Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

[Aetta]

Ashara is nice food for thought.  She did, after all, turn to a Stark instead of Barristan.  Had she known Barristan cared for her, maybe she would have told him where Lyanna was, and (from Barristan's POV) could have trusted him to be diplomatic with Arthur and his white brothers when approaching them at ToJ-whereas Ned went in there and tore the place down and killed the 3KG.

[bent branch]

47 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Not sure if you are being serious, but Ned going to the tower with six people sounds like he was being secretive before he arrived at the tower.

I am being completely serious. Although from various comments made I am beginning to understand why some people may think that Ned was being secretive when he totally wasn't. When Ned left KL after the sack, he was basically doing what we see Jaime doing in AFFC. He was mopping up leftover issues from the war. One of these issues was finding and bringing his sister home. Since Robert was claiming that the whole reason he started the war was to get Lyanna back, it was impossible for the mission to find and get Lyanna to be secret. I think the difference lies in the difference between the definitions of the words secret and discreet.

The definition of secret is: adjective: not known or seen or not meant to be known or seen by others; or noun: something that is kept or meant to be kept unknown or unseen by others*

The definition of discreet is: careful and circumspect in one's speech or actions, especially in order to avoid causing offense or to gain an advantage; intentionally unobtrusive* 

When Ned went looking for Lyanna, he didn't know what he was going to find. In order to control the story coming out about the circumstances in which Lyanna was found, Ned decided to take only six men who he trusted to be discreet and not gossip about what they saw. Ned was trying to preserve as much of Lyanna's dignity as possible. This decision of Ned's is evidence that he didn't expect to find the KG there or to have to fight to get Lyanna. Remember, these men were chosen for their discretion, not fighting ability. Ethan Glover and Howland Reed are proof of that. To summarize, everyone knew Ned was going to find Lyanna, few knew what circumstances she was found in. So, I completely reject the claim that Ned was being secretive because it is inaccurate and misleading.

Another idea that is inaccurate and misleading is the idea that Ned was looking for the missing KG in order to find his sister. Indeed, the fever dream makes it clear that Ned thought the missing KG had gone to Dragonstone with the queen and Viserys. Ned was completely and unpleasantly surprised to find them with Lyanna. I have included the text so that people can see for themselves that (1) Ned thought they had gone to Dragonstone and (2) Ned did not go to the places he went in order to find the missing KG. He merely mentions places he had been where he was surprised not to see them.
 

Quote

 

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"Woe to the Ursurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jamie slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," said Ser Gerold, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in the seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the seige," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all the knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend so easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained Ser Gerold.

 

It is so obvious that Ned thought the KG went to Dragonstone that I don't really know how to respond to those claim that Ned knew they were at ToJ.  Those people are simply wrong. The only real argument that could be made is that the fever dream was confused. However, in real life Ned took men who weren't up to the task of taking on the KG. This is the verification that Ned didn't know they would be there.

In order to make a reasonable guess as to who told Ned where Lyanna was there were three variables needing to be met.

1)  The informant had to be close enough to Aerys' court to have the chance to find out the information.

2)  The informant had to survive the war so they could pass on the information.

3)  The informant needed to be in a place where they could tell Ned

4)  The informant needed to be willing to tell Ned

There were only three people who fit the first two variables: Barristan, Jaime, and Varys.

There were only two people who fit the second two variables: Jaime and Varys.

There is only one person left who could fit the third variable: Varys.

 

*Thanks to Dictionary.com for definitions.

 

 

[bent branch]

50 minutes ago, Geddus said:

I don't understand your point. There are people in King's Landing who know that those 3 knights did not go to Dragonstone and someone surely would have told Ned, why would he assume otherwise?

And where do the books tell us that Ned thinks the KG are with Rhaella after lifting the siege? If that's because of the order in which he poses his questions in his dream, we'll have to agree to disagree because I don't think that exchange should be taken so literally.

I also don't understand what makes you think that Ned is not associating the missing KG with Lyanna when logic would dictate the opposite.

Your claim: People in KL could have told Ned that the KG didn't go to Dragonstone. Why this doesn't make the point you want it to make:  People in KL could have also told Ned that the KG weren't at Storm's End, but they didn't.

The only points this makes is that Ned didn't find out where the KG had gone in KL and he wasn't even trying to find out.

We are told that Ned thought the KG had gone to Dragonstone in the fever dream. Why do you need to be told again? I'm not trying to be a bitch here. I really don't understand the need to be told this again.

There is nothing logical about associating the KG with Lyanna. As far as Ned knows Lyanna is not royalty. Since he had absolutely no knowledge about the condition of his sister, he would have no reason to believe that Aerys or Rhaegar would order them to continue guarding her. Seriously, try to forget what you know and then try to make a logical argument of why they would be with Lyanna. Try to see it from Ned's POV.

 

[El Dude]

@bent branch Basically I think you're mostly right with the info we have at hand.

Ned certainly wanted to be the first one to discretely find Lyanna, this was not a secret. (Good clear up with the slippery language.) He remained in King's Landing until Robert healed enough to travel and arrive at KL and then left becuase he was disguested with the Lannisters and was angry with Robert. He forced Tyrell and Redwyne to bend the knee out of duty to Stannis and he was also likely seeking a distraction from KL, Robert, and the Lannisters... and perhaps he needed leads on where to find Lyanna.

You're probably right that he was curious about the missing Kingsguard, but was not necessarily seeking them, just Lyanna. However, in the dream he does not express a single ounce of surprise at finding the last three KG at the ToJ. So the thought may have occured to him that the KG could be guarding Lyanna and Rheagar's heir and he would find them when he found Lyanna. If he had that thought, he probably rejected it because it would be a worse case senario that he was likely unwilling to deal with and he didn't bring any highly esteemed warriors, just trusted, discrete friends.

Maybe I missed it, but could you provide me evidence that Aerys knew where ToJ was after Rhaegar returned? Because I don't think he ever knew. Only that Ser Gerold left and Rhaegar returned. The World book said pretty clearly that no one knew where Rheagar was not even Aerys. I don't find it so unlikely that it remained a secret and that Rhaegar kept his lips sealed after returning.

The reason I don't buy the Jamie, Barristan, or Varys hypothesis is because we've seen inside their heads when they were thinking of Ned (except Varys), and GRRM never gave even a hint that they knew about ToJ and then told Ned. This would be something that would come up. And when Ned sees Varys he would naturally think about a tip-off from the Spider but never even had a thought or feeling of gratidute toward Varys, or unease about Vary's knowledge of Jon.

I think (several) part(s) of this puzzle is (are) being kept from us and will only be revealed later because there's more to the ToJ than R+L=J. During the last episode of the show...

Spoiler

...they blurred out what Lyanna named her son. That name probably means something important (lip readers have said that it might be Aegon or Aemon, etc.), and GRRM confirmed that Ned gave Jon his name, likely after Jon Arryn.

I think we'll have to wait for the next book, or the final book, to answer this riddle. Although, I think it relates to Ashara Dayne's suicide or apparent suicide.

Until the mysteries of Ashara Dayne and the mystery of why Dany had a Lemon tree in Braavos, I'll keep my tinfoil hat on, thank you very much!

[Macgregor of the North]

16 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Not sure if you are being serious, but Ned going to the tower with six people sounds like he was being secretive before he arrived at the tower.

Exactly. I'm not quite sure why @bent branch can't grasp this. 

Ned was 100% being secretive. He had an army at his disposal at Storms End but chose to take six trusted Northerners. This indicates he was being secretive in his intentions.

Its perfectly reasonable to assume Ned has figured out to an extent what is going on here and the less people know about his intentions the better. He did not want Robert knowing the full details of what he was going to find out concerning Lyanna, hence the small number of his company. All his own Northern bannermen.

Very secretive.

[Geddus]

9 hours ago, bent branch said:

Your claim: People in KL could have told Ned that the KG didn't go to Dragonstone. Why this doesn't make the point you want it to make:  People in KL could have also told Ned that the KG weren't at Storm's End, but they didn't.

The only points this makes is that Ned didn't find out where the KG had gone in KL and he wasn't even trying to find out.

We are told that Ned thought the KG had gone to Dragonstone in the fever dream. Why do you need to be told again? I'm not trying to be a bitch here. I really don't understand the need to be told this again.

There is nothing logical about associating the KG with Lyanna. As far as Ned knows Lyanna is not royalty. Since he had absolutely no knowledge about the condition of his sister, he would have no reason to believe that Aerys or Rhaegar would order them to continue guarding her. Seriously, try to forget what you know and then try to make a logical argument of why they would be with Lyanna. Try to see it from Ned's POV.

 

No, people in King's Landing could not have told Ned about who was or wasn't at Storm's End, how could they? But there were people, like Jaime, who had seen Rhaella leave with Viserys and Darry and who would know Dayne and the others weren't with them, and hadn't been seen in the capital for months.

How do you know Ned didn't try to find out where the KG had gone? There's nothing about that in the books.

No, we are told that Ned thinks the KG should be on Dragonstone, if their king is there, yet they aren't. And he already knew that, he had to, he had been in King's Landing. I think Ned is giving them an out in that exchange, by the way, but that's for another topic.

On the contrary, I think it's very logical: Dayne and Whent were Rhaegar's bodyguards, it seems that's common knowledge, they went everywhere with him and they were with him when he disappeared with Lyanna. Now they're nowhere to be found, I don't think it would be a stretch for Ned to assume they're with his sister. And I think he knew why, his choice of companions makes me think he figured out what he would find in that tower.

[Macgregor of the North]

Ned is not completely surprised to find the KG there. I'm honestly not sure why people think that.

The fever dream text is there to show us that Ned is trying to bait the 3 KG into admitting why exactly they are there and not in the other locations mentioned but they are not taking the bait. 

There is a clever little game going on here between Ned and the KG. Ned has figured out what is going on and they know that Ned knows why they are there. 

The thing is though, they have made their mind up they are not giving anything away to Ned, and Ned has made his mind up that he is willing to take it by force should he have to.

Hence Arthur's sad smile and his comment, followed by Neds "now it ends". He was fully prepared to have to fight for Lyanna, he sort of expects it because "this is no ordinary three". But he tried briefly to get them to at least admit why they were there, even though he knows full well. 

Basically, Ned Stark had figured out the KG would be there. He had been piecing the puzzle together in his head all along that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar and that the three missing KG that nobody has saw in ages may well be exactly where they were, doing exactly what they were doing.

It's not rocket science really to figure it out.

So when Ned sees them, he's not actually saying I honestly thought you would be all those places, he's possibly even goading them to admit to their true task, protecting an unborn child under Rhaegars orders, which Ned likely suspects anyway.

Note on Neds Storms End comment. This proves we shouldn't take the fever dream text as too literal because if you think about it. Why the hell would three KG members be involved in a siege of a castle held by Stannis? That is nothing even remotely like their duties, it's nonsense to think it is. Ned is basically saying you guys should have known the game is up by now and gave it up, not that he actually believes they should have been at the siege with the Tyrell's and Redwynes.

And also. 

Note on the Dragonstone comment. The only place Ned could have found that out is KL, before Storms End. The order in which Ned says the locations is not even that important. What is important is what Ned is telling them. You could have been any place, but you are here, where I suspected you would be, why don't you own up to it and tell me. No? Your not going to do that are you, well let's get down to business because I'm having my sister back whether you like or or not.

[tugela]

On ‎10‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 0:36 AM, bent branch said:

??????????????????????????? Uh, no.

Edited to add stuff so it's no so rude. If you remember one of the stories about why Robert's Rebellion happened was because Robert was trying to save his betrothed. There is no way anyone was going to behead Lyanna.

His argument was that she had been abducted and raped. If it subsequently turned out that she had run away with Rhaegar so she didn't have to marry Robert, and had a child to boot, it would have been a deep insult to his manhood. It would have made him a laughing stock, and as king he would not be able to tolerate that. He would have had no option but to execute her for treason if he wanted to keep his crown.

Her dieing was very convenient for him. He could continue his pretence that she was abducted (although it seems like most people don't believe that), and he would be spared the uncomfortable prospect of having to publically deal with her treason.

Anyone who upset that official version with allegations of something else, or attempted to cover the truth up and then bragged about it, would have placed him in a similar situation. They would have to be executed for treason. No doubt all concerned were well aware of this, so they sensibly kept their mouths shut.

[bent branch]

1 hour ago, tugela said:

His argument was that she had been abducted and raped. If it subsequently turned out that she had run away with Rhaegar so she didn't have to marry Robert, and had a child to boot, it would have been a deep insult to his manhood. It would have made him a laughing stock, and as king he would not be able to tolerate that. He would have had no option but to execute her for treason if he wanted to keep his crown.

Her dieing was very convenient for him. He could continue his pretence that she was abducted (although it seems like most people don't believe that), and he would be spared the uncomfortable prospect of having to publically deal with her treason.

Anyone who upset that official version with allegations of something else, or attempted to cover the truth up and then bragged about it, would have placed him in a similar situation. They would have to be executed for treason. No doubt all concerned were well aware of this, so they sensibly kept their mouths shut.

So Aerys had to go because he killed Ned's father and brother, but it is completely okay for Robert to kill Ned's sister because she wasn't into him. I mean Lyanna wasn't even Robert's wife and Robert wasn't king when she rejected him. Cersei insulted Robert's manhood all the time and she still had her head after fifteen years. Honor killings are not a thing in Westeros. I'm so fed up with the silliness of this thread that I'm trying to pull myself back, but surely you can see the insanity of what you are suggesting.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Major  crackpot / tinfoil theory , it was RHAEGER . People has often wondered why Robert thinks  Rhaegar was raping Lyanna over and over again , he named the place where he was keeping Lyanna, the Tower of Joy . The name sounds like a brothel  to me. It was a common custom hurl insult at an opponent during a duel . Originally it could have been called the Young Dragon' s Tower or Tower of the Torrentine , as long as they knew the original name , most of the lords would know where to go .

[Kingmonkey]

On 21/10/2016 at 1:37 AM, bent branch said:

 Indeed, the fever dream makes it clear that Ned thought the missing KG had gone to Dragonstone with the queen and Viserys. Ned was completely and unpleasantly surprised to find them with Lyanna.

How do you account for Ned claiming "...the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all the knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them", if he thought they had gone to Dragonstone? 

You're reading that dialogue too literally if you can't see the alternative. The places that Ned claims he thought they might be are all places that duty and honour imply they ought to have been. Yet they were not there. Ned isn't really idly listing the places he'd previously assumed they might be, he's trying to get them to admit what it is they were actually doing that kept them away from those places. The replies they give reinforce the point, as they proclaim themselves true with each challenge, yet continue to refuse to explain what it was they were doing that overrode their duty to be at those other places. 

 

 

[Jenny of Dorne]

On 15. 10. 2016 at 2:51 AM, tugela said:

The tower itself would have belonged to a knight, who in turn would have been sworn to the local lord.

IIRC Ned tore down the tower, for the cairns. If it belonged to a knight (could be his only property) or even the Fowlers or any other house, would he do it, just like that? I always had this idea on mind that the ToJ belonged to the crown, or to Arthur Dayne personally, and that's how Ned knew where to look for Lyanna. It might have been a known refuge place/summer house of Rhaegar for many years.

If not that and the place was really super secret, I believe it is likely that all the members of the KG knew where their missing brothers were (Gerold Hightower apparently knew where to look for Rhaegar after all) and I am sure that Aerys would have Varys find out the location as well via his birds (whether Varys told Aerys is a different matter). Rhaegar's squires could have known as well. So, the squires are missing or dead and the only two remaining KG both have POV chapters where they think about Ned or Rhaegar but make no mention of telling Ned where to find Rhaegar's secret place. That does not prove anything, of course. However, Barristan was badly injured after the battle of the Trident and Jaime not on friendly terms with Ned. Would either of them have opportunity to tell Ned where to look for Lyanna?

That leaves Varys. He did not have to speak to Ned directly. We know he can dress up as a gaoler. This is just a guess, but as such, couldn't he have passed the information to Ethan Glover, who was a prisoner? I assume there are dozens of explanations how Varys could have let Ned know where Lyanna was without letting him know the source of the information. If that was his wish.

In any case, Ned's expedition does seem secretive - only six companions, all of them of Ned's age, probably trustworthy and very close to him - so I believe he was at least afraid or suspecting that he would find something else than Robert expects. It seems plausible that after Robert and Ned had an argument over Rhaegar's children and Ned left to look for Lyanna, it was on Robert's order (he was king after all, and still betrothed to the girl, so she had to be found anyway). However it is possible that Ned knew a little bit more about Lyanna's situation, eg. from Benjen. After all, if Robert had any suspicion, wouldn't he send a proper search party to make sure the problem (possible Targaryen progeny) is dealt with?

But let's not forgot that Ned and his relatively small group might not have known exactly where ToJ was, or what to look for anyway, and being on a sort of an enemy land (Dorne) they did not want to attract unwanted attention. That is a very reasonable explanation for the small party I believe, even if you don't believe the arguments above. 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 23/10/2016 at 7:25 AM, Kingmonkey said:

How do you account for Ned claiming "...the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all the knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them", if he thought they had gone to Dragonstone? 

You're reading that dialogue too literally if you can't see the alternative. The places that Ned claims he thought they might be are all places that duty and honour imply they ought to have been. Yet they were not there. Ned isn't really idly listing the places he'd previously assumed they might be, he's trying to get them to admit what it is they were actually doing that kept them away from those places. The replies they give reinforce the point, as they proclaim themselves true with each challenge, yet continue to refuse to explain what it was they were doing that overrode their duty to be at those other places. 

 

 

I think we can be sure Bent branch has taken the fever dream in the most literal sense possible and backs his ideas on the strength of that. 

I have explained what's going on like you have but they seem to have abandoned their post in regards to debating it further.

I will personally take that as a small victory and that BB indeed has no more to say on the matter. 

It is not case closed on who told Ned where to go, that info will hopefully come in the books. But my money is still on Ashara being involved with the passing of information.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Jenny of Dorne

Quote

It seems plausible that after Robert and Ned had an argument over Rhaegar's children and Ned left to look for Lyanna, it was on Robert's order (

This is not how it happened though.

After the heated argument Ned goes to Storms End to lift the siege. Its probably more possible that if Ned knew where Lyanna was from info given at Kings landing, he would have went there after storming off in anger to get his sister and left the siege to some other lord, which there was many. It didn't have to be Ned who lifted the siege.

I believe Ned found out Lyannas location later. There's no concrete proof anywhere that points to Rhaegar openly talking about Lyannas location while he's in KL for Varys birds to hear, and that's the only way Varys could know. Rhaegar has no reason to even talk about the Tower at KL. 

He knows Lyanna is protected, it's time for him to train levies for the war. That's his focus, not spill his secrets idly around KL.

[bent branch]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I think we can be sure Bent branch has taken the fever dream in the most literal sense possible and backs his ideas on the strength of that. 

I have explained what's going on like you have but they seem to have abandoned their post in regards to debating it further.

I will personally take that as a small victory and that BB indeed has no more to say on the matter. 

It is not case closed on who told Ned where to go, that info will hopefully come in the books. But my money is still on Ashara being involved with the passing of information.

Hahaha. I have gone back to the books to gather evidence (which I am finding). I'll answer when I'm ready.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

Hahaha. I have gone back to the books to gather evidence (which I am finding). I'll answer when I'm ready.

You won't find any evidence that Ned could have found out that the KG never went to Dragonstone at any other time than after the sack, at Kings landing, before Storms End. 

And you wont find any evidence that the the KG had any reason to be at Storms End, because they had no reason, Ned knows this. With all the places he is mentioning he is basically giving the KG an opportunity to admit why they are there, and not other places they 'could' have been, as Ned already strongly suspects their reason, and is not surprised to find them there at all. To me, personally, this is quite obvious.

You have taken the fever dream too literal I believe and I'm quite sure GRRM has warned us against that in a sense in an SSM:

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

[Jenny of Dorne]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Jenny of Dorne

This is not how it happened though.

After the heated argument Ned goes to Storms End to lift the siege. Its probably more possible that if Ned knew where Lyanna was from info given at Kings landing, he would have went there after storming off in anger to get his sister and left the siege to some other lord, which there was many. It didn't have to be Ned who lifted the siege.

I believe Ned found out Lyannas location later. There's no concrete proof anywhere that points to Rhaegar openly talking about Lyannas location while he's in KL for Varys birds to hear, and that's the only way Varys could know. Rhaegar has no reason to even talk about the Tower at KL. 

He knows Lyanna is protected, it's time for him to train levies for the war. That's his focus, not spill his secrets idly around KL.

Yes, you're right, my bad, the timeline got mixed up in my head. So the informer could have been at Storm's End, too. I take your point about the part in bold, however my understanding has been that Ned went to Storm's End not just to put a long distance between him and the furious Robert (he could have gone anywhere if so) but out of duty. Either it was Robert's command or just Ned knowing that the right thing is to finish the war first and look for Lyanna later. Knowing Ned's personality, this makes sense to me.

Btw, Varys definitely could have had other means of finding out where Rhaegar went hiding than what you say. There probably was some connection between Rhaegar and the tower before (he did not just take Lyanna to a random place), so it might have been a matter of a right guess. The birds could have overheard members of the KG talking. Some people always go to the Master of Whisperes to tell him tales. He could have sent a secret search party. He could even have been open about the search, offer a reward and all, we just don't have enough information, do we? (I am not just inventing explanations out of nothing, the king MUST have wanted to find Rhaegar if he did not know where he was, so what does Aerys do first - turn to Varys whom he still trusts.)

[Macgregor of the North]

20 minutes ago, Jenny of Dorne said:

Yes, you're right, my bad, the timeline got mixed up in my head. So the informer could have been at Storm's End, too. I take your point about the part in bold, however my understanding has been that Ned went to Storm's End not just to put a long distance between him and the furious Robert (he could have gone anywhere if so) but out of duty. Either it was Robert's command or just Ned knowing that the right thing is to finish the war first and look for Lyanna later. Knowing Ned's personality, this makes sense to me.

Btw, Varys definitely could have had other means of finding out where Rhaegar went hiding than what you say. There probably was some connection between Rhaegar and the tower before (he did not just take Lyanna to a random place), so it might have been a matter of a right guess. The birds could have overheard members of the KG talking. Some people always go to the Master of Whisperes to tell him tales. He could have sent a secret search party. He could even have been open about the search, offer a reward and all, we just don't have enough information, do we? (I am not just inventing explanations out of nothing, the king MUST have wanted to find Rhaegar if he did not know where he was, so what does Aerys do first - turn to Varys whom he still trusts.)

The informer could have even told Ned after Storms End. Ned could have turned south to Dorne on a hunch with his trusted friends with the sole intention of finding Lyanna. He may have even headed for Summerhall for all we know as that's the place that Rhaegar is most associated with. It's on this journey though that I believe Ned somehow receives the info from Ashara Dayne where to find his sister. The 'how' is something I'm hoping will be explained in the next books.

We know from Jaime that Rhaegar could not be found. Varys was spying on Jaime day and night in KL, Jaime says nothing ever about Varys knowing anything of Rhaegars whereabouts, or sending search parties that yielded up any successful results etc and Jaime has observed quite a lot of people's comings and goings in the capital at that time as we see in his POV's  and there's no hint of it ever. 

We know Gerold is sent to find Rhaegar and bring him back. How he knew where to find him is up for speculation also. He never 'had' to told by Varys, he too could have found out by some other means. 

The list of ways you think Varys could have known don't really make it anymore possible that he did know and told Ned. It doesn't always have to be Varys who knows everything. 

I certainly hope it's cleared up on page somewhere and not just left as one of those never explained mysteries.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Jenny of Dorne

Quote

I take your point about the part in bold, however my understanding has been that Ned went to Storm's End not just to put a long distance between him and the furious Robert (he could have gone anywhere if so) but out of duty. Either it was Robert's command or just Ned knowing that the right thing is to finish the war first and look for Lyanna later. Knowing Ned's personality, this makes sense to me.

I hadn't replied to this part in my last post.

I definitely get where your coming from, I can see Ned doing it out of duty as well. But I can't help but remember Ned throwing the position of Kings hand back in Roberts face and making plans to return to Winterfell at once. And this was over a similar topic, the murder of children. 

Now after the sack, the bodies were fresh kills, wrapped in Lannister cloaks. Ned would have been furious, possibly more furious than we could ever imagine him. More furious than when he resigns as hand and is more than willing to just head back North on the next available ship, and that is just after discussions on whether they should kill Dany.

By this logic, I think it's possible that if Ned knew of Lyannas whereabouts after the sack of KL and his fight with Robert, he would have went to her immediately and left the siege to another Lord.

Its not like the responsibility fell just to Ned to lift the siege, there were other Lords. But we agree that Ned is a dutiful man and would have wanted to end the war completely and would have taken it upon himself to do so.

But, if going by my example above, there is a chance that if Ned knew of Lyannas location while at KL and after his and Roberts fight, then he would have threw the responsibility to lift the siege right in Roberts face just as he did with the hands badge of office in AGOT and headed to retrieve his sister. 

There is precedent for that kind of behaviour, even for honourable duty bound Ned Stark. 

So, I personally think we can use this as a piece of evidence for Ned finding out later, after Kings Landing. Just my view on it.

 

[Geddus]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

We know Gerold is sent to find Rhaegar and bring him back. How he knew where to find him is up for speculation also. He never 'had' to told by Varys, he too could have found out by some other means. 

He probably knew, or at least suspected, Dayne and Whent were with the prince, he was their Lord Commander after all: he couldn't ask them but he could talk to their families and see if they knew anything. Ned could have done the same thing - and it all comes back to Ashara and the Daynes, who I'm pretty sure know something about that whole affair.

I doubt Varys told Hightower, or anyone really, because I don't see how he could have known.