U.S. Elections: The Narcissist and the Nineteenth Amendment

[Jace, Extat]

How dreadfully disappointing.

[Commodore]

Vox and Mother Jones don't know the first thing about Trump voters

This is a better read from someone who grew up in that environment.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

Quote

 

They're getting the shit kicked out of them. I know, I was there. Step outside of the city, and the suicide rate among young people fucking doubles. The recession pounded rural communities, but all the recovery went to the cities. The rate of new businesses opening in rural areas has utterly collapsed.

See, rural jobs used to be based around one big local business -- a factory, a coal mine, etc. When it dies, the town dies. Where I grew up, it was an oil refinery closing that did us in. I was raised in the hollowed-out shell of what the town had once been. The roof of our high school leaked when it rained. Cities can make up for the loss of manufacturing jobs with service jobs -- small towns cannot. That model doesn't work below a certain population density.

If you don't live in one of these small towns, you can't understand the hopelessness. The vast majority of possible careers involve moving to the city, and around every city is now a hundred-foot wall called "Cost of Living." Let's say you're a smart kid making $8 an hour at Walgreen's and aspire to greater things. Fine, get ready to move yourself and your new baby into a 700-square-foot apartment for $1,200 a month, and to then pay double what you're paying now for utilities, groceries, and babysitters. Unless, of course, you're planning to move to one of "those" neighborhoods (hope you like being set on fire!).

In a city, you can plausibly aspire to start a band, or become an actor, or get a medical degree. You can actually have dreams. In a small town, there may be no venues for performing arts aside from country music bars and churches. There may only be two doctors in town -- aspiring to that job means waiting for one of them to retire or die. You open the classifieds and all of the job listings will be for fast food or convenience stores. The "downtown" is just the corpses of mom and pop stores left shattered in Walmart's blast crater, the "suburbs" are trailer parks. There are parts of these towns that look post-apocalyptic.

I'm telling you, the hopelessness eats you alive.

And if you dare complain, some liberal elite will pull out their iPad and type up a rant about your racist white privilege. Already, someone has replied to this with a comment saying, "You should try living in a ghetto as a minority!" Exactly. To them, it seems like the plight of poor minorities is only used as a club to bat away white cries for help. Meanwhile, the rate of rural white suicides and overdoses skyrockets. Shit, at least politicians act like they care about the inner cities.

 

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

11 minutes ago, Commodore said:

Vox and Mother Jones don't know the first thing about Trump voters

This is a better read from someone who grew up in that environment.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

 

No one ever talks about it? This is the central plank of Trump's platform. While making ties and shirts in China and Taiwan, and hiring immigrant labor to work his properties. I get that they're pissed. I don't get how they think Trump is going to help them.   

[Zorral]

30 minutes ago, Commodore said:

Vox and Mother Jones don't know the first thing about Trump voters

This is a better read from someone who grew up in that environment.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

 

All of that is bs.  I've spent the last years running up thousands of miles through this country.  And what I see is that the fracking inner cities that the orange stalin invokes constantly are doing just fine.  And again, the people doing well with these inner cities / middle cities / historic disticts are the kids whose parents and grand parents and grand parents etc. were kinda runnning it all all along -- yanno? Think about it -- where you live, and your local performance arts center -- maybe a theater that reaches back into the late 19th century, turn of the century -- who is the promotion director?  who is he - or she -- related to?  When did s/he 's family show up in your small city?

Brew pubs, locavore restaurants, Fun Fridays, bands all over the place, Farmers Markets, artisnal etc. etc. etc. etc.  Those places are doing pretty good for white folks, in tiny, small, middle, large and really huge urban spaces.

What isn't good is there aren't enough jobs that provide a real living for the kind of life style that these white kids'  parents had.  Got to get some other skills. Got to move away -- which is financially difficult for all kinds  of reasons -- for other jobs.  Even harder, to get a different mind set.  

Not saying this isn't a hugely horrid thing economically.

What is shocking to me personally is how many of these cities through which I've been conducted were passionate about abolitionism and often major centers of the Underground Railroad in the the 1840 ad 1850s are now so segregated -- so segregated that white and black people actually inhabit the same public spaces such as a Golden Corral restaurant and never even look at each other -- despite that the workers are mostly evenly white and black. This country is insane.

P.S. Braveheart is 100 percent bullshit speaking historically.

 

[Ariadne23]

37 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

This is a great, super cynical look at Clinton with her many flaws - and how the upcoming presidency is tailor made for someone like Clinton. 

 

https://newrepublic.com/article/137057/hillarys-president

That guy is the best writer I have read in a long time, possibly just for "the peristalsis of his mouth-like opening relaxed into a flaccid smirk," alone, but I'm being shallow. I feel persuaded to a different view on several aspects of a Clinton presidency. I now have better talking points. I like the phrase "alt-reality." The only quibble I've got is that I think he's underestimating how many Americans are into alt-reality these days now that they feel enough strength in numbers to come out with the beliefs described in that fantastic Mother Jones piece.

[Jasta11]

50 minutes ago, Commodore said:

Vox and Mother Jones don't know the first thing about Trump voters

This is a better read from someone who grew up in that environment.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

 

It's very interesting to read, for sure.

Personally (and keeping in mind I would very probably vote Clinton was I american, and would never vote Trump), I understand why someone in their position would vote Trump, and lash out at the establishment that has failed them. Because let's be honest, Trump is a symptom, not a cause. He's very probably going to lose the election, but the problems he brought up, the causes he (claims to) champion won't go away with him. You're still going to have a ton of people angry at a system that, they feel, brought them down. And they sure don't care one tiny bit about what the one candidate that (they feel) can fix their situation said in a bus 11 years ago about some woman. These people saw much of their way of life collapse, and they want it back, any political correctness be damned to the ninth circle of hell.

All that being said, the tragedy is that I don't think Trump would actually do much for them anyway. First off, he's as much part of the elite as Clinton is, if not moreso. He was born into what might as well be America's nobility, with a million+ dollar spoon in his mouth. He lived in New York, built giant businesses, dates models, appears on popular TV shows, is friends with many people just as, if not more, rich as him (who probably own the companies making said TV shows), and is going to have his factories built somewhere where labor costs are cheap (which is not America), just like any similar businessman would.

Second, well, the damage is done. The factories are already in China, Mexico, Taiwan, or whatever other country had cheap enough labor costs. There's no magical way to bring them, and those jobs, back. Even the drastic tax cuts Trump proposes wouldn't do that much. What does it matter to a multinational company if they pay 20% less taxes, when they already pay low taxes in (insert country X), have labor costs a fraction of the minimum wage in the US, and probably dodge the hell outta many taxes thanks to their offshore money anyway.

The sad truth is that America isn't a manufacturing powerhouse, and can't be anymore in a world where hundreds of millions (if not a billion+) of people will gladly do the same job an American did, for a fraction of the costs and with not much less required competence at the end of the day. People may rail at globalization, but watch them complain about high gas prices and how food gets more expensive by the day and such right afterwards. Probably while typing on their MADE IN CHINA computer or ipad. 

The American Dream where you can finish High School, then get a job for life at the local coal mine or steel mill is pretty much dead. I feel all Trump is doing in dangling its corpse in front of his audience and claiming he can use magic to ressurect it. 

[DunderMifflin]

4 hours ago, Ariadne23 said:

 

At least it's a much better attempt than - Trump supporters say "dur dur" while driving their confederate flag emblazoned pick up trucks.

The cracked article that is, I can't get a hang of this quote function here.

[mormont]

2 hours ago, Commodore said:

Vox and Mother Jones don't know the first thing about Trump voters

Well... that'll be why they use some actual data gained from research? You know, as opposed to the anecdotal article you're presenting as more valid? Which is a nice bit of writing, don't get me wrong - except that it presents no hard evidence that the people it's discussing are actually the bulk of Trump voters.

Do you have some criticisms of the Vox research? The methodology, for example? Other than that you don't agree with what they found. Because right now, you're presenting a Cracked article as more valid than actual research, and I don't think even the author of the Cracked article would say you should do that.

[lokisnow]

The cracked article is hyperbolic but has some truth. The problem is that nafta was a vicious ice cream scoop that gouged deep into the heart of nonurban America to serve some tasty cannibalistic dessert for the 0.001% elites on the coasts.

but you know the economist morons say it all evens out. Yes, the rich now have billions and the rest of the country is poorer than they once were. But you know, it evens out mathematically so there is no economic material difference, right. Oy.

[mormont]

12 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

The cracked article is hyperbolic but has some truth.

This describes most Cracked articles. (The rest are just hyperbolic.) But it doesn't mean that the Vox article is wrong and that Trump's support actually comes exclusively or even mostly from the rural poor.

The thesis of the Vox article is that the accepted media narrative about Trump voters is mistaken. You don't disprove that by providing an example of that narrative.

[Castel]

10 hours ago, Castel said:

They tried that. And a bunch of people in the GWB administration came out, and bunch of talk people said stuff and...Clinton's numbers reverted to near even with Trump after a while. 

To come back to this, the polls right after the tape (granted before the mass accusations) show a lot of people sticking by Trump. His enthusiasm has dropped to like..low 60s (according to Fox anyway) but people were looking to vote for him still and 75% of the party wanted to still support him. 

The "cowardice" of the GOP politicians seems utterly rational. The GOP base decided they'd put up with Trump through thick and thin, and this was after he was on tape bragging about groping women. If anything the GOP politicians were actually ahead of their base for those few days.

So, if that didn't break his support, I can only imagine that the rank and file GOP base didn't really care that much  about former George Bush acolytes or fiscal conservatives denouncing him. As I said, it was a steady drip but whether it was conflated with Clinton's convention bump or whatever, it certainly didn't last. 

I'm not going to say that they don't care or can't be pushed off the Trump train...but certainly their resolve is born of something other than just "she called some of us deplorables"

[Castel]

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

This is a great, super cynical look at Clinton with her many flaws - and how the upcoming presidency is tailor made for someone like Clinton. 

 

https://newrepublic.com/article/137057/hillarys-president

For some reason, I was not surprised you liked this article after I finished the bankruptcy bill story 

[Lord of Rhinos]

1 hour ago, Jasta11 said:

Second, well, the damage is done. The factories are already in China, Mexico, Taiwan, or whatever other country had cheap enough labor costs. There's no magical way to bring them, and those jobs, back. Even the drastic tax cuts Trump proposes wouldn't do that much. What does it matter to a multinational company if they pay 20% less taxes, when they already pay low taxes in (insert country X), have labor costs a fraction of the minimum wage in the US, and probably dodge the hell outta many taxes thanks to their offshore money anyway.

The sad truth is that America isn't a manufacturing powerhouse, and can't be anymore in a world where hundreds of millions (if not a billion+) of people will gladly do the same job an American did, for a fraction of the costs and with not much less required competence at the end of the day. People may rail at globalization, but watch them complain about high gas prices and how food gets more expensive by the day and such right afterwards. Probably while typing on their MADE IN CHINA computer or ipad. 

The American Dream where you can finish High School, then get a job for life at the local coal mine or steel mill is pretty much dead. I feel all Trump is doing in dangling its corpse in front of his audience and claiming he can use magic to ressurect it. 

The US is the number one manufacturer in the world in terms of value.  The problem is that automation has made it unnecessary to hire more workers.  Employment in manufacturing jobs has dropped from a high of 25 million in 1979 to 19.5 million in 2015 even though the value of US manufacturing has more than doubled.  It is automation, not offshoring, which has done the most damage to US manufacturing.

[James Arryn]

4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

This is a great, super cynical look at Clinton with her many flaws - and how the upcoming presidency is tailor made for someone like Clinton. 

 

https://newrepublic.com/article/137057/hillarys-president

It was great, somewhat cynical, but the kind that makes me gnash my teeth re: A.L.M. (m.m.m.)*

 In a piece supposedly dealing head-on with her greatest weaknesses, with the real or mythic causes for people to have serious reservations, it does not once mention her hawkish foreign policy. Even in spite of f.p. being her most recent and significant political office, that issue is completely ignored. Hell, Nixon's foreign policy is mentioned, as is Trump's, but the recent Secretary of State's leanings towards intervention don't warrant a single sentence in a 34 paragraph long article about her strengths and weaknesses.

It's almost enough to make you think that that stuff doesn't really matter until/unless it costs Americans. 

*American Lives Matter (much much more)

[lokisnow]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

This describes most Cracked articles. (The rest are just hyperbolic.) But it doesn't mean that the Vox article is wrong and that Trump's support actually comes exclusively or even mostly from the rural poor.

The thesis of the Vox article is that the accepted media narrative about Trump voters is mistaken. You don't disprove that by providing an example of that narrative.

Quite true, I wasn't really disputing the vox article merely chiming in about small town America on the downturn. 

To play devils advocate to myself, btw, how much of the decline of small town America is because of women entering the workforce? It's easy to maintain the economics of lots of specialty stores on main street if every single household has a person with time to fill in the week running errands to every butcher baker and candlestick maker in town. Whereas did Walmart proliferate in the 80s because changes in the domestic composition of households created massive aggregate demand for efficient retail that could eliminate the extravagant time burdens (and inconvenience) of maintaining a small town America life?  

Or maybe it's just because of the Eisenhower interstates or the Roosevelt security or the Johnson care or the Hoover sucking clintons nafta that killed small towns life 

or maybe it was the white fascism?

nah it was probably women's fault for going to work.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

12 hours ago, Zorral said:

So you are saying that Civil Rights, Voting Rights, affirmative action, opening up of immigration, sexual harrassment laws, integration of schools, getting religion out of the (publicly funded) schools and many other federal government rulings should not have happened.  Because this is what the Orange Stalin's supporters constantly complain -- that politics and government are disconnected from what they want and need and believe. These all happened in the last 100 years.  The only thing that will satisfy them is going back to 1900.

<snip

No. I didn't say anything remotely close to that. I was referring to the Democrat/Republican lock on the Electoral College.  Since 1876, there have only been a handful of times any non-Republican non-Democrat got any votes in the electoral college, and even then the other candidate only got single digit numbers. The 100+ years was for the partisan politics. 

The disconnect was not about Trump supporters. It was about the millions of people who feel their votes don't matter, and thus choose not to participate when their participation could make all the difference come election day.

 

[Werthead]

Quote

The US is the number one manufacturer in the world in terms of value.  The problem is that automation has made it unnecessary to hire more workers.  Employment in manufacturing jobs has dropped from a high of 25 million in 1979 to 19.5 million in 2015 even though the value of US manufacturing has more than doubled.  It is automation, not offshoring, which has done the most damage to US manufacturing.

Something that will be interesting to watch happen is when a lot of remaining low-skill jobs - truck and cab driving - go out the window because of self-driving cars. We're probably less than 20 years from them becoming commonplace, and that's going to cost an absolutely massive amount of jobs.

The real problem which no government wants to get to grips with is how automation of the scale we are seeing is spelling the end of capitalism as we know it, and that a new plan is needed to move the developed world (and eventually everyone) into a postcapitalist existence.

[butterbumps!]

There are all sorts of issues with that Cracked article (beyond its anecdotal nature that shouldn't be universalized, I mean).

For one, it takes a tone that renders these people agency-less victims of their circumstances.   This piece is asking jerk- liberals to feel sorry for these people for losing their way of life, and feeling like they have no prospects for the future (which, yes, I find worthy of sympathy).  But what the article elides over is the fact that these people have felt entitled to have the world change around them, rather than adapt to the world, for the last 50-60 years.   They are angry because the same education level, field of work and jobs that generations before them have held are going away, and/ or not getting them as far materially (mostly to automation as I understand it).   The way the writer presents this is as though they have had no agency or freedom to respond to the changing world except to become abject, angry victims, which is simply not true.  And permeating throughout is the unstated notion that they should be entitled to the same compensation for the same work as generations past, which is a hugely problematic attitude to take.  

Secondly, playing off fear of the "dangerous inner city" as something other than "that's where the uncivilized minorities live" seems utterly disingenuous to me.   I grant that there was a long period of time where the media played a huge role in over-reporting urban crime apparently perpetrated by minorities that undoubtedly served to shape that perception.   But let's not pretend fear of the cities doesn't involve fear of minorities.  And for the love of god, not mistreating a few PoC in person around one's small town doesn't preclude these townspeople from harboring racism.

The turn at the end is also hugely infuriating-- "explaining" how Trump is a logical choice for these totally not -ist, poor agency-less victims of circumstances totally beyond their control because......Walter White.   Because Trump is like your favorite fictional character "Who only get shit done because they don't care about the rules?"

So they think Trump is actually going to "get shit done" for them?  Then I guess the writer thinks these Trumpkins are abysmally stupid on top of it all?   I actually don't think a lot of these Trumpkins are genuinely ignorant of the incompetent bag of hate Trump is.   They aren't looking for him to make things better for anyone, despite what clumsy mental gymnastics they perform when asked for the cameras.    I'm pretty sure what's going on here with a lot of them is simple vengeance.  Hardly worthy of sympathy, in my view.

[Ariadne23]

The Cracked article (which I compared to J.D. Vance's book Hillbilly Elegy when it was posted already in the last thread) isn't inconsistent with the Mother Jones and Vox pieces, is it? It just maybe gets at the *real* reasons these people feel lost and hopless, and the racism, xenophobia, etc. is the freudian transference response being fanned by the Trump campaign in the absence of any other leadership being offered to these people.

I was a Bernie supporter in the primaries because I thought his platform would bring a lot of those same voters into the Democratic party, but for solid reasons, not by appealing to the dark underbelly of human psychology.

[butterbumps!]

20 minutes ago, Ariadne23 said:

The Cracked article (which I compared to J.D. Vance's book Hillbilly Elegy when it was posted already in the last thread) isn't inconsistent with the Mother Jones and Vox pieces, is it? It just maybe gets at the *real* reasons these people feel lost and hopless, and the racism, xenophobia, etc. is the freudian transference response being fanned by the Trump campaign in the absence of any other leadership being offered to these people.

I was a Bernie supporter in the primaries because I thought his platform would bring a lot of those same voters into the Democratic party, but for solid reasons, not by appealing to the dark underbelly of human psychology.

I think it's talking about a demographic similar to what was profiled in the Mother Jones piece (though the main subject of the MJ article is of the fairly comfortable economic class explored in Vox).  

I just think that Cracked piece completely glosses over some incredibly critical issues to portray these people as almost exclusively unracist, agency-less victims of a hard world, and how we should sympathize with their support for that orange shit stain (that turn at the end just kills me).   I mean, that piece even excuses/ justifies their steadfast beliefs in utterly misinformed portrayals of reality and other people!  

In a nutshell, I think the article does a complete disservice to all of the issues going on.   We can sympathize with people who feel lost and hopeless.   But the article is doing no one any favors by eliding over the desire to completely stagnate (expect the world to adapt to you) and become insular (willfully consume misinformation that only reinforces your world view).   

ETA:  to clarify, I don't think we should write these people off.  They are part of the country.  But for an article that purports to talk about the "real" issues, that Cracked piece is not getting us any closer to tackling those issues because it avoids and excuses some pretty major underlying ones.