Was Longclaw originally a Valyrian steel blade other than House Mormont’s ancestral sword?

[Free folk Daemon]

Was Longclaw originally a Valyrian steel blade other than House Mormont’s ancestral sword?

 

I know Longclaw is a bastard sword (hand-and-a-half sword, which the sword Blackfyre is meant to be also) and Dark Sister supposed to be a longsword (one-handed sword), but something about the books makes me think it could have somehow have originally been Dark Sister, at least partly.

Bear (XD) with me here:

My theory, based much on my imagination, is that Bloodraven took Dark Sister with him when he was sent to the Wall. After disappearing on a ranging when he was Lord Commander, Bloodraven became the three-eyed crow and lived in a cave beyond the Wall.

The sword was recovered by Night’s Watch rangers on a mission to find Bloodraven. They took it to the Lord Commander at the time the rangers found the sword, who kept it at Castle Black.

Bloodraven looked through time via weirnet, and, knowing Jon Snow was Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark’s son and was going to join the Night’s Watch, he then instructed Jeor Mormont to give Jon Dark Sister.

Bloodraven felt that as he wasn’t getting any younger and had seen Jon Snow had a destiny to lead people in defence against the attacks by the Others during the new Long Night, Jon would have greater use of the sword, being Valyrian steel and thus effective against the Others.

I might be reading too much into it. It seems appropriate, a Targaryen blade refashioned as a Stark one. Jon was raised a Stark, and so the blade linking back to his Targaryen heritage yet outwardly displaying a white direwolf head with garnet eyes, resembling Ghost, and reflecting his Stark heritage, would encapsulate his dual ancestry. Plus, I imagine dragons to have long claws as well as direwolves.

I think Bloodraven asked Mormont via his raven or some other method (weirwood tree?) to have it fashioned so that it was unrecognisable as Dark Sister, and to wait for an appropriate pretext to gift Jon the sword.

Dark Sister was the one damaged by the fire during the wight attack (its pommel melted and the crossguard and grip burned) and not the real Longclaw.

Jeor Mormont kept Longclaw hidden, his House’s ancestral Valyrian steel blade, after Jon saved his life from the wight attack, and presented Dark Sister to Jon in its place as both a thank you for saving him from the wight attack and in order to give him Dark Sister without suspicion from other people and Jon himself.

What doesn’t add up is the difference in size between the Longclaw and Dark Sister swords (though no one in the books has commented on seeing Dark Sister for years) … perhaps Dark Sister was in fact a bastard sword, or reforged while at Castle Black with other Valyrian steel? This I think would weaken the blade though.

I believe the sword Blackfyre is in Illyrio Mopatis’ “safekeeping”, for his son Aegon, who is a Blackfyre through his mother Serra’s ancestry and not the son of Rhaegar and Elia. So don’t believe Longclaw was originally Blackfyre.

What do you think, is Longclaw House Mormont’s ancestral sword, Dark Sister in disguise or another well-known Valyrian steel blade?

[YOVMO]

I would have sworn on all I hold holy that Longclaw was in fact blackfyre --- right up until grrm flatly denied it.

 

i do not believe it is the mormont family sword. That whole story is way too suspicious to me. However, after the blackfyre heartbreak I have moved on and not given another shot to it. 

[Raisin' Bran]

There are many who will fight you tooth and claw over this very subject.  I do remember a few months ago this was brought up in another thread. Oh the fighting was fierce that day.

I do understand the possibility that Jon's sword is the same that Visenya carried during the conquest, but I feel the need to pick and choose which conspiracies and secrets I will get behind. Yes there are obviously many secrets not visible on a surface read of the text. But just because its possible, does not mean that it is the case.

So on the fence, but mostly on the Mormont's story side of things.

[cgrav]

I don't think it could be Dark Sister, because who would have been able to rework it into a larger blade? and where would the extra Valyrian steel have come from at the Wall? 

 

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

i do not believe it is the mormont family sword. That whole story is way too suspicious to me. 

Yeah, the story seems odd, though I can't think of any specific reason to doubt it, or anything that contradicts it. Are you supposing that Mormont knew the sword had some fantastical history? It wouldn't have been the hardest thing in the world to get the sword back to Bear Island, if he just didn't want it around. Maybe Jorah stole it, or took it in trade for slaves, and the Wall was the only place the sword could be concealed. Jorah was desperate to impress his wife, so I wouldn't put it past him to obtain such a sword through less-than-ethical means. I also can't think of any time Jorah mentions Longclaw (and the text search seems to be down right now), which would be consistent with deep shame, or complete ignorance of the sword's existence.


It's unclear to me whether Jeor knows more than we're led to believe. He clearly doesn't know much about the Others, else he wouldn't have risked taking a quarter of the Wall ranging in Otherland. And since he doesn't know about that stuff, I would say he's probably not a knowing/willing participant in some scheme to keep a special sword at the Wall. I guess if he knew that his raven was being warged he'd probably stay mum about taking advice from a talking raven inhabited by a tree god. 

And Jeor's apparent ignorance of all this only leaves open the possibility that Maester Aemon had some hand in a conspiracy to keep a Valyrian steel blade at the Wall. 

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

I've felt this way for quite some time, but the evidence is circumstantial at best. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

I honestly have no problem with the story as presented in the books. None of it fails the smell test and most of the alternate theories don't even belong outside of a rotten landfill

[Lord Vance II]

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I honestly have no problem with the story as presented in the books.

Second. GRRM kind of goes out of his way to show that VS sword ownership doesn't seem to follow rules. The Lannisters only ever had one and it was lost. The Starks apparently didn't have one until just before the Doom. House Drumm's only real feature is having Red Rain, which was probably stolen. Some Mormont might have stolen it or taken it from a fallen foe eons ago. Maybe off of a reaver who had himself taken it off who-knows-who. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

Second. GRRM kind of goes out of his way to show that VS sword ownership doesn't seem to follow rules. The Lannisters only ever had one and it was lost. The Starks apparently didn't have one until just before the Doom. House Drumm's only real feature is having Red Rain, which was probably stolen. Some Mormont might have stolen it or taken it from a fallen foe eons ago. Maybe off of a reaver who had himself taken it off who-knows-who. 

A decent theory I heard was that another Ironborn family had stolen a blade, and then in one of their invasions of Bear Island lost it to the Mormonts.  It could've even belonged to the Ironborn family who ruled there before the Starks conquered it and gave it to the Mormonts.

 

14 hours ago, Free folk Daemon said:

Was Longclaw originally a Valyrian steel blade other than House Mormont’s ancestral sword?

 

I know Longclaw is a bastard sword (hand-and-a-half sword, which the sword Blackfyre is meant to be also) and Dark Sister supposed to be a longsword (one-handed sword), but something about the books makes me think it could have somehow have originally been Dark Sister, at least partly.

 

Bear (XD) with me here:

My theory, based much on my imagination, is that Bloodraven took Dark Sister with him when he was sent to the Wall. After disappearing on a ranging when he was Lord Commander, Bloodraven became the three-eyed crow and lived in a cave beyond the Wall.

 

The sword was recovered by Night’s Watch rangers on a mission to find Bloodraven. They took it to the Lord Commander at the time the rangers found the sword, who kept it at Castle Black.

 

Bloodraven looked through time via weirnet, and, knowing Jon Snow was Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark’s son and was going to join the Night’s Watch, he then instructed Jeor Mormont to give Jon Dark Sister.

 

Bloodraven felt that as he wasn’t getting any younger and had seen Jon Snow had a destiny to lead people in defence against the attacks by the Others during the new Long Night, Jon would have greater use of the sword, being Valyrian steel and thus effective against the Others.

 

I might be reading too much into it. It seems appropriate, a Targaryen blade refashioned as a Stark one. Jon was raised a Stark, and so the blade linking back to his Targaryen heritage yet outwardly displaying a white direwolf head with garnet eyes, resembling Ghost, and reflecting his Stark heritage, would encapsulate his dual ancestry. Plus, I imagine dragons to have long claws as well as direwolves.

 

I think Bloodraven asked Mormont via his raven or some other method (weirwood tree?) to have it fashioned so that it was unrecognisable as Dark Sister, and to wait for an appropriate pretext to gift Jon the sword.

 

Dark Sister was the one damaged by the fire during the wight attack (its pommel melted and the crossguard and grip burned) and not the real Longclaw.

 

Jeor Mormont kept Longclaw hidden, his House’s ancestral Valyrian steel blade, after Jon saved his life from the wight attack, and presented Dark Sister to Jon in its place as both a thank you for saving him from the wight attack and in order to give him Dark Sister without suspicion from other people and Jon himself.

 

What doesn’t add up is the difference in size between the Longclaw and Dark Sister swords (though no one in the books has commented on seeing Dark Sister for years) … perhaps Dark Sister was in fact a bastard sword, or reforged while at Castle Black with other Valyrian steel? This I think would weaken the blade though.

 

I believe the sword Blackfyre is in Illyrio Mopatis’ “safekeeping”, for his son Aegon, who is a Blackfyre through his mother Serra’s ancestry and not the son of Rhaegar and Elia. So don’t believe Longclaw was originally Blackfyre.

 

What do you think, is Longclaw House Mormont’s ancestral sword, Dark Sister in disguise or another well-known Valyrian steel blade?

Your forgetting that Jorah possessed the blade, it was not always at Castle Black, that fact really eliminates all the conspiracy theories.

[sup]

3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 

 

Your forgetting that Jorah possessed the blade, it was not always at Castle Black, that fact really eliminates all the conspiracy theories.

this

[Red Man Racey]

3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

A decent theory I heard was that another Ironborn family had stolen a blade, and then in one of their invasions of Bear Island lost it to the Mormonts.  It could've even belonged to the Ironborn family who ruled there before the Starks conquered it and gave it to the Mormonts.

 

Your forgetting that Jorah possessed the blade, it was not always at Castle Black, that fact really eliminates all the conspiracy theories.

Disclaimer:  I am not advocating, supporting, or otherwise endorsing the theory that Longclaw is anything other than the Mormont family VS sword.

With that said, iirc we only have it from Jeor that Jorah left Longclaw before fleeing to the Free Cities; no other character mentions the history of Longclaw. As @cgrav pointed out, Jorah never mentions Longclaw or even possessing or leaving behind a VS sword (as far as I can remember, if this is not true please correct me). That is odd, but could be explained by his shame over the whole debacle. In the end, there are some potential peculiarities concerning Longclaw but I don't believe there is any reason to doubt the "official" story that we've been given.

[cgrav]

I agree that Jeor's story is the most plausible and as far as I can tell, also the only explanation we need. 

Jorah's silence on the sword is a purely negative implication, but is slightly conspicuous. Did Jorah really abandon his sword - that is, the Mormont name - rather than take it with him to Essos? It would have made him renowned among the sellswords. Further, he was the last male Mormont, meaning he left the sword to nobody, if the story is true. This is backed by fact that Maege brought it to Jeor, rather than giving it to little lord Lyanna, or even just hanging it on the wall (though I guess it is just "hanging on the Wall" now...).

It's still fun and informative to speculate on the swords' histories. I'd have to check to be sure, but I feel like a number of them came to Westeros within a century of each other, preceding the Doom very shortly. Why the sudden explosion of exports? Were mysterious and magical forces saving them from the Doom and putting them in place to fight the Others?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Does anyone think Jorah would consider Jeor's last words seriously? This, of course, if he were to find them out from Sam. We would probably learn more about the sword from Jorah if he went to tge wall. Would he try to get the sword back from Jon if he did follow Jorah's last words? 

Personally I think Jorah will never give up trying to get/stay with Dany. 

[Light a wight tonight]

Some interesting points in the OP. It sort of fits my crackpot that things at the Wall have been set up for Jon from Square 1.

One point that I have to differ with is the assumption that Valyrian Steel is effective against the Others. Maybe so, maybe no. The only evidence for that is the discussion between Sam and Jon, where Jon says that dragonsteel was Valryian steel and Sam replies that that had been his first guess. But there was no Valyria at the time of the Battle for the Dawn, and the First Men didn't have steel: it was a Bronze Age. "Dragonsteel" is a term some later scribe used to describe some unknown substance. Given the evidence of dragonstone being deadly to the Others the Last Hero might have been armed with something resembling an Aztec maquahuitl. 

[cgrav]

12 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

But there was no Valyria at the time of the Battle for the Dawn

1) There was no Valyria, but there were dragons and magic to fashion such a weapon. The steel making process is laid out in the Azor Ahai story, which may have initiated the Long Night

2) it's implied and assumed, but not shown, that the Battle for the Dawn was against the Others, or even that the battle is more than metaphorical

[Free folk Daemon]

On 14/10/2016 at 3:08 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

A decent theory I heard was that another Ironborn family had stolen a blade, and then in one of their invasions of Bear Island lost it to the Mormonts.  It could've even belonged to the Ironborn family who ruled there before the Starks conquered it and gave it to the Mormonts.

 

Your forgetting that Jorah possessed the blade, it was not always at Castle Black, that fact really eliminates all the conspiracy theories.

I'm not forgetting Jorah had Longclaw and left it at Bear Island before Maege returned it to Jeor. Was talking about the possibility that Dark Sister was taken to the Wall by Bloodraven and found by the Night's Watch after his disappearance or left at Castle Black by him.

Then Dark Sister was damaged during the wight attack and Jeor passed it off as Longclaw while keeping the real Longclaw hidden.

I know it is more logical to take the sword Jeor gifts Jon as the original Longclaw at face value. I have this feeling though from the section in the books where he does it doesn't feel completely right.

It may be coincidence that Jeor appoints Jon his steward and to paraphrase Sam is grooming Jon for command. Or maybe not. Maybe he and/or Maester Aemon knew Jon's real parentage and his supposed importance in the battle against the Others.

It may be my desire for the whereabouts of the two most famous Targaryen swords to be revealed in the books, but I'm not 100% convinced yet the sword Jeor gave Jon is the original Longclaw.

[Light a wight tonight]

On 10/14/2016 at 2:13 PM, cgrav said:

1) There was no Valyria, but there were dragons and magic to fashion such a weapon. The steel making process is laid out in the Azor Ahai story, which may have initiated the Long Night

2) it's implied and assumed, but not shown, that the Battle for the Dawn was against the Others, or even that the battle is more than metaphorical

The few dragons in Westeros were not domesticated, and there's no indication that the magic there was used to produce anything like steel. The Azor Ahai story is from the other side of the world.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

On October 14, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Light a wight tonight said:

Some interesting points in the OP. It sort of fits my crackpot that things at the Wall have been set up for Jon from Square 1.

One point that I have to differ with is the assumption that Valyrian Steel is effective against the Others. Maybe so, maybe no. The only evidence for that is the discussion between Sam and Jon, where Jon says that dragonsteel was Valryian steel and Sam replies that that had been his first guess. But there was no Valyria at the time of the Battle for the Dawn, and the First Men didn't have steel: it was a Bronze Age. "Dragonsteel" is a term some later scribe used to describe some unknown substance. Given the evidence of dragonstone being deadly to the Others the Last Hero might have been armed with something resembling an Aztec maquahuitl. 

Things were definitely set up for Jon at and beyond the Wall and back, or just rediculously coincidental. 

[Curled Finger]

On 10/15/2016 at 3:24 PM, Free folk Daemon said:

Jorah had Longclaw and left it at Bear Island before Maege returned it to Jeor.

Then Dark Sister was damaged during the wight attack and Jeor passed it off as Longclaw while keeping the real Longclaw hidden.

I know it is more logical to take the sword Jeor gifts Jon as the original Longclaw at face value. I have this feeling though from the section in the books where he does it doesn't feel completely right.

It may be coincidence that Jeor appoints Jon his steward and to paraphrase Sam is grooming Jon for command. Or maybe not. Maybe he and/or Maester Aemon knew Jon's real parentage and his supposed importance in the battle against the Others.

It may be my desire for the whereabouts of the two most famous Targaryen swords to be revealed in the books, but I'm not 100% convinced yet the sword Jeor gave Jon is the original Longclaw.

Sorry, couldn't resist.   Promise I will read everything else.  To the bold, I remembered Jorah actually took off with Longclaw then sent it back to Bear Island.   For all it's worth.   That goes to Jorah's character.   He wasn't that far gone for Lyness afterall.   

We don't even know that Dark Sister was ever at the wall.   (Though I am with you and believe BR took it North--there just isn't anything to substantiate it.)  Longclaw is clearly described as a bastard sword.   Not a long sword.  Longclaw is not Dark Sister.    The only sword that even comes close to Longclaw's description is Blackfyre.   And we don't know for sure that Blackfyre is a bastard sword.   All we do know is that it requires 1.5 hands to wield.   A bastard sword is longer and thicker than a long sword, but smaller than a greatsword.   This hands reference goes to the pommel, not the blade.   Dark Sister is a slender long sword.  Longclaw is a bastard sword. 

It's also my desire to have both Targ swords, hells bells, I want ALL the swords revealed in the story.   I have multiple drink bets riding on it.   Longclaw is one of the oldest Valyrian Steel Swords in Westeros.   It is stated in the inventories of the maesters of the Citadel.   It's been in the Mormont family for 500 years or so, along with the Tarly's Heartsbane, Royce's Lamentation and Lannister's Brightroar.  That doesn't by any means indicate that it wasn't someone else's sword 1st, but this is how it is recorded in the annuls of the land and all we really have to go on.   I get a kick out of all the secret identities of characters.  Longclaw may well be a secret Targ sword for all I know, but I can tell you it's not Orphan Maker, Dark Sister, Heartsbane, Ice, Lady Forlorn, Lamentation, Brightroar, Widows Wail, Oathkeeper, Nightfall, Red Rain or Dawn.   I will reserve judgement until I know more about Blackfyre, Vigilance and Truth.

There is no reason not to believe Jeor's sword isn't Longclaw.   By virture of its thusfar singular configuation Longclaw is special.  It doesn't need to be anything else.  There is a reason it is our only known bastard sword.   

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Sorry, couldn't resist.   Promise I will read everything else.  To the bold, I remembered Jorah actually took off with Longclaw then sent it back to Bear Island.   For all it's worth.   That goes to Jorah's character.   He wasn't that far gone for Lyness afterall.   

We don't even know that Dark Sister was ever at the wall.   (Though I am with you and believe BR took it North--there just isn't anything to substantiate it.)  Longclaw is clearly described as a bastard sword.   Not a long sword.  Longclaw is not Dark Sister.    The only sword that even comes close to Longclaw's description is Blackfyre.   And we don't know for sure that Blackfyre is a bastard sword.   All we do know is that it requires 1.5 hands to wield.   A bastard sword is longer and thicker than a long sword, but smaller than a greatsword.   This hands reference goes to the pommel, not the blade.   Dark Sister is a slender long sword.  Longclaw is a bastard sword. 

It's also my desire to have both Targ swords, hells bells, I want ALL the swords revealed in the story.   I have multiple drink bets riding on it.   Longclaw is one of the oldest Valyrian Steel Swords in Westeros.   It is stated in the inventories of the maesters of the Citadel.   It's been in the Mormont family for 500 years or so, along with the Tarly's Heartsbane, Royce's Lamentation and Lannister's Brightroar.  That doesn't by any means indicate that it wasn't someone else's sword 1st, but this is how it is recorded in the annuls of the land and all we really have to go on.   I get a kick out of all the secret identities of characters.  Longclaw may well be a secret Targ sword for all I know, but I can tell you it's not Orphan Maker, Dark Sister, Heartsbane, Ice, Lady Forlorn, Lamentation, Brightroar, Widows Wail, Oathkeeper, Nightfall, Red Rain or Dawn.   I will reserve judgement until I know more about Blackfyre, Vigilance and Truth.

There is no reason not to believe Jeor's sword isn't Longclaw.   By virture of its thusfar singular configuation Longclaw is special.  It doesn't need to be anything else.  There is a reason it is our only known bastard sword.   

No, Dark Sister was in fact a bastard blade, hand and a halfer, fit for a woman, Visenya.

[WarriorWitch]

“All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it’s said they remember things otherwise forgotten. And that beast of yours... he led us to the wights, warned you of the dead man on the steps. Ser Jaremy would doubtless call that happenstance, yet Ser Jaremy is dead and I’m not.” Lord Mormont stabbed a chunk of ham with the point of his dagger. “I think you were meant to be here, and I want you and that wolf of yours with us when we go beyond the Wall.”

I think it’s possible that Jeor Mormont knew more then he let on and tried to arm Jon as best he could. Maybe the site of the White that Jon killed jogged a few memories.

I can 100% believe that Longclaw is not actually Longclaw. Which sword it is and how it ended up at the Nights watch is harder to prove.

Actually this thread reminded me of a conversation my friend and I had a while back where we speculated that Rhaegar might have gifted Lyanna a VS sword the same way Jon gave Ayra Needle. Than that sword somehow ended up at Castle Black.