How did the drowned God become a thrall to the Great Other?

[Venus414]

What caused the drowned God to become a thrall? Just the act of drowning itself connected dragons with Drowned God? Rhoynar worshipped the water? 

 

i get that the Storm God is enemy to the Drowned God (crow vs. Raven) 

 

i understand the first drowned men/gods were those with dragon blood? 

 

And I just got that grayscale came from breathing their mist and children develop an immunity of sorts? 

 

 

on grayscale: 

The only way not to breathe the fog is not to breathe. "Garin's Curse is only greyscale," said Tyrion. The curse was oft seen in children, especially in damp, cold climes. The afflicted flesh stiffened, calcified, and cracked, though the dwarf had read that greyscale's progress could be stayed by limes, mustard poultices, and 
scalding-hot baths (the maesters said) or by prayer, sacrifice, and fasting (the septons insisted). Then the disease passed, leaving its young victims disfigured but alive. Maesters and septons alike agreed that children marked by greyscale could never be touched by the rarer mortal form of the affliction, nor by its terrible swift cousin, the grey plague. "Damp is said to be the culprit," he said. "Foul humors in the air. Not curses.  

"The conquerors did not believe either, Hugor Hill," said Ysilla. "The men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and made mock as he called upon his Mother to destroy them. But in the night the waters rose and drowned them, and from that day to this they have not rested. They are down there still beneath the water, they who were once the lords of fire. Their cold breath rises from the murk to make these fogs, and their flesh has turned as stony as their hearts."

 

Also of possible importance, thralls aren't quite slaves, they have some choice. A tiny bit.

 

so how's the drowned God a thrall and any other light to shed on my random thoughts is more than welcome!  Thanks.

Spoiler

 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

@LmL should be here any minute to explain this much better than I could. 

But in the meantime, thanks for bringing my attention back to this info. It's been a while and the drowning and water and fire thing has me thinking. 

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Venus414 said:

What caused the drowned God to become a thrall?

When the drowned didn't stay drowned!

A 'dead/drowned man rising harder and stronger' -- i.e. defying death and coming back as an abomination 'undead' creature -- is being reanimated by the 'Others'.  It's difficult to answer your question, however, without being able to provide a good answer for precisely who these 'Others' are.

In this power dynamic, the way I understand it, the Others would be the necromancers (analogous to skinchangers or greenseers) and the drowned would be the ones who are manipulated or skinchanged (a reanimated corpse coming back as a wight is being skinchanged in a way) under their control.  On the other hand, as I've argued elsewhere musing on the nennymoans, symbolic 'drowning' is the price greenseers and other 'third-eye' practitioners pay for a measure of immortality, making the necromancers themselves the thralls of whomever or whatever is conferring that magical power.  

In the end, there will be only one question left:  Who created the magic in the first place?  Lots of parties are harnessing magic, but with whom did it originate?

1 hour ago, Venus414 said:

the Storm God is enemy to the Drowned God (crow vs. Raven) 

I'm not sure there is such a clear difference between the two.  Perhaps they represent two aspects of a duality; at the very least, they sometimes seem to work together not against each other.  How else do drownings at sea occur without a storm?  A number of characters manifest aspects of both, for example Euron who styles himself as the Storm God, yet is called 'Crow's Eye' (the recurring figure of a a drowned crow is more related to the Drowned God than the Storm God who is more associated with ravens) and drowns his enemies.  Similarly, Bran, more a raven than a crow, who is associated with the Storm God -- who is the god of air and wind, the latter being strongly associated with an 'old gods'' influence --  is also symbolically 'drowned,' first in the inky depths of his coma, then in the darkness of the Winterfell crypts, and currently in Bloodraven's cavern with its 'sunless sea.'  Entering the 'weirwood network' is a form of drowning.  In fact, there can be no harnessing of the power of the air -- which the rustling leaves represent -- without first drowning.  

1 hour ago, Venus414 said:

the first drowned men/gods were those with dragon blood?

I don't know.  As I mentioned above, it's not clear who was the first magician or who created the magic.  An underwater sun or fire brand is harvested from the depths by someone enterprising, the dark material thus obtained corrupting and immunising against corruption at once, just like greyscale.  I think we need to get @Pain killer Jane in here; she's good at topics on the paradoxical 'dark matters' like this one!

24 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@LmL should be here any minute to explain this much better than I could.

Indeed, him too! 

1 hour ago, Venus414 said:

thralls aren't quite slaves, they have some choice. A tiny bit.

It's possible that being enthralled contains an element of captivation in the sense of seduction, in addition to being held captive against ones will.  Mormont cautioned Jon that the things we love or seek will be our undoing, even killing us, every time (rough paraphrase).  Therefore, whatever one captures ends up capturing one in turn, an example of which is Theon as 'ward' or thrall and his complex dynamic with the Starks, or the graphic visual of Bloodraven pinioned by the tendrils of the same tree which allows him to 'fly.'

[Venus414]

That makes perfect sense- the being drowned and the necromancy part especially.  "Those who were once the lords of fire" were said to have been the first drowned gods? It's in a passage in my o.p.  Thanks so much! 

[Venus414]

Thank you for understanding my random thoughts! 

A little on Garin:. 

 

Prince Garin led two hundred and fifty thousand men to their deaths in an attempt to stop the Valyrians in the Second Spice War. He was named Garin the Great for giving the Valyrians pause.^[1]

According to legend, the men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and mocked him as he called upon Mother Rhoyne to destroy them. That very night, the waters rose and drowned the invaders of Chroyane.^{[citation needed]}

Some say his curse brought the Doom of Valyria.^{[citation needed]}

From that day, the spirits of the fallen conquerors have said to have remained beneath the waters, they who were once the lords of fire. It is believed that their cold breath is still said to rise from the murk to make the fogs that infest the ruined city in the Sorrows, and their flesh is said to have turned as stony as their hearts. It is also believed by some that Garin rose from his watery grave and became the Shrouded Lord.^[2]

In modernity there is a Braavosi play called the Wroth of the Dragonlordswhich features a speech made by Prince Garin on the eve of battle.^{[citation needed]}

[Venus414]

looks like the Others, the Drowned God, and the faceless Men all take issue with the Dragonlords of old. (Dani being a very anti slavery exception, of course) ..

[Pain killer Jane]

6 hours ago, Venus414 said:

What caused the drowned God to become a thrall? 

 

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

When the drowned didn't stay drowned!

A 'dead/drowned man rising harder and stronger' -- i.e. defying death and coming back as an abomination 'undead' creature -- is being reanimated by the 'Others'.  It's difficult to answer your question, however, without being able to provide a good answer for precisely who these 'Others' are.

Thank you for inviting to this convo.

Think of the Grey King relationship to the Drowned as having three sides to a coin; the two faces and the edge. In this scenario you have the Grey King, the Drowned God and the Leviathan. 

@LmL argued in his newest essay that the Leviathan is also the Drowned God and should be considered a drowned goddess. This would be Nissa Nissa. Her meteor children are dragons but remember Dany calling herself Daughter of Dragons and Mother of Dragons. She is both and separate.

We have the legend of Lightbringer in combination with the Grey King legend and the Drowned Lord. The lightbringer legend tells the story of the birth of dragons and the Grey King legend is the tale of the acquisition of power i.e. the thralldom of the living fire of Naga. AA/BSE/Grey King enslaved his own children. They are father and enslaver in a symbolic sense.i.e. Dany giving birth to dragons and then using Drogon to conqueror Astaphor. (as a philosophical question are the dragons monsters because they were born thusly or are they monsters because she used them to terrorize?)

The Drowned Lord part is the aspect of Dany, being both the Daughter of Dragons and Mother of Dragons. Garin rising up and becoming the Drowned Lord and spreading Greyscale is better understood when viewing Catlyn's transformation into Lady Stoneheart. A mother that was murdered (and literally pulled from a river) and is now resurrected into something sinister who's only purpose is exacting revenge. 

And remember that baptism/drowning is giving birth to another version of ones self.

The Drowned Lord and the mist created by the drowned Valyrians both noted as causing greyscale combined with Lady Stoneheart's story reveals that Greyscale is the antithesis to the creation of Lightbringer. And also note  that Greyscale emerging from submerged dragon lords is similar to Sickle Cell Anemia emerging from populations with immunity to Malaria.

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

6 hours ago, Venus414 said:

the first drowned men/gods were those with dragon blood?

I don't know.  As I mentioned above, it's not clear who was the first magician or who created the magic.  An underwater sun or fire brand is harvested from the depths by someone enterprising, the dark material thus obtained corrupting and immunising against corruption at once, just like greyscale.  I think we need to get @Pain killer Jane in here; she's good at topics on the paradoxical 'dark matters' like this one!

For me, everyone on Planetos has mana, that thing that is fuel for magic. Those that acquire massive amounts of mana can use magic to exert their will upon the world. 

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

In the end, there will be only one question left:  Who created the magic in the first place?  Lots of parties are harnessing magic, but with whom did it originate?

I don't think that will ever be answered. And for me its a mute point. The beginning is all well and good because we want someone to blame for the use and abuse of magic. We can blame AA/BSE for abuse of magic but at the same time AA is a lightbringer and he used magic in order to stop the long night. But we can't say that AA/BSE is the root of magic but we can say he is indicative of someone that is the embodiment of "Power corrupts and Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Greenseers, Grey King, AA, BSE, Horned Lords, Lightbringers, Kings, Lords are People of Power and thus they can be corrupted. 

So then this becomes a question of justice. (Justice is just revenge for the living)

we keep in mind this quote about justice from the Merchant of Venice

Quote

Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;

Magic is obviously woven tightly into the make up of Planetos. Septon Barth believed the problems with the weather were the result of magic. For me looking for justice isn't going to do any good and neither is getting rid of magic because remember that BSE/AA abused magic and caused a long night but also used magic to stop a long night. Think of how a vaccination has the virus you are guarding yourself from. Therefore magic has always been and there will always be people grasping for it. The question should be how will the people of Planetos move forward with the knowledge that magic is subjective to the whims of others?

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

In this power dynamic, the way I understand it, the Others would be the necromancers (analogous to skinchangers or greenseers) and the drowned would be the ones who are manipulated or skinchanged (a reanimated corpse coming back as a wight is being skinchanged in a way) under their control.  On the other hand, as I've argued elsewhere musing on the nennymoans, symbolic 'drowning' is the price greenseers and other 'third-eye' practitioners pay for a measure of immortality, making the necromancers themselves the thralls of whomever or whatever is conferring that magical power.

@ravenous reader you said this in the nennymoans thread

Quote

The fool is a boundary-pushing trickster figure, in line with @LmL's latest idea of 'naughty greenseers.' 

The fool that thinks they can safely grasp magic can be sinister (the thing in the night/others) or naive (Bran) but they are still fools. Clever tho they might be. Symbolical and physically drowning to acquiring a third-eye is very inline with the self poisoning/double edged sword theme in the books. And I agree with your premise. Edit: I should elaborate more. I take this to leading to the question of what kind of fire within us drives us to do the things we do as humans? What leads us to our self-poisoning in the pursuit?  

So in the end, they are all thralls though their chains maybe different.  Edit: I take thralls to be slaves regardless of the the distinction within the world book of the degree of their autonomy. Their 'freedoms' are delusions because they are allowed to have them by someone else. For me, this leads me to Valar Morghlis, Valar Doheris, 'All men must die' All men must serve'. Martin is pointing out that dying and serving are the only guarantees in life.  Its the form these things take place that is subjective.  

[The Fattest Leech]

@Venus414 I hate being the person that just says "read this" without giving you any answer, but I was at work earlier when I responded and I see that much has already been covered.

Sooo, the next best thing I can tell you is to read this, or listen to the podcast, because it gives amazing history to what you are asking.

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.com/2016/08/25/the-grey-king-and-the-sea-dragon/

And great job to those who have posted here already.

[Venus414]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Venus414 I hate being the person that just says "read this" without giving you any answer, but I was at work earlier when I responded and I see that much has already been covered.

Sooo, the next best thing I can tell you is to read this, or listen to the podcast, because it gives amazing history to what you are asking.

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.com/2016/08/25/the-grey-king-and-the-sea-dragon/

And great job to those who have posted here already.

Thank you sweetie darling, you're fabulous!  Will do.  I'm actually a huge PJ fan (not saying I agree with everything- but I've sure learned and confirmed a lot!  I will have a look.  

And "what do you mean it's degrading? She's got the whip!" Cheers! 

 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

36 minutes ago, Venus414 said:

Thank you sweetie darling, you're fabulous!  Will do.  I'm actually a huge PJ fan (not saying I agree with everything- but I've sure learned and confirmed a lot!  I will have a look.  

And "what do you mean it's degrading? She's got the whip!" Cheers! 

 

 

Yeaasssss!