John Doe

Why do the Arryns live in the Eyrie?

36 posts in this topic

On 1/10/2017 at 2:08 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

The road up to the Eyrie is eminently defensible. It would require an extremely small garrison to hold off an huge army trying to capture the Royal family. Even if the gates of the moon are taken, there is still the climb up to the peak, which is designed to bleed an invading dry.

And if you do manage to get past both the Bloody Gate and the Gates of the Moon, you still have to get past the three waycastles between the GotM and the Eyrie. Those three outposts may not be as strong as the BG or the GotM, but they do still have their own defenses.

Edited by psychogobstopper

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Has George provided us with an idea of the elevation of the Eyrie? The reason that I ask is I wonder if altitude sickness may have some effect on the people who go to the Eyrie. It would certainly have a role the physiological effect of seeing it for the first time, but would and attacking army be moving quickly enough to be affected?

22 hours ago, psychogobstopper said:

And if you do manage to get past both the Bloody Gate and the Gates of the Moon, you still have to get past the three waycastles between the GotM and the Eyrie. Those three outposts may not be as strong as the BG or the GotM, but they do still have their own defenses.

 
 

Would those three outposts provide enough of a rest in between to prevent the symptoms of altitude sickness causing a problem or even appearing at all?

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On 1/16/2017 at 9:00 PM, Nightmairdragon said:

Would those three outposts provide enough of a rest in between to prevent the symptoms of altitude sickness causing a problem or even appearing at all?

The first two waycastles aren't on the Giant's Lance itself, they're on the ground before the mountain. Stone actually has a two-tower keep, stables, and a yard. Snow is nestled into the mountain and has a single tower with a timber keep, plus stables outside the keep. Sky is the only one on the mountain, and is the one six hundred feet below the Eyrie and the last stop before ascending up to the great castle.

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It's got to be tradition at this point, no? It's not exactly practical, but they have clearly made it work so ... why not? It's a state of power and says a lot about being the Lords Paramount of Mountain and Vale. 

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On 1/19/2017 at 3:08 PM, psychogobstopper said:

The first two waycastles aren't on the Giant's Lance itself, they're on the ground before the mountain. Stone actually has a two-tower keep, stables, and a yard. Snow is nestled into the mountain and has a single tower with a timber keep, plus stables outside the keep. Sky is the only one on the mountain, and is the one six hundred feet below the Eyrie and the last stop before ascending up to the great castle.

 

Thank you

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On 14/10/2016 at 7:55 AM, LionoftheWest said:

I suspect it may be a caricature of the fantastical fantasy castles that sometimes prop up with no regard for logistics or comfort for the inhabitants.


How exactly would it be a "caricature" when none of those problems in regard to logistics or comfort are made fun of, parodied or even really factor into the plot?

The worst "problems" associated with the Eyrie are that it has to be abandoned come winter (in a place where winter isn't a problem for several years on end) and that they weren't able to have a godswood.

Lysa seems perfectly comfortable in her castle, it's consistently described as beautiful and their supply of food and other materials is stable and sufficient.

I don't really see where the "caricature" part comes in.

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14 hours ago, Orphalesion said:


How exactly would it be a "caricature" when none of those problems in regard to logistics or comfort are made fun of, parodied or even really factor into the plot?

The worst "problems" associated with the Eyrie are that it has to be abandoned come winter (in a place where winter isn't a problem for several years on end) and that they weren't able to have a godswood.

Lysa seems perfectly comfortable in her castle, it's consistently described as beautiful and their supply of food and other materials is stable and sufficient.

I don't really see where the "caricature" part comes in.

I base it on how it lies on an fantastical place and Tyrion thinks during his ascent that it would be close to impossible to take by storm. But when the Lord Declarent come to the castle, they don't need to take anything by storm but rather easily sets up a blockade.

The problem I see with the Eyrie is that beyond being nice to look at and of poetic value, the castle is petty bad. Its a pain to keep it supplied, there's no need for anyone to storm it and like you said, no one can live there during winter.

So I have to conclude that its a pretty bad castle despite the very fantasy element of it lying on the top of a mountain and being essentially impossible to storm.

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2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I base it on how it lies on an fantastical place and Tyrion thinks during his ascent that it would be close to impossible to take by storm. But when the Lord Declarent come to the castle, they don't need to take anything by storm but rather easily sets up a blockade.

The problem I see with the Eyrie is that beyond being nice to look at and of poetic value, the castle is petty bad. Its a pain to keep it supplied, there's no need for anyone to storm it and like you said, no one can live there during winter.

So I have to conclude that its a pretty bad castle despite the very fantasy element of it lying on the top of a mountain and being essentially impossible to storm.

So by your assessment Doriath and Lothlorien are "caricatures" of the Hidden Elf Realm because the former's protection could neither save Luthien from being trust into danger nor the realm itself from falling through treachery (same with Gondolin) and the latter was as much a gilded prison as it was a refuge, had an element of evil at the core of the power that supported it and ultimately harmed both the people living there and the very forest itself?

I'm not saying that it isn't a less than optimal castle but I wouldn't go as far as to call it a "cericature" of fantasy castles. It's clear that the power of Eyre is mostly psychological, if it came to a siege they wouldn't be able to feed themselves and would have to surrender eventually. However the same is true for many real life castles, who had formidable walls and were seen as impossible to storm, but were starved to death.

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The Eyrie is an awesome castle probably  the best answer lol. It keeps you cool in the summer is made from the finest marble money can buy and of course for historical purposes the kings of the Vale belong at the Eyrie. Who wants to stay at the gates of the moon year round its more of a military base then a home. 

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On 2017-01-28 at 3:48 PM, Orphalesion said:

So by your assessment Doriath and Lothlorien are "caricatures" of the Hidden Elf Realm because the former's protection could neither save Luthien from being trust into danger nor the realm itself from falling through treachery (same with Gondolin) and the latter was as much a gilded prison as it was a refuge, had an element of evil at the core of the power that supported it and ultimately harmed both the people living there and the very forest itself?

I'm not saying that it isn't a less than optimal castle but I wouldn't go as far as to call it a "cericature" of fantasy castles. It's clear that the power of Eyre is mostly psychological, if it came to a siege they wouldn't be able to feed themselves and would have to surrender eventually. However the same is true for many real life castles, who had formidable walls and were seen as impossible to storm, but were starved to death.

I think is a caricature in the same way that Harrenhall, the greatest castle in the world, basically goes around every time some new force shows up. Its to show that spectacular does not mean that its very good for its task. The things with real castles is that if the blockade isn't airtight, food can be smuggled in like to Storm's End, or that you can do sorties from the castle or control a line of communication and movement from it. Nothing can be done from the Eyrie which just has to sit tight and hope for outside relief.

Also Tolkien writes in another style so I doubt that there's any kind of caricature in Tolkien's writings, more tragedy though.

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On 7.2.2017 at 5:31 AM, LionoftheWest said:

I think is a caricature in the same way that Harrenhall, the greatest castle in the world, basically goes around every time some new force shows up. Its to show that spectacular does not mean that its very good for its task. The things with real castles is that if the blockade isn't airtight, food can be smuggled in like to Storm's End, or that you can do sorties from the castle or control a line of communication and movement from it. Nothing can be done from the Eyrie which just has to sit tight and hope for outside relief.

Also Tolkien writes in another style so I doubt that there's any kind of caricature in Tolkien's writings, more tragedy though.

True, I guess the real castle would be the Gates of the Moon. The Eyrie is more of a glorified refuge castle for its lords than a valuable strategic asset. 

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7 hours ago, John Doe said:

True, I guess the real castle would be the Gates of the Moon. The Eyrie is more of a glorified refuge castle for its lords than a valuable strategic asset. 

Exactly!

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On 07/02/2017 at 5:31 AM, LionoftheWest said:

I think is a caricature in the same way that Harrenhall, the greatest castle in the world, basically goes around every time some new force shows up. Its to show that spectacular does not mean that its very good for its task. The things with real castles is that if the blockade isn't airtight, food can be smuggled in like to Storm's End, or that you can do sorties from the castle or control a line of communication and movement from it. Nothing can be done from the Eyrie which just has to sit tight and hope for outside relief.

Also Tolkien writes in another style so I doubt that there's any kind of caricature in Tolkien's writings, more tragedy though.

My point was that both authors tend to think more about the implications of the worlds and places they create than dimestore fantasy book authors. But having something well thought out doesn't necessarily make them a "caricature" of less well thought out things.

Calling something a "caricature", to me, implies that the concept's features are exaggerated for comedic effect. The Eyrie would be a "caricature" if the Giant's Lance was as tall as Mount Everest and they would throw lavish feasts all the time and shush anybody who asks how they get the food on-top the mountain. 

Not everything in ASoIaF is a "caricature" or a "deconstruction" only because there is some thought placed into stuff. Having castles that had psychological effect as their main feature was a thing that happened in reality.

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2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Calling something a "caricature", to me, implies that the concept's features are exaggerated for comedic effect. The Eyrie would be a "caricature" if the Giant's Lance was as tall as Mount Everest and they would throw lavish feasts all the time and shush anybody who asks how they get the food on-top the mountain. 

Not everything in ASoIaF is a "caricature" or a "deconstruction" only because there is some thought placed into stuff. Having castles that had psychological effect as their main feature was a thing that happened in reality.

The 'caricature' part of it lies in GRRM's incessant repetition of the refrain lauding the castle's 'impregnability', designed for comedo-dramatic effect and as ironic foreshadowing -- its so-called impregnability irresistibly inviting thoughts of its opposite, namely its impregnation; just as talk of a woman's virginity invariably invites thoughts of someone breaching that maidenhead -- so that when the castle is finally 'impregnated,' as it were, the literary impact will be heightened!

P.S.  Harren also used to brag about the 'impregnability' of Harrenhal..

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

Suddenly outnumbered, King Harren the Black took refuge in his supposedly impregnable stronghold. The largest castle ever raised in Westeros, Harrenhal boasted five gargantuan towers, an inexhaustible source of fresh water, huge, subterranean vaults well stocked with provisions, and massive walls of black stone higher than any ladder and too thick to be broken by any ram or shattered by a trebuchet. Harren barred his gates and settled down with his remaining sons and supporters to withstand a siege.

Aegon of Dragonstone was of a different mind. Once he had joined his power with that of Edmyn Tully and the other riverlords to ring the castle, he sent a maester to the gates under a peace banner, to parley. Harren emerged to meet him—an old man and grey, yet still fierce in his black armor. Each king had his banner-bearer and his maester in attendance, so the words that they exchanged are still remembered.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Stormlands: House Baratheon

House Baratheon was born amidst the rain and mud of the battle known to history as the Last Storm, when Orys Baratheon thrice turned back the charge of the knights of Storm's End and slew their king Argilac the Arrogant in single combat. Storm's End, long thought to be impregnable, yielded to Orys without a battle (wisely, given the fate of Harrenhal). Afterward Orys took King Argilac's daughter to wife and adopted the Durrandon arms and words as his own to honor Argilac's valor.

Note how the 'impregnation' of a castle is often accompanied by the parallel impregnation of the daughter and/or wife of the vanquished party.

Further examples of the sexual metaphor:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Alayne I

"How old are you, child?" asked Lady Waynwood.

"Four-fourteen, my lady." For a moment she forgot how old Alayne should be. "And I am no child, but a maiden flowered."

"But not deflowered, one can hope." Young Lord Hunter's bushy mustache hid his mouth entirely.

"Yet," said Lyn Corbray, as if she were not there. "But ripe for plucking soon, I'd say."

"Is that what passes for courtesy at Heart's Home?" Anya Waynwood's hair was greying and she had crow's-feet around her eyes and loose skin beneath her chin, but there was no mistaking the air of nobility about her. "The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser."

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa III

Laughter burst from the lips of Ser Osmund Kettleblack. Someone else sniggered. But Joff did not laugh, nor Lord Tywin. "Your Grace," he said, "my son is drunk, you can see that."

"I am," the Imp confessed, "but not so drunk that I cannot attend to my own bedding." He hopped down from the dais and grabbed Sansa roughly. "Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle."

Red-faced, Sansa went with him from the Small Hall. What choice do I have? Tyrion waddled when he walked, especially when he walked as quickly as he did now. The gods were merciful, and neither Joffrey nor any of the others moved to follow.

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII

She did not know how long he had been watching her, or when he had returned from the Vale. "A stick?" she asked.

"That will give it strength enough to stand, I'd think," Petyr said. "May I come into your castle, my lady?"

Sansa was wary. "Don't break it. Be . . . "

" . . . gentle?" He smiled. "Winterfell has withstood flercer enemies than me. It is Winterfell, is it not?"

"Yes," Sansa admitted.

He walked along outside the walls. "I used to dream of it, in those years after Cat went north with Eddard Stark. In my dreams it was ever a dark place, and cold."

"No. It was always warm, even when it snowed. Water from the hot springs is piped through the walls to warm them, and inside the glass gardens it was always like the hottest day of summer." She stood, towering over the great white castle. "I can't think how to do the glass roof over the gardens."

Littlefinger stroked his chin, where his beard had been before Lysa had asked him to shave it off. "The glass was locked in frames, no? Twigs are your answer. Peel them and cross them and use bark to tie them together into frames. I'll show you." He moved through the garden, gathering up twigs and sticks and shaking the snow from them. When he had enough, he stepped over both walls with a single long stride and squatted on his heels in the middle of the yard.

He impregnates Winterfell and squats down in the middle of her yard -- as if to defecate!  And what does the 'middle of the yard' at Winterfell represent but the godswood...so not content with symbolically despoiling the maiden, Petyr is also shitting in the godswood:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion IV

Just for a moment, he thought he saw a flicker of doubt in her eyes, but what she said was, "Why would Petyr lie to me?"

"Why does a bear shit in the woods?" he demanded. "Because it is his nature. Lying comes as easily as breathing to a man like Littlefinger. You ought to know that, you of all people."

She took a step toward him, her face tight. "And what does that mean, Lannister?"

Likewise, he's also impregnated the supposedly 'impregnable' (as he impregnated Lysa with a 'robin') and is shitting in the eagle's/falcon's nest (i.e. 'Eyrie'), since when he squats in the middle of the courtyard, by GRRM's deliberately equivocal language, it represents at one and the same time both the Eyrie (the castle in which they're physically standing) and Winterfell (the castle they're symbolically building).

Edited by ravenous reader

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43 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

text

 

That still isn't a caricature, as I said, if that makes the Eyrie a "caricature" then Lothlorien and Doriath are caricatures as well. Especially Lothlorien.

43 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Likewise, he's also impregnated the supposedly 'impregnable' (as he impregnated Lysa with a 'robin') and is shitting in the eagle's/falcon's nest (i.e. 'Eyrie'), since when he squats in the middle of the courtyard, by GRRM's deliberately equivocal language, it represents at one and the same time both the Eyrie (the castle in which they're physically standing) and Winterfell (the castle they're symbolically building). .

PFFFT No.Also an aerie is a type of bird nest, of course birds would have an easy time nesting there. 

Edited by Orphalesion

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34 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

an aerie is a type of bird nest, of course birds would have an easy time nesting there. 

Only, Littlefinger is not a bird -- only someone pretending to be one!

He's a snake who has impregnated the nest and plans on stealing the eggs (represented by Robin and Sansa).

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