jacobs is wrong about ASoIaF, (and yes, logically, the odds are good that in many places he is) I'll be a bit sad; i'll have lost out on one fucking fantastic story!

So, I don't know. I have no right to tell anyone else how to treat anyone else, but can't we all get along? Can't we respect the excitement and enthusiasm Jacobs helps re-invigor in the community? Can't we respect the breadth of his imagination, maybe even admit that the story he sees the potential for is pretty goddamn awesome, even if it's not GRRM's?

In short - we're all nerds, to one extent or the other. I imagine we've all been bullied at one time or another, likely often for the crime of distinguishing ourselves by our intelligence. So... can't we disagree with respect, rather than react with hostility?

(and, yeah, that business over attributing credit to artists was certainly quite distasteful, though it seems he has payed some measure of penance for his mistakes there, no?)

Anyhow, that's just my thoughts, do with them whatever you like

M

[Lady Lia]

20 hours ago, Meglith said:

Before his videos, I'd never been exposed to the concept of a fantasy-world that's secretly all telekinesis and lost sci-fi technologies, with aliens taking the place of elves and giants and genetic engineering being the ancient "blood-magic", nearly forgotten.

Unrelated to the rest, you might enjoy Katherine Kerr's Snare.