Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

[devilish]

I doubt that he went there as a trip with his best mates. Someone must have told him about it.

Which makes me wonder who was this guy? Why would he do that?

Also note that Eddard took Reed (he's a close friend but he's not a great fighter), a Glover (a house whose very close to the Stark) and a couple of nobodies. Considering opposition, it would have been wiser to take someone like the Greatjon or even Gregor Clegane (surely Tywin would have allowed him to join Eddard for this quest) and yet he seem to have taken people from his inner circle. Maybe Eddard knew what was going on and what to expect?

[Macgregor of the North]

I believe Eddard found out/figured out that Lyanna had eloped and it was no kidnapping. I think its possible that on the way to the siege of Storms End, Ethan Glover, (now out of captivity or hiding) may have confided in Ned that Brandon may have even suspected the same and was just as mad at Lyanna when he rode to Kings Landing as he was with Rhaegar.

Ned couldnt trust these feelings with nobody but northerners he trusted 100% so when he found out Lyannas location he took those men we hear of.

How he found out is tricky. Its likely after the sack and away from Kings landing because he would have just went there first and left the lifting of the siege to another lord. He maybe found out at Storms End, or caught word they were in the 'south', or 'Dorne' but lacked the location so maybe he seeked out Ashara Dayne(who i believe knew) and she told him. Either way it was very secretive as i believe Ned had a very good idea of what he was possibly going to find there and there was no way he wanted that information getting back to Robert.

Its worth noting, Ashara seems to be absent from the sack of Kings Landing.

[Macgregor of the North]

Other ideas I have toyed with are that Ned went to Summerhall as it's a known haunt of Rhaegars and 'somehow' found something more detailed location wise there.

He went to Griffins roost the (ex) home of one of Rhaegars closest confidants who would all be now under Roberts power and possibly easy to squeeze information from, (if they had any).

Last but not least, Bran gives Ned the info through some kind of greenseer vision. The 'how' that happens I am not sure of but I suppose we have to keep the possibility open given the way the story is heading in Brans arc.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

31 minutes ago, devilish said:

I doubt that he went there as a trip with his best mates. Someone must have told him about it.

Which makes me wonder who was this guy? Why would he do that?

Also note that Eddard took Reed (he's a close friend but he's not a great fighter), a Glover (a house whose very close to the Stark) and a couple of nobodies. Considering opposition, it would have been wiser to take someone like the Greatjon or even Gregor Clegane (surely Tywin would have allowed him to join Eddard for this quest) and yet he seem to have taken people from his inner circle. Maybe Eddard knew what was going on and what to expect?

Ned took his friends with him, men he trusted. He probably hardly knew the Greatjon and certainly didn't trust Gregor Clegane (he hated him ffs). Those 'nobodies' were Willam Dustin, the Lord of the House Brandon was warded to, Martyn Cassel, Jory's father who was likely captain of guards in Winterfell at the time, Mark Ryswell, from the House where Brandon spent a lot of time when warded to the Dustins, and Theo Wull, we don't know anything about but we do know Ned's grandmother was from the Mountain Clans and that Ned had good relations with the Mountain Clans. We don't know anything about their fighting skills either, they might have been the best the North had to offer at the time, or they might just be nobodies, as you say. So yes, I think Ned knew what was going on and took people with him he trusted so that whatever happened, he could keep the real situation a secret.

I agree with Macgregor of the North that Ashara Dayne probably told Ned btw, which could have been the reason for her suicide (if that is what happened).

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Other ideas I have toyed with are that Ned went to Summerhall as it's a known haunt of Rhaegars and 'somehow' found something more detailed location wise there.

He went to Griffins roost the (ex) home of one of Rhaegars closest confidants who would all be now under Roberts power and possibly easy to squeeze information from, (if they had any).

Last but not least, Bran gives Ned the info through some kind of greenseer vision. The 'how' that happens I am not sure of but I suppose we have to keep the possibility open given the way the story is heading in Brans arc.

These are also interesting theories, although I don't think JonCon was as deep in Rhaegar's inner circle as he'd like (no pun intended).

[Macgregor of the North]

10 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

These are also interesting theories, although I don't think JonCon was as deep in Rhaegar's inner circle as he'd like (no pun intended).

Haha poor Jon Con. 

It does seem plausible Ned would try the home of Connington for info(if he never already had the info he needed) as it is not very far south of Storms End. Not sure he would have gotten exact details though.

If he keeps picking up tidbits of info along the road south though he is basically in Dorne anyway so Ashara being involved becomes more likely as the direct source.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

17 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Haha poor Jon Con. 

It does seem plausible Ned would try the home of Connington for info(if he never already had the info he needed) as it is not very far south of Storms End. Not sure he would have gotten exact details though.

If he keeps picking up tidbits of info along the road south though he is basically in Dorne anyway so Ashara being involved becomes more likely as the direct source.

Someone who might have more info on Lyanna's whereabouts is Richard Lonmouth. For some reason, he seems to be important to the story. We hear that he was Rhaegar's squire, but we also see him hanging out with Robert at the Tourney of Harrenhall. We don't know which side he picked at Robert's Rebellion, but either way he seems to have survived (if he is indeed Lem Lemoncloak). If he helped Rhaegar to elope with Lyanna, he might have told Ned what was going on and where to find Lyanna after Rhaegar died and Robert gloated over Rhaenys' and Aegon's deaths. Pure speculation though...

[devilish]

46 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Ned took his friends with him, men he trusted. He probably hardly knew the Greatjon and certainly didn't trust Gregor Clegane (he hated him ffs). Those 'nobodies' were Willam Dustin, the Lord of the House Brandon was warded to, Martyn Cassel, Jory's father who was likely captain of guards in Winterfell at the time, Mark Ryswell, from the House where Brandon spent a lot of time when warded to the Dustins, and Theo Wull, we don't know anything about but we do know Ned's grandmother was from the Mountain Clans and that Ned had good relations with the Mountain Clans. We don't know anything about their fighting skills either, they might have been the best the North had to offer at the time, or they might just be nobodies, as you say. So yes, I think Ned knew what was going on and took people with him he trusted so that whatever happened, he could keep the real situation a secret.

I agree with Macgregor of the North that Ashara Dayne probably told Ned btw, which could have been the reason for her suicide (if that is what happened).

To clarify 'nobodies' is in terms of their ability of swordmanship

[Macgregor of the North]

10 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Someone who might have more info on Lyanna's whereabouts is Richard Lonmouth. For some reason, he seems to be important to the story. We hear that he was Rhaegar's squire, but we also see him hanging out with Robert at the Tourney of Harrenhall. We don't know which side he picked at Robert's Rebellion, but either way he seems to have survived (if he is indeed Lem Lemoncloak). If he helped Rhaegar to elope with Lyanna, he might have told Ned what was going on and where to find Lyanna after Rhaegar died and Robert gloated over Rhaenys' and Aegon's deaths. Pure speculation though...

Yup, cant rule it out. You know its funny, i began a thread not long ago on this very topic where a poster jumped on and pushed this Lonmouth theory with quite a passion. Now, i wouldnt have been too bothered by it as its plausible but the theory stated that he was part of Stannis' small garrison inside Storms End for the siege and when the siege was lifted Lonmouth strolled out and just told Ned where to find Lyanna.

The idea that an ex squire of Rhaegar Targaryen was inside Storms End under siege with Stannis Baratheon for a whole year was something i just could not grasp. I know Lonmouth was a Stormlander but Storms End was never his home and how he ended up there was something the poster could not give a reason for so i think it very very unlikely.

But, he may have told Ned under different circumstances certainly.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

To clarify 'nobodies' is in terms of their ability of swordmanship

But, as I said, we don't know if they're 'nobodies' in terms of swordsmanship. And you took apart Ethan Glover and Howland Reed as if they made more sense than the rest, which I don't think is the case. I think all of them were close friends to Ned. If there is one person in his group we can be fairly certain of being a 'nobody', it's Howland Reed. And Ethan Glover spent the last year in a dungeon. If anything, THESE TWO are the ones Ned should have replaced for better fighters, if he didn't need people he could trust.

[devilish]

By the time of Robert’s rebellion, Rhaegar’s relationship with Aerys was already strained. The king had made some despicable remarks about Rhaegar’s daughter, he didn’t trusted the crown prince in Harrenhal and went on dangling Elia’s threat to the Martells, even though she was Rhaegar’s wife. Rhaegar on the other hand made it obvious with Jamie that a change is necessary and will be done after he won the war. Considering how much Aerys loved control and how paranoid he was, I doubt that the crown prince would have told Lyanna’s location to anyone in KL. This would include his own wife (who surely had all the motivation to spill the beans to either the king who could decide whether she lives or dies at any time or to her own brother). 
Another house who would have been pretty interested with Lyanna for all the wrong reasons is House Martell. Because of this love game, Doran Martell was threatened, he had lost his sister and her children and most of his army was wiped out. I am pretty sure he would have loved to get his fingers on Lyanna and her child. I doubt he would have hurt them (Dorran is not Aerys). However they would surely act as a pawn to score points with the new king or as an alternative king in case the Robert decides to bully himself into Martell territory. Lyanna’s boy was Eddard’s nephew and therefore he was bound in blood to protect him. That would have dragged the Tullys, the Royalists and possibly the Arryns into the argument. Therefore, since the Martells knew nothing about Lyanna’s location then we can assume that Elia didn’t know either

I doubt that Elia would know where Lyanna was. If she knew she would probably spill the beans to either the king (to return to his good grace) or to Dorran. I also find the Ashara’s theory is a bit weak too. Ashara was both the queen’s lady in waiting and a Dayne (ie Martell’s bannermen), which increased the chances of her spilling the beans to the queen. Her brother on the other hand was fiercely loyal to Rhaegar and would therefore distance himself from Ashara to avoid having her entangled in this Aerys vs Rhaegar’s fight. 

My suspects would be

a-    Someone whose got a reputation to know everything in KL ie Varys. He’s got the motive (ie a fracture between Robert and the Northern alliance would weaken the kingdom and pave the way back to the Targs) and the spy net to unearth such secrets

b-     Someone from House Fowler. They are the Boltons equivalent at Dorne and the tower of joy is located in their own land. Let us face it irrespective who won the war the link between Martells and the crown was bound to get damaged. Dorran would be expected to bend the knee to either a love rat or someone who dethroned or even killed his sister. We also know that the Martells are renowned for being short tempered. A rebellion was probable and once the Martells were beaten a new Lord Paramount would need to be appointed. Who is more suited to the role than someone who lent the tower of joy to the future Crown Prince/someone who aided the king’s best mate in finding his beloved his sister and the King’s future wife?

[DigUpHerBones]

this one is easy...Bran

it is certainly not going to be some obscure character that has 2 references in the entire series...i.e, Lonmouth

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

But, as I said, we don't know if they're 'nobodies' in terms of swordsmanship. And you took apart Ethan Glover and Howland Reed as if they made more sense than the rest, which I don't think is the case. I think all of them were close friends to Ned. If there is one person in his group we can be fairly certain of being a 'nobody', it's Howland Reed. And Ethan Glover spent the last year in a dungeon. If anything, THESE TWO are the ones Ned should have replaced for better fighters, if he didn't need people he could trust.

There were some decent fighters at the time. Some lived to the tell the tale (Selmy, the Greatjon, Jamie, Robert) while other died (ex Sir Arthur). If they were great swordsmen then they would have been remembered. 

I think that Eddard knew exactly what to expect, hence why he rushed to Dorne when the wisest thing to do was to wait and breach Dorne's borders as head of an army and why he took a small group of close friends instead of some of the finest fighters the rebellion could provide (which would also include Robert B). I also believe that Rhaegar trusted neither Aerys nor the Martells (for good reason) on this issue. Therefore the ones knowing of Lyanna's locations were

a- people whom Rhaegar trusted them blindly (Arthur Dayne )
b- people who wanted to score points with the Prince and weren't particularly fond of either Aerys or the Martells (ex the Fowlers)
c- People who knew about Lyanna's location without Rhaegar's consent (ex Varys?)

[Bael's Bastard]

4 hours ago, devilish said:

I doubt that he went there as a trip with his best mates. Someone must have told him about it.

Which makes me wonder who was this guy? Why would he do that?

Also note that Eddard took Reed (he's a close friend but he's not a great fighter), a Glover (a house whose very close to the Stark) and a couple of nobodies. Considering opposition, it would have been wiser to take someone like the Greatjon or even Gregor Clegane (surely Tywin would have allowed him to join Eddard for this quest) and yet he seem to have taken people from his inner circle. Maybe Eddard knew what was going on and what to expect?

Ethan Glover seems to be a good possibility. He was Brandon Stark's squire, and was the only one of Brandon's companions to survive when he went to King's Landing demanding that Rhaegar come out and die. Ethan Glover was also one of Ned's six companions at the Tower of Joy.

[devilish]

Just now, Bael's Bastard said:

Ethan Glover seems to be a good possibility. He was Brandon Stark's squire, and was the only one of Brandon's companions to survive when he went to King's Landing demanding that Rhaegar come out and die. Ethan Glover was also one of Ned's six companions at the Tower of Joy.

But why on earth would Rhaegar spill the beans about Lyanna's location with Ethan?

[DigUpHerBones]

Quote

But why on earth would Rhaegar spill the beans about Lyanna's location with Ethan?

exactly...if he didn't tell JonCon, he didn't tell anyone other than the 3KG, IMO...that wouldn't match with his character

[Macgregor of the North]

I had thought Varys plenty, but I re read exchanges between him and Ned, like their first meeting when Ned becomes hand, and their talks of the cells and I honestly don't think there is any hint whatsoever that these two have shared info between them in a secretive manner(such as Lyannas whereabouts) in the past. I wholeheartedly can not see Varys as the man.

I would assume Ned would have went straight to the Tower if he found out at KL also. Not the siege first.

Ethan is a great bet for the man who helps Ned understand Lyanna was actually willing and involved possibly, although he lacks the location, then it's a case of just getting the location from somebody , either at the siege, or sometime not long after.

 

[devilish]

Just now, DigUpHerBones said:

exactly...if he didn't tell JonCon, he didn't tell anyone other than the 3KG, IMO...that wouldn't match with his character

Well surely he had to also tell Lord Fowler, since Lyanna was going to have a child within his property. The Fowlers are one of the very few who can go toe to toe with the Martells. In matter of fact, Arrianne was hoping she would get their support against her father + Dorran told Arrianne that he didn't trust Nymeria because she's close to the Fowler twins. Another person who might have known was Varys (because he's Varys)

[devilish]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I had thought Varys plenty, but I re read exchanges between him and Ned, like their first meeting when Ned becomes hand, and their talks of the cells and I honestly don't think there is any hint whatsoever that these two have shared info between them in a secretive manner(such as Lyannas whereabouts) in the past. I wholeheartedly can not see Varys as the man.

I would assume Ned would have went straight to the Tower if he found out at KL also. Not the siege first.

Ethan is a great bet for the man who helps Ned understand Lyanna was actually willing and involved possibly, although he lacks the location, then it's a case of just getting the location from somebody , either at the siege, or sometime not long after.

 

He might have told him that Lyanna might have been willing and involved but surely he didn't know about Lyanna's location

a- Rhaegar wouldn't trust somebody who come to KL with Brandon to kill him
b- Aerys didn't like Rhaegar too much either. So he would keep Lyanna's location a secret as much as possible (he didn't even confided such secret with Jon Conn)
 

[devilish]

5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I had thought Varys plenty, but I re read exchanges between him and Ned, like their first meeting when Ned becomes hand, and their talks of the cells and I honestly don't think there is any hint whatsoever that these two have shared info between them in a secretive manner(such as Lyannas whereabouts) in the past. I wholeheartedly can not see Varys as the man.

I would assume Ned would have went straight to the Tower if he found out at KL also. Not the siege first.

Ethan is a great bet for the man who helps Ned understand Lyanna was actually willing and involved possibly, although he lacks the location, then it's a case of just getting the location from somebody , either at the siege, or sometime not long after.

 

I agree. The more time passes, the more I am convinced that it was a Fowler