There is more of the North in you than in your brothers: R+L ≠ J

[Kurus]

@Rhaenys:

1) I wasn't even thinking of the Gilly baby thing. Most of my other recent thinking has been in the Bloodstone Emperor and World of Ice and Fire stuff. I liked the idea that all of Jon's dreams are BSE/proto-valyrian dreams, which would explain why he has Azor Ahai dreams (including the flaming sword) but no serious Targaryen contender dreams. I feel this creepily fits the nightmare he has after doing the baby switch: about swapping baby heads and giving them back to the mother. I believe this to be a memory of the type of evil, necromantic study the BSE did and people like Qyburn are bringing back. It also matches the idea that Jon's story is somehow more deeply linked with baby switching. Thanks for that.

2) I actually kind of hope we don't get a finish. Think of all the fun we're having here.

3) About narrative inversion: The stuff Preston Jacobs has brought up has convinced me thoroughly that narrative is the goal. I think he's baaaasically doing Armagedon Rag again with A Song of Ice and Fire, and that the title is even a reference to the same apocalyptic thinking.

@ Marada and Larger: My point is that we can't rely too much on the HBO provided family tree.

@ Jamie: me three.

 

[RhaenysBee]

8 hours ago, Kurus said:

@Rhaenys:

1) I wasn't even thinking of the Gilly baby thing. Most of my other recent thinking has been in the Bloodstone Emperor and World of Ice and Fire stuff. I liked the idea that all of Jon's dreams are BSE/proto-valyrian dreams, which would explain why he has Azor Ahai dreams (including the flaming sword) but no serious Targaryen contender dreams. I feel this creepily fits the nightmare he has after doing the baby switch: about swapping baby heads and giving them back to the mother. I believe this to be a memory of the type of evil, necromantic study the BSE did and people like Qyburn are bringing back. It also matches the idea that Jon's story is somehow more deeply linked with baby switching. Thanks for that.

2) I actually kind of hope we don't get a finish. Think of all the fun we're having here.

3) About narrative inversion: The stuff Preston Jacobs has brought up has convinced me thoroughly that narrative is the goal. I think he's baaaasically doing Armagedon Rag again with A Song of Ice and Fire, and that the title is even a reference to  [accidentally deleted] 

While I realize that dreams are a primary tool of foreshadowing and are closely linked to the characters' identities, they are still way to abstract and vague for straightforward deduction like Jon doesn't have dragon dream -> Jon is not a Targaryen and Tyrion has dragon dreams -> Tyrion is a Targaryen. 

I wouldn't base Jon's parentage on the lack of Targaryen-related dreams and a random statement about his having more of the North in him than his brothers. Especially that this may be read as yet another reference to Lyanna who was said to be as wild like the north she was born in (or something along those lines). Arya, who is often compared to Lyanna also has "more of the north in her than her brothers" having inherited both the northern coloring and wild nature (Bran, Robb and Rickon having Tully hair). The similarities between Jon and Arya further link him to Lyanna as opposed to Brandon. (I could go on and on about why Brandon isn't Jon's father, but let's skip that) 

oh man, you can't be serious. Speculating about shit for decades and then not getting an answer? That sounds almost as bad as college maths, 90 minutes wasted on one problem and then the prof won't say what's the solution because "that's not the point"... We must have very different ideas about fun. 

I am a die-hard fan of Preston's show reviews, but his theories are soooooooooo far-fetched. Not a chance that grrm actually planned out those vast theories and diffused half-word hints for thousands and thousands of pages. I'm not buying that. 

[St Daga]

On 10/13/2016 at 2:40 PM, Kurus said:

This past season of Game of Thrones seemed to confirm what could be considered the ur-theory of A Song of Ice and Fire, that Jon Snow is not in fact Ned Stark’s bastard, but the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. We even got a nice family tree released from HBO confirming as much.

And what did we see in the show anyway? We barely heard Ned and  Lyanna’s exchange. The staging makes it pretty clear that Lyanna is Jon’s mother, something that I do support (and won’t go into too much detail about), but there is no confirmation here that Rhaegar is indeed the father.

When I read ASoIaF now, I engage a rule which I all GRRM-surplussage. Surplussage is a canon of legislative construction used by courts and lawyers that assumes every part of a law, down to the last clause and word, was meant to serve some purpose. Everything must be given some meaning. While (ironically) not the most accurate assumption to be made about laws, this way of thinking applies to George’s writing remarkably well. If it’s in there, George meant for it to be in there. That doesn’t necessarily mean that we know how to interpret it correctly, but if anything sticks out to us while reading, EVER, we should probably mark it down.

So if the other boys are half north, I guess Jon would likely be full north, and if Jon looks so characteristically Stark, AND we believe that Lyanna is the mother, we might have to open the door to talk of incest.

I like the idea of an incest scandal at the heart of the Stark family. One of the reasons we judge the Lannisters in the beginning of the series is because of Jaime and Cersei’s incestuous relationship. As the story unfolds, we come to see that the Lannisters are more complicated than typical conniving villains. Jaime even approaches his relationship with Cersei with a chivalric code of monogamy that he has maintained throughout his life. It would be great if we were to discover that the Starks, whose dark side has been gradually revealed over five books, have done the same things the Lannisters have. It might even explain why Ned was able to figure out the truth about Cersei’s children, and why he was so willing to let them go.

 

But do we have evidence that any of the Stark boys were interested in their sister? Why yes we do, from the tourney at Harrenhal:

“The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head.”

This already intriguing line is made more so by its similarity to Oberyn Martell’s continued sabotage of his own sister’s marriage offers, perhaps due to some Dornish master plan, and/or perhaps because of his own romantic interest.

But we have more. During the great feast at Winterfell in book 1, we have a moment where Jon essentially says to Benjen “you’re not my dad.” Benjen’s response is something like “would that I was.” (Sorry for not quoting exactly, it’s outside the google books preview and I lost my kindle charger.) In the moment, this line plays like Benjen is saying “I like you a lot, Jon Snow, and would be proud to be your father.” But it could also mean “I know who your mother was and wanted to be with her.”

 

Two pieces of Brandon Stark’s behavior with respect to Lyanna were very strange.

At the tourney at Harrenhal, from the World of Ice and Fire:

“Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her [Lyanna]? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winter fell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor….”

 

And what did Brandon do when Rhaegar finally took Lyanna? He rode directly to the Red Keep to demand a duel with Rhaegar. He didn’t demand her immediate release. He didn’t go to his father. He demanded a duel.

We know from Lady Dustin’s account of her relationship with Brandon Stark that he was likely already sexually active by the time they got together, and we know from Petyr Baelish’s account of his duel with Brandon that he seemed to have little interest in Catelyn Stark at that time. They were dueling, by the way, for Catelyn’s honor. Dueling is apparently what they do in this world to settle love disputes.

Despite being the thing that got me into ASoIaF fan theorization, R+L=J never felt right to me. Where’s the one freaky purple eye? Where are the dragon dreams? Jon only has wall/Great Empire of the Dawn dreams and dreams about the Crypts of Winterfell, where Starks are buried. There is simply too much of the North in him for him to be a lost scion of a people whose origin lies in the Lands of Long Summer.

 

Great post! Until only recently did I allow myself to think about a possible Starkcest in the mix. But really, why not? GRRM is not afraid of it, as seen both by the Targeryens and Lannister Incest Twins. He teases us with close calls with Theon hitting on his sister, and Gendry possibly banging Bella of the Stoney Sept who is probably another of Robert's bastards, as well as the Oberyn "really" seeming to love his sister and tried to mess up her marriage proposals like Cersei did to Jaime. It shows up a lot in the series.

First, HBO cannot be believed or trusted. After all they swore up and down that Jon was dead after season 5 and never coming back. They are liars! That weird circle graph that seems to confirm Jon Snow's father is Rhaegar is one of the things that makes me suspicious that the wildly accepted fan theory is a load of crappola!

Jon is often described as being a Stark, people recognize him as Ned's son even if they don't know him (Craster, who probably does not know Ned or knew Brandon but does probably know Benjen). Long face, grey eyes, melancholy (which people attribute to Rhaegar but could just as easily be the Starks), and as you point out, Tyrion told him "you have more of the north in you than your brothers". Something that pleases Jon very much is to be more of the North, to be more like Ned than his brothers.

Also, there are several mirror's to the Starks and Lannisters in the series, and I wonder if this could be another. I guess we will find out if tWoW ever get's published.

There are things about Benjen that trigger Jon to me, like the fact that Craster recognizes Jon as Ned's bastard, but when has he ever seen Ned. Benjen, I am sure he knows. In that same chapter you mention when Jon and Benjen talk at the feast at Winterfell, Benjen does say to Jon about men of the Nights Watch "none of us will ever father sons", which I really think rules him out, but he also claims Jon should father a couple bastards before coming to the wall, so Benjen is a maybe.

Brandon, as you mention, is very upset about Lyanna's "crowning" at Harrenhal and her "kidnapping", supposedly by Rhaegar. He does act like a jeaous man, and we don't know much more about him to rule him out. We know from Brabrey Dustin that both he and Lyanna loved to "ride" like centaurs, so Brandon is also a maybe.

You mentioned Benjen and Brandon, but not Eddard. Ned has a lot, I mean a lot of guilt when he thinks about Lyanna and Jon. He was also very upset at Harrenhal, although he reacted more quietly than Brandon. The TWOIAF reports Ned was "calmer but no more pleased" about Rhaegar's move. He himself recalls reaching for that crown on Lyanna's lap (although this is in a dream, so it might not be literal), so he must have taken it away from her, as in telling Rhaegar, "nope, that lap is mine, Mr. Dragonprince!" Ned also figured out the Jaime/Cersei incest twist, and did not seem very upset about it. He was actually pretty tender with Cersei, possibly because he understood how she felt. This is wild conjecture on my part. 

I will say I have been on the R+L=J train at times, because it is very obvious in the text. But that also makes me suspicious. I have no doubt that GRRM is smarter than all of us, and I don't know that he would make it too easy to figure out. And R+L=J is easy! At least it seemed obvious to me after my first read of aGoT six years ago. But I have doubts, and I think that everybody should. There is a lot in the text that hints at Ashara, or Wylla, or the Fishermans Daughter (aDwD) as being Jon's mother, and only a few things in the text that don't hint about Ned being Jon's father.

On 10/13/2016 at 3:27 PM, Lady of Whisperers said:

Jon's dreams about the crypts: In these dreams the dead starks tell him repeatedly that he doesn't belong to Winterfell. Why? Maybe because they know that he has dragon blood.

Timeline issues: I'm not an expert on the timeline, so if I'm wrong than someone should correct me, but Robert''s Rebellion lasted about a year. Brandon was killed before the rebellion started. Lyanna died (presumably due to the complications of the birth) at the end of the rebellion, so more or less a year after Brandon was killed. A pregnancy lasts 9 months meaning that Brandon couldn't have impregnated Lyanna. 

Regarding surplussage: Well you base your argument mainly on this one line from Tyrion in AGOT. This link shows you all lines hinting R+L=J in all 5 books https://www.dropbox.com/s/q4bzzo2807r2diz/RLJ Quotes (Version 4).pdf?dl=0 .Why are all these lines there if they are not important? 

I used to think that Jon's dreams were prophetic "dragon" dreams, but I am no longer sure about that. His dreams are of the crypts of Winterfell, and he is not afraid of the Kings of Winter, who would surely disapprove of a dragon in their midst, but he is afraid of something in the crypts, To argue with myself, I realize those Kings of Winter do tell Jon that "this is not his place" but I think that could be misinterpreted by many readers, including myself. 

I think the timeline is pretty darn sketchy, and I think GRRM, the master of screwing with us, did that on purpose. Honestly, who knows when Jon was born? I think the whole timeline of Roberts Rebellion and the period leading up to it, as well as peoples whereabouts is very loose. Intended to be that way, by GRRM, and so it is hard to rule much out as a possibility. Who know's when Jon was really born, any way? In the ToJ or not, after the Rebellion ended, or before, either before or after Robb was born, maybe, or eight or nine months before Dany who was born eight or nine moons after the sack of Kings Landing, unless she was born some other time and place, because she is some other person than who she thinks she is. Okay, what ever date that could be! The timeline around Jon's birth is real vague, to say the least.

GRRM is tricky, devious, and smarter than all of us kind of guy. And I think he could have deliberately misled a whole bunch of people into following one theory, so they completely missed looking at other possibilities. I let myself be happily led down this path for a long time, but if you look at any parentage theory, you can find stuff in the text to support it, which is why I think GRRM is so damn brilliant! I am not saying J+L=J is out and every other combination of alphabet soup out there is the truth, but I think to be so positive of an outcome is a mistake.

On 10/13/2016 at 6:11 PM, Kurus said:

And what was up with Brandon being more pissed at the Tourney at Harenhal than Robert (though Robert was hungover)?

Sorry for the staccato nature of the responses. I type them one handed while eating fries and keeping my greasy fry-hand away from the keyboard.

Hahaha! Totally made me LOL!

On 10/14/2016 at 0:32 AM, BoltonsBastard said:

I don't mean to be offensive by any means but it's very obvious thru the book that Rhaegar is the father.  The show only confirms it.  The timeline obviously doesn't support your theory bc Lyanna was gone for 1 year before she had Jon. Jon was born 12 months or so after Brandon Stark died...

 

It sort of blows my mind that people even try to refute it. Their number 1 reason for it is they "dont like R + L = J", which is fine,  but that doesn't mean it isn't true.  I haven't seen ONE theory that refutes R + L = J  which matches up with the timeline. Brandon died 3 months before Jon was concieved. He's not the father.  Rhaegar is.  It's all over book 1. It's in your face.  I didn't know there was a rule that all Targaryens must have dragon dreams

It is not offensive to have an idea or theory that you believe in, but it is not obvious by any means. I know people who did not pick it up in reading until they theory was presented to them, and then they seen it. I actually think that happens a lot, especially with all these boards and threads on the internet. The show already proved they are liars at least once (see my above "HBO are liar's" comment) and the timeline is crappola (see my previous statement on the trickery of GRRM). Nobody should be positive of anything, expect GRRM but maybe not even him. He does say the story writes itself!

The fact that this outcome of RLJ seems so obvious or there is no point to try to discuss other idea's should be worrisome. It doesn't hurt to question other idea's. I am not saying this idea is the truth (because it is honestly tough to swallow because we don't want the Starks to be like the Lannisters or Targaryens),  I am saying there are so many possibilities that until GRRM confirms it in text, nothing is 100%.

On 10/14/2016 at 7:37 AM, Kurus said:

Well, I'm sorry bro, but "it's in your face" isn't any more logical or credible a statement than "I don't like it." And I did make points supported by evidence that you did not choose to respond to. As far as the timeline is concerned, I think I effectively discussed it by casting doubt on the "one baby" scenario. George hints pretty strongly that there was more than one baby involved.

R+L=J has always had to explain away a lot of stuff, from Jon not having a single identifying Valyrian feature to his completely terrible and lasting reaction to getting burned. (I'm not saying Targs are fireproof, but in the final chapters of ADwD Dany has some weird milky flame-healing substance come out of her hands).

Jon being half Targaryen and Half Stark never made sense to me. It fits too neatly into a "HE IS THE PRINCE WHO WAS PROMISED AND HIS IS THE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE" harry potter/chosen one ending. I known GRRM ain't about that, and if Jon and Dany are supposed to be parallel or complementary characters, why make one all fire and one part fire part ice? Why push Jon to the center of the story like that?

It is a pretty picture, all wrapped up with pretty paper and a pretty bow. I used to think that Jon was the Song of Ice and Fire and Dany was the red herring of the story. Hell, it could actually be the opposite. I just am not positive of anything anymore, and I like it that way. The unknown and the suspense make it fun. Maybe I am allowing myself to be open to other options just so there is a chance of surprise.

On 10/20/2016 at 8:56 AM, Marada78 said:

The point is, there is no room for speculation on the show, it's all already pretty much set and near conclusion. But the books will play it differently especially because they will go much more on detail and I hope they will also explain in detail the involvement of Ashara. Ashara is a piece of the puzzle, whatever theory doesn't find a place for her story will never tell us 100% of the truth.

Both D&D and GRRM have reported that the ending will be the same, that they are just taking two different (more different every season) paths to get to the end. Ashara is interesting, because Dany has foreshadowing in her book story that fits Ashara, the Dayne's (her name is a damn anagram of Ser Dayne), Daenerys sounds like Dayne Heiress, and stars, lots of stars for Dany, and Starfell for the Daynes. But the show really has blown the Dayne's off, until we got Ser Arthur and Dawn this last season, and that was based on Ned's fever dream, which GRRM has said, should be doubted because it is a fever dream. The fact is, the novels seem to indicate the importance of the Daynes but not the series, and if we are supposed to have the same ending, then either the show or the books are misleading. I tend to think the show is misleading us, not GRRM's text. So they show could be misleading us about many things.

On 10/20/2016 at 9:06 PM, Kurus said:

 I actually kind of hope we don't get a finish. Think of all the fun we're having here.

I could not handle not having an ending from GRRM. The show does not bother me so much, but there needs to be some closure in the books. I have no doubt that even with a conclusive ending, people with argue for years about this story. Which makes it so much fun!

[A Ghost of Someone]

Brandon and Lyanna did not have an incest thing. There is nothing to suggest it. Brandon was pissed as Rheagar was the married Prince of the realm and him crowning Lyanna, a high born lady of equal stature as Elia of Dorne, pre wed to Rheagar was somewhat of an offer of being his something less than honorable as he could not marry a second wife. So, yeah, from a pridefull man/leader like Brandon who was somewhat a hot head, yeah, he was offended. Rightfully so. In other words, what could a married Prince offer Lyanna? It is not like she could be his wife and Queen as polygamy, even for the Royal Family had been abolished over 200 years ago and was never practiced outside the Targaryens anyway before that.

In short is was seen as an insulting solicitation.

[hallam]

On 10/20/2016 at 10:56 AM, Marada78 said:

The point is, there is no room for speculation on the show, it's all already pretty much set and near conclusion. But the books will play it differently especially because they will go much more on detail and I hope they will also explain in detail the involvement of Ashara. Ashara is a piece of the puzzle, whatever theory doesn't find a place for her story will never tell us 100% of the truth.

Umm no. I do not believe R+L=J and that is exactly how I would have shot the scene.

Everyone on the boards is so much looking for confirmation of their theory that they miss the contrary evidence. Yes, the baby is Jon, that is sure. But did Lyanna really give birth and the assistants clean up the baby in the time between Ned hearing her scream and him running up a flight of stairs? I think not.

Lyanna is covered in blood but Jon is not. how did she become covered in blood? And why is Ser Arthur Dane dual wielding a pair of swords while Dawn is in the tower?

Like the original poster says, there is a point to every part of the story and the problem with R+L=J is that it is really obvious and only explains one part of the story. It is so obvious that it can't possibly be the answer. 

Consider the statement, There is more of the North in you than your brothers. It is obviously a clue but Lyanna is just as Northern as Ned and a Targarean is even less northern than a Tully. Somehow Jon has to get a double dose of the north. And no, Ned + Lyanna would be utterly ridiculous. 

The theory that I favor is that Jon is not northern at all and he merely looks northern because of some form of glamor spell that Lyanna gives her life for, killing herself with Dawn. Hence 'I don't want to die', thats a bit weak for Lyanna if all she has done is give birth, how would she know for sure she would die? 

You see the other problem GRRM has is how to bring Lightbringer into the story and re-energize. Because unless Jon gets on really well with Danny, so much so that she is willing to let him marry then slaughter her in the first weeks of their meeting, I don't see how Lightbringer can be switched on. It takes blood magic to do that. But that isn't a problem if Lyanna has done it already.

There is obviously something very important buried in the crypts of Winterfell even if it turns out to be a note saying Lyanna and Dawn are elsewhere.

The only parentage that gives Jon the legitimate, superior claim to the throne is R+E =J. Which means that there have to be really strong reasons to reject it. And third hand statements of a character called Jon Con are pretty obviously a false trail. 

[Nowy Tends]

On 01/25/2017 at 4:24 AM, hallam said:

 And why is Ser Arthur Dane dual wielding a pair of swords while Dawn is in the tower?

Dawn is in the tower because Ned took it from Arthur, used it to kill him, and brought it (her?) there… Dawn is clearly shown as one the two swords wielded by Ser Arthur…