Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

[devilish]

2 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Barristan absolutely has a sense of chivalry! Sure he bent the knee to Robert, but that absolutely does not mean that he'd tell all about Lyanna's whereabouts to the man when he has just seen the carcasses's of Rhaegars children laid at his feet and heard his reaction, when he likely knew the girl had loved her prince and gone willingly with him, when he knew that now that she is "used goods" Robert can't possibly make her his Queen, likely won't want to anyway, and that her fate at this point looks grim as dish water. With the only thing saving her from being sent to the silent sisters for wantonness likely being Ned's relationship with Robert.  Barristan isn't Hightower, who stood and listened whilst Rhaella was raped and abused. He might be a KG but the man has a heart and he has a sense of right & wrong. We as a reader can tell this through being in his POV. 

Are you referring to the same person who stood still while Aerys was burning people around? The man who stood still when Cersei tore up Robert's will and Ned was backstabbed by the Gold cloaks? The same man who bend the knee to Joffrey and then threw a hissy fit and joined the opposition when Joffrey didn't like him anymore?

That does sound like a sellsword to me. 

 

[Greywater-Watch]

I agree that Barristan Selmy's "chivalry" can (or even must) be doubted. But whatever:

Once he swore fealty to Robert, if he was really loyal then, it was his duty to reveal Lyanna's whereabout.

If Selmy had no real sense of loyalty/chivalry at the level some comments suggest, then - what should prevent Selmy to tell about Lyanna's whereabout even before he bend the knee to Robert?

And by the way, IF there had been a treason (to chivalry/to the oath of the Kings Guard/to honour) it was at the moment Selmy bent his knee to Robert.

[bent branch]

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

He took superior odds. That's obvious. And he couldn't take an army because he was being secretive. Remember, he doesn't want Robert knowing what he knows/suspects.

Ned takes six guys. All armed. It's as secretive as he can be while being safe enough to be able to get to Lyanna.

Why do you think Ned was surprised to see the three KG there?  I don't get that from the text. Can you quote the surprised reaction? Or the piece of text that shows him being surprised to find them there?.

Also, Ned can be a tad silly with decisions but the mans no fool. He can figure things out, and that's what I think he did with all the bits of info he had. 

When Ned arrives, both parties know what the other is there for, I thought that was obvious.

Why the hell did Ned need to be secretive about what he was doing? Ned thought Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. Robert also thought Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. Ned was going to bring back his sister. Robert also wanted Lyanna brought back. It wasn't until Ned found a dying Lyanna and Jon that he needed to get secretive. Geesh.

[tugela]

13 hours ago, devilish said:

First of all Robert would never send the golden boy's head on a spike. Grand dad was financing Robert's lousy existence and KL was his oyster. Robert knew too well not to upset the old man as he could have him killed anytime, any place. If Cersei could do it, then imagine what Tywin could do. 

Secondly Jamie (at least during that period) wasn't the sort of person who cared alot of consequences. We're talking about a man who killed the King inside the King's castle, who repeatedly screwed the king's wife inside the King's castle, who threw a Lord Paramount's son from the window inside the Lord Paramount's castle and who wounded the hand of the king/Robert's best mate/ Robert's loyal Bitch in Kings landing. Do you seriously believe he would think twice of bragging about knowing Lyanna's location and telling it to Ned instead of the King? After all, what's so tragic in doing so? Ned was the first one to arrive in KL. He was the one representing the king as Robert was still tending to his wounds. What is so scandalous in telling Ned about Lyanna's location? Surely, loyal Ned would have relayed the information to the king wouldn't he?

 

Tywin only joined the rebellion at the very end, when it became clear that the rebels were going to win. Robert did not need Tywin. In fact, it would have been to Robert's advantage later on to provoke him into an act of insolence, because it would have given him the opportunity to execute Tywin and seize his lands (along with all his gold). Something like what Henry VIII would have (and did) done.

Jamie may have done a lot of stuff in private, but openly disrespecting the king would have gotten him killed. There is no way something like that would go unpunished. Disrespecting other people would have been fine. Even throwing Bran from the tower would have been fine, after all, the boy was spying on the queen in a delicate state. Jaime would have just said that he caught the boy and acted in outrage. Anything beyond that would have been the queen's word against Bran's, and there is no question who would be believed.

[tugela]

3 hours ago, bent branch said:

Why the hell did Ned need to be secretive about what he was doing? Ned thought Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. Robert also thought Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. Ned was going to bring back his sister. Robert also wanted Lyanna brought back. It wasn't until Ned found a dying Lyanna and Jon that he needed to get secretive. Geesh.

If Ned knew where Lyanna was, he also would have known why she was there. If Robert had been told, he would have sent people like Clegane to go and get her, and there is no question that Lyanna would have been executed, probably before she made it back to KL. Firstly because she had run off with someone else when betrothed to the (new) king (= treason), and secondly because Robert was being set up with Cersei (= Lyanna being super inconvenient).

It suited Robert for Lyanna to be dead, because then he could pretend that she had been abducted and raped, and could pine after her as a noble long lost love. A live Lyanna would have put lie to all that, which would have shamed Robert in a chivalric sense. So she had to go, and Ned would have been well aware of that. So he committed treason himself, and as a result had to be secret about it all.

As long as no one talked about it, it was in everyone's mutual interests to go along with the sham. As soon as one of them started talking however, there would be no option but to put heads on spikes.

[tugela]

15 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This is something I have long suspected. 

Barristan and Jaime are the only KG remaining in KL when Rhaegar returns after leaving Lyanna at the ToJ with Dayne,Whent & Hightower. Of these two Barristan is the senior, and Rhaegar takes him with him to the Trident. Where they travel together, side by side; no one stays silent during a march to war, secrets are spilled & confidences are made as are arrangements for if the worst should happen.

Barristan has served as a KG since the year Rhaegar was born. Meaning he has watched the boy grow up and protected him his whole life. Meaning he is highly likely emotionally invested in the boy/man and Rhaegar has reason to trust him. Rhaegar logically has to inform someone where Lyanna and the other KG are, as dying in battle is a very real possibility. I think it is only logical that Rhaegar told Selmy where Lyanna was. And that it was Barristan Selmy who told Ned where to look for his sister.  It certainly makes a lot of sense. 

Also Barristan knows Rhaegar Loved his lady Lyanna. He thinks this in his own private thoughts, meaning it is without exaggeration bias, he isn't trying to big up Rhaegar to Dany here he is simply recollecting. He knows Rhaegar loved her. Which I think implies Rhaegar told him he did. If he told him he loved her, what else did he tell him? 

Another factor is the fact that Dany has a story of Lyanna & Rhaegar, she thinks about what she has been told of them on her way to the wedding to Hizdhar. She thinks that if Daario truly loved her he would come and carry her off at swordpoint as Rhaegar did his Northern Girl. So someone was telling her this story growing up. either Viserys though he was only 8 when the rebellion occured so I doubt Rhaegar told his little brother first hand of how he claimed his lady love. Or Darry told them both of the tale, he was master of arms at the red keep. And he took flight with Viserys and Rhaella. Might Rhaella have confided in her last loyal knight of her sons actions? Somehow the story got transferred to Dany. Meaning the entire shit show was less of a top secret than many readers assume. 

Also worth noting is the fact Hightower somehow knew where to find them too. It is assumed Aerys had no knowledge of his sons whereabouts. But do we actually have in text or an SSM to prove that? Might his mother had known where their son was all along, and confided in her KG Capt when the need for her sons return became obvious?  

 

Barristan may have known, but he was a the Trident, not KL. Ned would have found out when he went to KL, there is no indication that he has alone with Barristan, but we do know that he was alone with Jaime. Jaime is the more likely source.

And in any case, it would have been apparent that the Daynes were involved in concealing Lyanna. Since Ser Barristan was in love with Ashara, he would not have done anything to place her family potentially at risk, so even if he knew, he would not have told anyone. Jaime on the other hand had no motive to keep it a secret when he met Ned. In fact, telling Ned may have been the only thing that kept him alive.

[tugela]

The Daynes treason would have been committed by Arthur and Ashara. Arthur died at the ToJ, while Ashara conveniently threw herself from a tower at Starfall. So, all of the Daynes who could be punished for treason were now (supposedly) dead. At the time Ser Barristan would not have known that, so he kept his silence. Afterwards he would have had to explain why he kept his silence even after bending the knee (and in doing so committed treason), so he had a motive to continue keeping his silence.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

15 hours ago, devilish said:

Are you referring to the same person who stood still while Aerys was burning people around? The man who stood still when Cersei tore up Robert's will and Ned was backstabbed by the Gold cloaks? The same man who bend the knee to Joffrey and then threw a hissy fit and joined the opposition when Joffrey didn't like him anymore?

That does sound like a sellsword to me. 

 

I don't think that being discreet about informing a great Lord of the whereabouts of his kid sister who's life and reputation is now in tatters is at all out of his character. His standing by whilst political machinations take place due to his role as KG, are not in the same category as that at all. The divulgence of information to Ned about his sister is a private matter. And telling Ned and not Robert is not a treason as such. He's still told the relivant person. As until she wed's Robert she is still Ned's charge (all her elder male relatives have died.). 

Besides which, do you think Ned told Robert where he was going? Do you think Robert was actually actively seeking informants as to where she was?  Or do you think he was busy negotiating with Tywin and dealing with the tenuous peace in KL? Ned rode off to find his sister. Robert sat on the IT and did whatever. Throughout the rebellion, Robert seems to have failed to have sought out Lyanna, to have shown his distress at her "kidnap"  it is quite clear from the text that Robert's love for her is really about desire of possession and not genuine at all. If he was so desperate for her, due to love his priority would be locating her, and it seems that it wasn't. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

6 hours ago, tugela said:

Barristan may have known, but he was a the Trident, not KL. Ned would have found out when he went to KL, there is no indication that he has alone with Barristan, but we do know that he was alone with Jaime. Jaime is the more likely source.

And in any case, it would have been apparent that the Daynes were involved in concealing Lyanna. Since Ser Barristan was in love with Ashara, he would not have done anything to place her family potentially at risk, so even if he knew, he would not have told anyone. Jaime on the other hand had no motive to keep it a secret when he met Ned. In fact, telling Ned may have been the only thing that kept him alive.

Jaime is also a good option. I forgot that Barristan was not in KL in the immediate aftermath of the sack.  I actually have long thought that Jaime also knows a lot more than the reader is currently aware. 

My main point in regard to both men is that I think we are underestimating how much each knows in general in regards to Lyanna and Rhaegar.  They are the last remaining KG of the Targaryen dynasty and as such would have been privileged to information regarding the royal household which others are not. 

Barristan could have been the informant, as could Jaime. As could a simple house maid who perhaps overheard a conversation between Rhaegar and Rhaella. 

My main bugbear with the secret of Lyanna's location is that there is simply no reason at all for Rhaegar to keep it so secret within his own household. He returns from Dorne to lead the forces and she stays at the ToJ. One presumes because of her pregnancy. She was too far gone to travel, and medieval noble women went into confinement in the third trimester. He intends upon deposing his father after the battle and clearly has some plan in regards to her for the long term. Why is she being kept in a top secret location? I don't think it was top secret as such, but rather that once he got back to KL he revealed to a select few where he has been and what exactly went on between the two of them.  Simply put there is absolutely no reason for him not to. 

 

[bent branch]

8 hours ago, tugela said:

If Ned knew where Lyanna was, he also would have known why she was there. If Robert had been told, he would have sent people like Clegane to go and get her, and there is no question that Lyanna would have been executed, probably before she made it back to KL. Firstly because she had run off with someone else when betrothed to the (new) king (= treason), and secondly because Robert was being set up with Cersei (= Lyanna being super inconvenient).

It suited Robert for Lyanna to be dead, because then he could pretend that she had been abducted and raped, and could pine after her as a noble long lost love. A live Lyanna would have put lie to all that, which would have shamed Robert in a chivalric sense. So she had to go, and Ned would have been well aware of that. So he committed treason himself, and as a result had to be secret about it all.

As long as no one talked about it, it was in everyone's mutual interests to go along with the sham. As soon as one of them started talking however, there would be no option but to put heads on spikes.

??????????????????????????? Uh, no.

Edited to add stuff so it's no so rude. If you remember one of the stories about why Robert's Rebellion happened was because Robert was trying to save his betrothed. There is no way anyone was going to behead Lyanna.

[El Dude]

Going back to the Ned chapter in which he dreams and recalls confronting the 3x Kingsguard, a clear timeline resolves and it kills many of the hypotheses that have been put forth so far:

Quote

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"Woe to the Ursurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jamie slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," said Ser Gerold, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in the seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the seige," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all the knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend so easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained Ser Gerold.

My boldings. This section clearly indicates that Ned had no idea where the missing Kingsguard were until after he lifted the seige at Storm's End. Something happened only after Tyrell and Redwyne surrendered. This eliminates Jamie, Ser Barristan, and Varys who are all in King's Landing. It's possible that someone in Storm's End had secret knowledge, but we have no firm knowledge of that as of yet.

FWIW, my money is on an Ashara Danye link/tip off. GRRM refuses to answer any more questions about he or her timeline so we know there's some good info of some sorts there.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 hours ago, bent branch said:

Why the hell did Ned need to be secretive about what he was doing? Ned thought Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. Robert also thought Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. Ned was going to bring back his sister. Robert also wanted Lyanna brought back. It wasn't until Ned found a dying Lyanna and Jon that he needed to get secretive. Geesh.

Why do you think this? I'm not being intentionally awkward,but can you give me a quote from the text that backs this up??

And seriously!!??? Why did Ned need to be secretive ??Are you SERIOUS!

Your wrong. I hate too bring the news.But... you are.

[devilish]

8 hours ago, tugela said:

Tywin only joined the rebellion at the very end, when it became clear that the rebels were going to win. Robert did not need Tywin. In fact, it would have been to Robert's advantage later on to provoke him into an act of insolence, because it would have given him the opportunity to execute Tywin and seize his lands (along with all his gold). Something like what Henry VIII would have (and did) done.

Jamie may have done a lot of stuff in private, but openly disrespecting the king would have gotten him killed. There is no way something like that would go unpunished. Disrespecting other people would have been fine. Even throwing Bran from the tower would have been fine, after all, the boy was spying on the queen in a delicate state. Jaime would have just said that he caught the boy and acted in outrage. Anything beyond that would have been the queen's word against Bran's, and there is no question who would be believed.

 At the battle of the trident the royalists had around 40k most of whom reluctant to fight (the Dornish soldiers were threatened by Aerys, the Reach spent most of their time guarding a fortress). The rebels had slightly less men but they were battle hardened. 

The Lannisters can master around 12k-20k army all fresh soldiers, greatly equipped and fiercely loyal to the Lannisters. Tywin could also influence Walder to join the fight since his sister is married to his son and we all know that he's got a knack of making Walder do nasty things. That means an extra 3k to the fight. That would have swung the balance to the rebel's side. The rebels would have more numbers, more experience, more everything. Tywin knew that and he didn't acted. Considering what we know about Tywin, do you think that he would sit out from this unique opportunity of getting his revenge if he knew that the king raped his wife and saddled him with his little monster that would end up his heir?

If Tywin was afraid of losing Jamie then he would have stayed in CR throughout the entire war or even join the royalists rather then stay put. Instead he marched to KL and sacked the city while his son was at the red keep alongside the king. Throughout the entire story we've seen Lannisters killing 2 kings, injuring a hand of the king and still getting away with it. KL is their oyster.

 

 

 

 

[bent branch]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Why do you think this? I'm not being intentionally awkward,but can you give me a quote from the text that backs this up??

And seriously!!??? Why did Ned need to be secretive ??Are you SERIOUS!

Your wrong. I hate too bring the news.But... you are.

AGOT-Chapter 4: "Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised. "You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection..."

AGOT-Chapter 12: It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

AGOT-Chapter 12: "That did not bring her back." Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. "The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown...it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe...and mine again, as she was meant to be..."

AGOT-Chapter 45: ...(Eddard) What did he do to make you hate him so?"

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."

There you go. These are only four quotes. All from AGOT. There are others where other characters (Davos, Brienne, Bran and Catelyn to name a few) talk about how Robert's Rebellion happened when Rhaegar kidnapped Robert's betrothed Lyanna. All showing that Eddard did not have to secretively go to find Lyanna. Robert would have been all to happy to have gotten Lyanna back, even under those circumstances. It was only after Ned discovered that she had given birth to Rhaegar's child that a problem arose.

I don't know how you missed this aspect of the story. These references come from the first 45 chapters in the series and I didn't even use all of them.

[bent branch]

2 hours ago, El Dude said:

Going back to the Ned chapter in which he dreams and recalls confronting the 3x Kingsguard, a clear timeline resolves and it kills many of the hypotheses that have been put forth so far:

My boldings. This section clearly indicates that Ned had no idea where the missing Kingsguard were until after he lifted the seige at Storm's End. Something happened only after Tyrell and Redwyne surrendered. This eliminates Jamie, Ser Barristan, and Varys who are all in King's Landing. It's possible that someone in Storm's End had secret knowledge, but we have no firm knowledge of that as of yet.

FWIW, my money is on an Ashara Danye link/tip off. GRRM refuses to answer any more questions about he or her timeline so we know there's some good info of some sorts there.

The only thing that happened at Storm's End was that Ned saw the KG weren't serving there so he assumed that they went with Willem Darry and the kids. Full stop. There is literally no one at the siege on either side that has any idea where Lyanna was. Come on, who do you think Rhaegar told, Stannis or Mace Tyrell? KL is the last place Ned was in contact with someone who could reasonably be expected to know.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

On 16/10/2016 at 0:04 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Made him - how?

Told him - when? When everything happened, Ned was back in the Vale, the last time she'd seen him was most likely the HH tourney. She made the decision then, she told Ned then, and executed the plan much later?

Although I agree that Ned probably did know almost from the beginning (say, from when he got to Riverrun). And so did Brandon - which perfectly explains his otherwise idiotic course of action. Maybe Benjen was involved somehow, too (helped her? tried and failed to stop her? didn't try to stop her, just passed the message?), and that's why he took the black.

Dude! I did say it was possibly crackpot! 

Making someone promise is a figure of speech.  It doesn't necessarily imply force or coercion. How about "begged him to promise" then? He may have promised out of brotherly love for Lyanna without realising the carnage that would ensue and, when he did realise, it was too late to stop it and it would have meant revealing his betrayal to Robert, so he kept schtum.  Or, he may have found out some other way and confronted her and she begged him not to tell.  

I think if this happened, it was later than Harrenhal Tourney.  We don't know exactly when or where Ned and Lyanna last met any more than we know the circumstances around her making off with Rhaegar, or even where she was at the time.  It's not impossible that she and Ned met up somewhere before she left or when she was on her way south.  She could have travelled in disguise, maybe even as a boy (possibly hinted at with KoTLT story and also her similarity to Arya who travelled disguised as a boy). 

Anyway, I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm saying it's a possible theory.

To me, it makes more sense as a promise that would haunt Ned so badly, because of the damage it caused.  The promise to protect Jon (his own nephew and dead sister's orphan) was something so honourable Ned couldn't have said no to it, even if it meant lying to Cat and Jon.  It saved Jon's life, so the good outweighed the bad.

I don't believe Brandon ever knew.  It seems likely that Harrenhal tourney hatched plan A, which was replacing Aerys with Rhaegar.  Then the 'abduction' of Lyanna caused Rickard & Brandon to go south and kick off plan B (Roberts rebellion) instead.  If Brandon knew in advance, why would he want to kick off plan B?   R+L=J puts Brandon & his family in a position of strength of weakness if Robert usurps the Targs and wants to get rid of any future threats.  It is likely they would have been much better off with Rhaegar on the throne.  

[Geddus]

3 hours ago, bent branch said:

The only thing that happened at Storm's End was that Ned saw the KG weren't serving there so he assumed that they went with Willem Darry and the kids.

Ned had already been in King's Landing at that point, he would have known that those 3 hadn't been seen there for a very long time. I think he would also have known that Hightower was dispatched after Rhaegar and the prince returned without him, which would mean that the Lord Commander was probably with Lyanna. After Storm's End, Ned could have assumed that the other 2 were also with his sister and could have gone to Dayne's family asking if they knew anything - which they probably did.

[bent branch]

3 hours ago, Geddus said:

Ned had already been in King's Landing at that point, he would have known that those 3 hadn't been seen there for a very long time. I think he would also have known that Hightower was dispatched after Rhaegar and the prince returned without him, which would mean that the Lord Commander was probably with Lyanna. After Storm's End, Ned could have assumed that the other 2 were also with his sister and could have gone to Dayne's family asking if they knew anything - which they probably did.

You have just disproven your own argument. As you said, Ned had just been in KL. Ned found out the missing KG had not been there for a long time. He assumed they must have been at the siege (this indicates that he had been told nothing about their location of the KG while in KL). However, the book tells us that at this point Ned assumes the missing KG have been with Rhaella, Darry, and the children all this time. Ned assumes that they went into exile with Darry and the children. To assume that Ned is thinking otherwise is contrary to the book.

The most important thing to notice is that Ned is making assumptions about the whereabouts of the missing KG. Ned is not taking measures to correct his assumptions about the location of the missing KG because he is not looking for them. He is not associating the missing KG with his missing sister. Therefore, he would not go about looking for his sister by looking for the KG.

[Bael's Bastard]

21 hours ago, bent branch said:

Why the hell did Ned need to be secretive about what he was doing? Ned thought Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. Robert also thought Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. Ned was going to bring back his sister. Robert also wanted Lyanna brought back. It wasn't until Ned found a dying Lyanna and Jon that he needed to get secretive. Geesh.

Not sure if you are being serious, but Ned going to the tower with six people sounds like he was being secretive before he arrived at the tower.

[Geddus]

6 hours ago, bent branch said:

You have just disproven your own argument. As you said, Ned had just been in KL. Ned found out the missing KG had not been there for a long time. He assumed they must have been at the siege (this indicates that he had been told nothing about their location of the KG while in KL). However, the book tells us that at this point Ned assumes the missing KG have been with Rhaella, Darry, and the children all this time. Ned assumes that they went into exile with Darry and the children. To assume that Ned is thinking otherwise is contrary to the book.

The most important thing to notice is that Ned is making assumptions about the whereabouts of the missing KG. Ned is not taking measures to correct his assumptions about the location of the missing KG because he is not looking for them. He is not associating the missing KG with his missing sister. Therefore, he would not go about looking for his sister by looking for the KG.

I don't understand your point. There are people in King's Landing who know that those 3 knights did not go to Dragonstone and someone surely would have told Ned, why would he assume otherwise?

And where do the books tell us that Ned thinks the KG are with Rhaella after lifting the siege? If that's because of the order in which he poses his questions in his dream, we'll have to agree to disagree because I don't think that exchange should be taken so literally.

I also don't understand what makes you think that Ned is not associating the missing KG with Lyanna when logic would dictate the opposite.