Do you believe Preston Jacobs' explanation for dragon riding?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

22 hours ago, Meglith said:

Good morning all,

Sorry to resurrect a three-month-dormant thread, but I feel I want to share my thoughts, mostly because of the hostility i see in some posts towards Preston Jacobs' speculations. Now, don't get me wrong, I've definitely seen that many people on this forum don't respond with hostility but instead with polite disagreement, based on their honest critiques of his methods, and of course that is reasonable... But I think it's clear that others are dismissive and, frankly, rude wherever Mr Jacobs is mentioned.

I suppose I have no authority or right to dictate how others should respond to each other, but still, i wish i weren't seeing that type of disrespect within the GRRM fan-community.

For me, Preston Jacobs is a great source of entertainment and speculative musings as I wait for the next book. Certainly some of his conclusions are a bit extreme, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of his smaller theories turned out to be correct. I don't think we can deny his skill at identifying potential foreshadowing, his skill at collecting clues that bear the ring of familiarity from the previous foreshadowing in GRRM's works - the foreshadowing before Jaime losing his hand, before the reveal that Lysa poisoned Lord Arryn, and before the deaths of Ned, Robb, and Jon. I suppose there is ample evidence to be doubtful of his more extreme theories - especially as indeed, proving Mr Jacobs correct often requires the supposition that GRRM has intentionally misled his audience - but still, how is it harmful for him to speculate wildly until proven wrong?

For me, I was drawn in to the materials of fan-speculation through Mr Jacob's videos, and now I'm richer for them as I've been led to the essays at the Meerenese Blot, the writings by Cantuse, and by BryndenBFish. Without Mr Jacobs as my gateway, I wouldn't have learned what the rest of the fandom has to offer. And if/when/where Mr Jacobs' theories turn out to have been wildly inaccurate, I have to be honest... I'm going to be a little disappointed. As I watched his "Minds of Wolves and Robins" series, I started to think, "Holy crap, these ideas are way more interesting than anything else we've seen in the books up till now!"

Before his videos, I'd never been exposed to the concept of a fantasy-world that's secretly all telekinesis and lost sci-fi technologies, with aliens taking the place of elves and giants and genetic engineering being the ancient "blood-magic", nearly forgotten. And if the Martells aren't secretly one of the most bad-ass groups of scheming SOBs, playing the long-game, refusing to settle for second-place - but are instead just a poor little kingdom hoping to marry their way into power - i'll have lost out on a really, really intelligent group of villains to obsess over. And if he's wrong about Littlefinger playing at manipulating the Old Gods themselves, obsessing over a mysterious prophecy... then I'll be a little bored, because Littlefinger trying to steal godhood is way more badass than Littlefinger just being a money-savvy pedophile.

If Mr Jacobs is wrong about ASoIaF, (and yes, logically, the odds are good that in many places he is) I'll be a bit sad; i'll have lost out on one fucking fantastic story!

So, I don't know. I have no right to tell anyone else how to treat anyone else, but can't we all get along? Can't we respect the excitement and enthusiasm Jacobs helps re-invigor in the community? Can't we respect the breadth of his imagination, maybe even admit that the story he sees the potential for is pretty goddamn awesome, even if it's not GRRM's?

In short - we're all nerds, to one extent or the other. I imagine we've all been bullied at one time or another, likely often for the crime of distinguishing ourselves by our intelligence. So... can't we disagree with respect, rather than react with hostility?

(and, yeah, that business over attributing credit to artists was certainly quite distasteful, though it seems he has payed some measure of penance for his mistakes there, no?)

Anyhow, that's just my thoughts, do with them whatever you like

M

I like your thoughts Meglith. Well said. Although I will point out that a lot of people do deny his skills that you mentioned above. And I super agree that if some of his theories turn out to be completely wrong, like Doran Martell having a hidden agenda, I will be severely disappointed.

[The Hammer of Justice]

I just read all the thread and here are my conclusions:

When I first watched PJ's series on the genetics of dragonriding I was super excited (how cool would that be if asoiaf is actually, in fact, a sci-fi disguised as fantasy). But the more and more I went on to the series I simply could not take it seriously anymore, like many people have pointed he simply takes a loooooooot of assumptions as true just so his theory does not crumble.

In the end, I DO believe dragon riding/hatching is strongly connected to genetics (or want to believe), but not in the way he puts it. The reason I believe it is 1) I like genetics xD and 2) it sure explains a lot of things that happened in the first half of the Targaryen dynasty. However, I believe there is MORE to it than just genetics.

Eventually I realized that PJ is an entertainer, I don't think his goal is to solve the books, he is just trying to make a show to gain viewers (He's a Youtuber, isn't he?). Although I admit, he is pretty good at it, he possess great knowledge of the series and he explains his theories in a very convincing way, you just have to filter the good information in the middle of all the nonsense. I will have a better opinion about him as I watch more of his theories.

I'm not saying he is outright wrong, just that the possibility of him being right is very minuscule.

Edit: Also, I do believe that the Faith/maesters were trying to influence which Targs would marry/inherit to extinguish the "dragon gene". I believe Septon Barth figured it out, and that the Citadel kept a copy of Barth's work and that Baelor the Blessed (working with the Faith) burned the books so that ONLY the Citadel/Faith would have this knowledge and also locked his sister to prevent them from spreading the genes. 

Also, Aegon the Unworthy might have done a great service to the realm by spreading the dragon gene to all corners of the world right before the Others awakening (not that this necessarily will have any impact on the story, it is just a funny thought)

[Azzanadra]

Eh, even if y'all don't agree with the man Preston Jacobs has to be the most interesting thing to happen to the fandom in a long while- at least opposed to the same boring theories we hear time and time again his outlandish theories bring something new and fresh even if they may seem implausible. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 29/1/2017 at 7:27 AM, Azzanadra said:

Eh, even if y'all don't agree with the man Preston Jacobs has to be the most interesting thing to happen to the fandom in a long while- at least opposed to the same boring theories we hear time and time again his outlandish theories bring something new and fresh even if they may seem implausible. 

It depends what you mean by interesting and theories. What PJ has done is mostly wishful thinking turning to fan fiction. 

[divica]

I just finished watch the vídeos.

I think that while the vídeos are very good, if we have time to think they are full of holes.

The targaryens are valyrians that control dragons for a lot of years. So if the faith found out how the dragon hatching works shouldn t valyrians have found out hundreds of years earlier? So why would they pay more attention on the hatching girls?

And why would a dragon hatcher only hatch a dragon each time? why not hatch a dragon for each possible dragon rider at the time? It assumes that before the dance the targaryens didn t know how dragon hatching worked... And by the extension the valyrians! And they invented the ritual...

And how did such a basic and important knowledge for the targs to disapear?

Then we have the parts that simply don t make sense. jon and bran are confirmed skinchangers and arya has also skinchanged! However targs aren t skinchangers! Even by PJ the targs wanted to aquire the skinchanger gene. So how are these 3 skinchangers? And lastly, danny doesn t seem to be a skinchanger.

 

The whole thing seems forced!

[Curled Finger]

Gads I love YouTube.  I subscribe to maybe 10 YouTubers.  History of Westeros, Radio Westeros, Smokescreen, Order of the GreenHand, Secrets of the Citadel, Alt Shift X, Scriva, Civilization X and I still love Preston Jacobs.  (Ozzyman Reviews when the show is running--man that's funny)  I look forward to his new videos the way I look forward to Secrets of the Citadel's read through shorts.  Preston's sign off is "I'm probably wrong about half of this...".   He's very knowledgeable about the story and does a great job theory crafting.   But even he doesn't take it all seriously.  Do I think PJ put forth a plausible explanation for dragon hatching and riding?   Yep.   That comes from someone who's never hatched a dragon nor have I studied genetics.    It's like fun sci fi to me.  PJ is an entertainer, but he knows his stuff and he entertains me.  I'm not ashamed to enjoy this guy.  Order of the GreenHand is getting a lot of chatter these days.   I enjoy them too.   In fact I got er, inebriated very recently and put them on because they're fun too.  Their spirit is harder and meaner than most and that's hard to swallow, but you have to appreciate the effort they put into their product. That said I ended up with PJ after about 20 minutes.   Last thing I remember was failing a Radio Westeros quiz I could ace before.   

It all boils down to how the story speaks to each reader.  It confuses me to stir show stuff in with books.  Every topic we discuss ends up with 4 or 5 interpretations because it does speak to us very differently.   Look at a Cat conversation anywhere on the forum if you need proof.  If PJ thinks genetics play a part in dragon hatching/riding it's good enough for me.   Just don't expect me to take it seriously.   Yet. 

[divica]

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Gads I love YouTube.  I subscribe to maybe 10 YouTubers.  History of Westeros, Radio Westeros, Smokescreen, Order of the GreenHand, Secrets of the Citadel, Alt Shift X, Scriva, Civilization X and I still love Preston Jacobs.  (Ozzyman Reviews when the show is running--man that's funny)  I look forward to his new videos the way I look forward to Secrets of the Citadel's read through shorts.  Preston's sign off is "I'm probably wrong about half of this...".   He's very knowledgeable about the story and does a great job theory crafting.   But even he doesn't take it all seriously.  Do I think PJ put forth a plausible explanation for dragon hatching and riding?   Yep.   That comes from someone who's never hatched a dragon nor have I studied genetics.    It's like fun sci fi to me.  PJ is an entertainer, but he knows his stuff and he entertains me.  I'm not ashamed to enjoy this guy.  Order of the GreenHand is getting a lot of chatter these days.   I enjoy them too.   In fact I got er, inebriated very recently and put them on because they're fun too.  Their spirit is harder and meaner than most and that's hard to swallow, but you have to appreciate the effort they put into their product. That said I ended up with PJ after about 20 minutes.   Last thing I remember was failing a Radio Westeros quiz I could ace before.   

It all boils down to how the story speaks to each reader.  It confuses me to stir show stuff in with books.  Every topic we discuss ends up with 4 or 5 interpretations because it does speak to us very differently.   Look at a Cat conversation anywhere on the forum if you need proof.  If PJ thinks genetics play a part in dragon hatching/riding it's good enough for me.   Just don't expect me to take it seriously.   Yet. 

I don t completly agree.

Pj has very good vídeos like the one from the purple wedding or the battle of blood.

But when you do a series of vídeos you can t have big holes in your theory.

In this theory jon( for pj he isn t lyanna's son), bran and robb couldn t be skinchangers. Unless you think the tullys are skinchangers.

Then the the targs don t know how they hatch dragons? they are valyrians! They are the ones that invented the ritual. However the faith discovered the process within 100 years?

And Bloodraven somehow discovered about the dragon gene and found out that egg had it? how?

And if the targs knew how to hatch dragons why do they only 1 dragon each time or don t take better care of the dragon hatchers? They are the source of targ power!

[Curled Finger]

12 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t completly agree.

Pj has very good vídeos like the one from the purple wedding or the battle of blood.

But when you do a series of vídeos you can t have big holes in your theory.

In this theory jon( for pj he isn t lyanna's son), bran and robb couldn t be skinchangers. Unless you think the tullys are skinchangers.

Then the the targs don t know how they hatch dragons? they are valyrians! They are the ones that invented the ritual. However the faith discovered the process within 100 years?

And Bloodraven somehow discovered about the dragon gene and found out that egg had it? how?

And if the targs knew how to hatch dragons why do they only 1 dragon each time or don t take better care of the dragon hatchers? They are the source of targ power!

I don't know, divica, the Qohori can rework Valyrian Steel with their dark magic and the source of the Valyrian dragon magic is alleged to have originated in Asshai.  All this magic is hard to keep up with.   

As to PJ...when I accepted the hypothesis I was thinking more along the lines of Rhaenyra being a hatcher.   I enjoyed the argument he made.   X Y Z goes so far over my head I can't begin to really understand it.   My friend who does understand genetics assured me it simply doesn't work the way Jacobs puts forth.  However, the script Jacobs chose was well worded and I stayed with it.   It sort of feeds into the whole magic in the matrilineal line idea.   We can never actually know the truth of this theory.   If you find holes in it maybe it's not just entertainment and you're looking for a real thing?    I can't get 100% behind anything that is just theory.   I can get excited because it sounds good and matches in areas, but at this point there is no way to know.  As I said I ended drunk night with Radio Westeros because Preston is just too far out there to enjoy as a drunk person.  I have a lot of fun with him sober.  But it's just fun.   What can I say?  I like the guy.      

In truth I barely recall the points in the video you brought up.  But I will go back and rewatch it to see if I pick up on any thing different.   Chances are you are way more attentive than I am.   

[divica]

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't know, divica, the Qohori can rework Valyrian Steel with their dark magic and the source of the Valyrian dragon magic is alleged to have originated in Asshai.  All this magic is hard to keep up with.   

As to PJ...when I accepted the hypothesis I was thinking more along the lines of Rhaenyra being a hatcher.   I enjoyed the argument he made.   X Y Z goes so far over my head I can't begin to really understand it.   My friend who does understand genetics assured me it simply doesn't work the way Jacobs puts forth.  However, the script Jacobs chose was well worded and I stayed with it.   It sort of feeds into the whole magic in the matrilineal line idea.   We can never actually know the truth of this theory.   If you find holes in it maybe it's not just entertainment and you're looking for a real thing?    I can't get 100% behind anything that is just theory.   I can get excited because it sounds good and matches in areas, but at this point there is no way to know.  As I said I ended drunk night with Radio Westeros because Preston is just too far out there to enjoy as a drunk person.  I have a lot of fun with him sober.  But it's just fun.   What can I say?  I like the guy.      

In truth I barely recall the points in the video you brought up.  But I will go back and rewatch it to see if I pick up on any thing different.   Chances are you are way more attentive than I am.   

PJ is a very good talker. I agree completly. He can lead us through his logic and makes us think it makes sense.

However, if we stop to think about somethings he says we start to see holes in some of his theories. This dragon hatching theory is based on targs not knowing how dragons are hatched and that mothers and sisters accidentaly hatch a lot of dragons without knowing.

Why wouldn t the targs that came from valyria and were dragonlords there not know about hatching dragons? And if they knew then there are several things that don t make sense. Like, there can be as many hatched dragons as the targs want. They only need to ask a dragon hatcher to hatch a dragon. And why would these ladies be super protected? or even how would the targs lose such a basic knowledge within 2 or 3 generations? 

I understand that some of these probs could be answered with his septon/citadel/oldtown conspiracy (which I partially agree, if you see his vídeo and put the hightowers as a greedy familly that want the IT and out of the conspiracy I think it work even better). However I find it too weird that parents wouldn t make this common knowledge for their kids... And then bloodraven somehow finds out and doesn t say anything to his familly??? PJ has some personal vendeta against BR!!!!

And the problem with the matrilineal idea is: A skinchanger/dragon rider father can t have a son with this special abilities if the mother doesn t have the skinchanger/dragon rider abilities. Which means, as ned gives his normal Y chromossome to his sons then the X chromossome with skinchanging ability has to come from catelyn! Jojen is a greendreamer? then his ability comes from his mother and not howland!

[Euron Lannister]

its he best expanaition so far, and GRRM has always shown to be interested in biology, genetics and stuff like this, so why not.

the connection to the X chromossome is really interesting since many specialities are linked to it, and it would fit GRRMs feminist style and his semi-scientific-accurate style as well, since most spiecies have only female breeders

btw. i never got this PJ hate, even if you dislike his theories or dont agree, he has his opinion you have yours, there is no need for hate and until twow comes out there is no reason to call theories wrong.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

If his analyse allows Stannis to ride a dragon I support it.