Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, devilish said:

He might have told him that Lyanna might have been willing and involved but surely he didn't know about Lyanna's location

a- Rhaegar wouldn't trust somebody who come to KL with Brandon to kill him
b- Aerys didn't like Rhaegar too much either. So he would keep Lyanna's location a secret as much as possible (he didn't even confided such secret with Jon Conn)
 

[Bael's Bastard]

Just now, devilish said:

But why on earth would Rhaegar spill the beans about Lyanna's location with Ethan?

I don't think Rhaegar would have, and I tend to think Rhaegar's closest confidants wouldn't have (Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Lewyn Martell, Myles Mooton, Richard Lonmouth, and Jon Connington are implied to have been his closest confidants). And I think that no matter who one suggests, there is the question of how they found out, and how or why they told Ned. With Ethan we have a good reason why he would have told Ned. The question is how he would have found out, especially since he came to King's Landing as part of an entourage hostile to Rhaegar.

[Macgregor of the North]

@devilish my quoting went fucked up.

i see you posted again saying you agree. That's cool because I had never said Ethan knew the location. 

A member of house fowler is a possibility sure. I'm personally thinking the reveal will involve Ashara and Wylla the wet nurse from Starfall.

I must admit though. If GRRM writes the Bran crackpot angle really well, I'd like that, but it would need to come across very well on page.

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't think Rhaegar would have, and I tend to think Rhaegar's closest confidants wouldn't have (Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Lewyn Martell, Myles Mooton, Richard Lonmouth, and Jon Connington are implied to have been his closest confidants). And I think that no matter who one suggests, there is the question of how they found out, and how or why they told Ned. With Ethan we have a good reason why he would have told Ned. The question is how he would have found out, especially since he came to King's Landing as part of an entourage hostile to Rhaegar.

The chances of Ethan being the man who told Ned are next to zero. If he was in captivity at KL and told Ned upon his release and they would have headed to the Tower of joy much sooner. If he was at large, Ned would have found out sooner and headed to the tower sooner.

Ethan is important though as he was kept alive by GRRM. Theres a chance he knew that Brandon suspected Lyanna was willing to go with Rhaegar. Ethan becomes Neds companion after the sack it seems. He could have explained this to Ned, helping him piece together the gaps and understand that Lyanna was not kidnapped. This may be when Ned handpicks trusted northern soldiers and sets out to find the location before Robert does.

[devilish]

17 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't think Rhaegar would have, and I tend to think Rhaegar's closest confidants wouldn't have (Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Lewyn Martell, Myles Mooton, Richard Lonmouth, and Jon Connington are implied to have been his closest confidants). And I think that no matter who one suggests, there is the question of how they found out, and how or why they told Ned. With Ethan we have a good reason why he would have told Ned. The question is how he would have found out, especially since he came to King's Landing as part of an entourage hostile to Rhaegar.

As explained, Rhaegar could only trust with this secret a very small set of people ie people who aren't too close to Aerys (or under his thumb), who aren't rebels and who aren't loyal to the Martells. That means that whoever told Eddard either

a- knew about it without Rhaegar's knowing (Varys?)

b- they weren't particularly fond of neither Aerys nor the Martells and they had something to gain by saying it

House Fowler is a powerhouse in Dorne and aren't particularly loved by Dorran (which suggest that the sentiment is mutual). If the Martells fall out of the crown's grace (irrespective whose holding the crown) than their name would be the likely mentioned as possibly Lord Paramount. Its within their interest to help Rhaegar as much as its within their interest to spill the beans with the new king's best mate once the crown prince is dead. Imagine the scene if Lyanna died and the king (ie her supposed husband), the Lord Paramount of the North and the Prince of Dorne suddenly learnt that she was hidden in Fowler's territory and that Lord Fowler decided not to tell anything to anybody. 

[DigUpHerBones]

Quote

Well surely he had to also tell Lord Fowler, since Lyanna was going to have a child within his property. The Fowlers are one of the very few who can go toe to toe with the Martells. In matter of fact, Arrianne was hoping she would get their support against her father + Dorran told Arrianne that he didn't trust Nymeria because she's close to the Fowler twins. Another person who might have known was Varys (because he's Varys)

he did not have to tell anyone...

Rhegs was the CP and was plotting to overthrow his father at his return from leading the Royal Army.

This is an extremely entitled individual we are talking about here, a man who read a book and thought to himself, "jeeze, this sounds like me, guess i am the prince who was promised and i should be a warrior and fulfill this prophesy" then realized he was wrong and said, "guess its my kid!"

Varys is romanticized as infallible and all knowing way too often by some readers, IMO. not saying you, just saying...he cannot be the cog that moves and knows everything...

 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, DigUpHerBones said:

Varys is romanticized as infallible and all knowing way too often by some readers, IMO. not saying you, just saying...he cannot be the cog that moves and knows everything...

I quite agree with this.

[StoneyTargaryen]

I was always curious what the public thinks or knows in regard to how the 3 Kingsguard died. They were well known and I assume it was obvious they were absent from Kingslanding for some time before Brandon's arrival even, then never turned up during the rebellion. Is it widely known that they fell to Ned and Howland?

[Bironic]

Gerold Hightower was sent to get Rhaegar back and he was able to do so, but was ordered by Rhaegar to remain with Lyanna. How did Gerold know where Rhaegar was? Maybe he knew it from the same source that "informed" Ned?

I like the idea that Ethan Glover might have suggested to Ned that Lyanna went willingly. I always suspected that Benjen was aware of this as well and that it was one of the reasons that he took the black.

1 hour ago, devilish said:

 If the Martells fall out of the crown's grace (irrespective whose holding the crown) than their name would be the likely mentioned as possibly Lord Paramount.

I think Yronwood would be the more likely choice, Yronwood seems to be the dornish version of House Royce/Frey/Reyne/Bolton/Hightower etc. They're often mentioned as being the most powerful Dornish Lords under the Martells and also the most troublesome. They have supported the Blackfyres in the past, they were the last to surrender to Nymeria etc.

House Fowler comes next I think, followed by houses such as Dayne.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

2 hours ago, devilish said:

b-     Someone from House Fowler. They are the Boltons equivalent at Dorne and the tower of joy is located in their own land. Let us face it irrespective who won the war the link between Martells and the crown was bound to get damaged. Dorran would be expected to bend the knee to either a love rat or someone who dethroned or even killed his sister. We also know that the Martells are renowned for being short tempered. A rebellion was probable and once the Martells were beaten a new Lord Paramount would need to be appointed. Who is more suited to the role than someone who lent the tower of joy to the future Crown Prince/someone who aided the king’s best mate in finding his beloved his sister and the King’s future wife?

I thought the Yronwoods were the Boltons from Dorne? They are the second most powerful house. Or if you're talking about brutalities, it's the Wyls. Still, I can understand why they would want to come in the king's good graces, but then why not tell the king himself? Plus, even though the Tower of Joy is on Fowler land, I don't think Rhaegar, the crown prince, would have to explain to the Fowlers what he was doing there, just maybe mention that he was there. And as far as they know, Rhaegar's left and died at the Trident.

1 hour ago, DigUpHerBones said:

this one is easy...Bran

it is certainly not going to be some obscure character that has 2 references in the entire series...i.e, Lonmouth

Sure, it could've been Bran, and it likely isn't Lonmouth. But Lonmouth certainly is not some obscure character with 2 references in the entire series. He is Lem Lemoncloak (which we know from Lem's interaction with tGoHH). He used to be Rhaegar's squire, so might have more information on Rhaegar, but he was also strangely mentioned in Meera's story of the Tourney at Harrenhall, where he seemed to be a friend of Robert. We don't know what side he fought for in RR and we don't know what happened to turn him into Lem.

[devilish]

25 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

I thought the Yronwoods were the Boltons from Dorne? They are the second most powerful house. Or if you're talking about brutalities, it's the Wyls. Still, I can understand why they would want to come in the king's good graces, but then why not tell the king himself? Plus, even though the Tower of Joy is on Fowler land, I don't think Rhaegar, the crown prince, would have to explain to the Fowlers what he was doing there, just maybe mention that he was there. And as far as they know, Rhaegar's left and died at the Trident.

Sure, it could've been Bran, and it likely isn't Lonmouth. But Lonmouth certainly is not some obscure character with 2 references in the entire series. He is Lem Lemoncloak (which we know from Lem's interaction with tGoHH). He used to be Rhaegar's squire, so might have more information on Rhaegar, but he was also strangely mentioned in Meera's story of the Tourney at Harrenhall, where he seemed to be a friend of Robert. We don't know what side he fought for in RR and we don't know what happened to turn him into Lem.

It could be either the Fowlers or the Yronwoods. They are both strong and the tower of joy might be located on their lands (No one knows exactly were the tower of joy is located apart that its on the red mountains). Doran seem to trust the Yronwoods more than he trusts the Fowlers though (he sent his son to be tutored by them), which makes me think that the ones hiding Lyanna's location from Doran and then spilling the beans to Eddard were the Fowlers not the Yronwood. 

Regarding Rhaegar he couldn't do what he pleased since he was not a king just yet. If he took possession of the tower of joy without the Fowler's consent then they would be entitled to complain about it to either the King or the Martells. That would reveal Lyanna's location. Also pissing off short tempered people in their own lands is never wise, especially if the prince is planning to have his pregnant paramour protected by just 3 men. Tragedies do happen and thieves can attack the tower in the middle of the night, overwhelming opposition and hang those inside before the Fowlers could act. That's why its wise to keep the banner men updated on what's happening on their lands.

Regarding telling Ned rather then Robert, well that makes sense doesn't it? The last thing they want is for Robert to lose it and to march an army on their lands in a bid to crush the surviving dragon spawn with his own hammer. That might as well cause another civil war. Ned is far more discreet and will be grateful towards that Lord who have helped him tackle the issue in a discreet way. 

I can't understand Bran's theory

[devilish]

18 minutes ago, Bironic said:

Gerold Hightower was sent to get Rhaegar back and he was able to do so, but was ordered by Rhaegar to remain with Lyanna. How did Gerold know where Rhaegar was? Maybe he knew it from the same source that "informed" Ned?

I like the idea that Ethan Glover might have suggested to Ned that Lyanna went willingly. I always suspected that Benjen was aware of this as well and that it was one of the reasons that he took the black.

I think Yronwood would be the more likely choice, Yronwood seems to be the dornish version of House Royce/Frey/Reyne/Bolton/Hightower etc. They're often mentioned as being the most powerful Dornish Lords under the Martells and also the most troublesome. They have supported the Blackfyres in the past, they were the last to surrender to Nymeria etc.

House Fowler comes next I think, followed by houses such as Dayne.

The Yronwoods are more powerful that the Fowlers. However they seem to be quite loyal to the Martells. Doran trusted them with his son's life, time and time again. However he seem reluctant to trust the Fowlers.

It makes you wonder why. Maybe they hid the location of their former prince's paramour to them?

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

Just now, devilish said:

It could be either the Fowlers or the Yronwoods. They are both strong and the tower of joy might be located on their lands (No one knows exactly were the tower of joy is located apart that its on the red mountains). Doran seem to trust the Yronwoods more than he trusts the Fowlers though (he sent his son to be tutored by them), which makes me think that the ones hiding Lyanna's location from Doran and then spilling the beans to Eddard were the Fowlers not the Yronwood. 

Regarding Rhaegar he couldn't do what he pleased. First of all because that may force the Fowlers to complain to either the King or the Martells, which in turn would reveal Lyanna's location. Secondly, its never wise to piss off short tempered bannermen in their own land, especially if your paramour is protected by just 3 men. Tragedies do happen and thieves can attack the tower in the middle of the night. That's why its wise to keep the banner men updated on what's happening on their lands.

I can't understand Bran's theory

Doran was forced to ward Quentyn to the Yronwoods because Oberyn killed Lord Edgar Yronwood. So there definitely is bad blood between the Yronwoods and the Martells, probably more so than with the Fowlers (since we don't hear of any rivalry between them and the Martells).

We do know where the ToJ is: It's on the map of Dorne in tWoIaF, and it does seem to be in Fowler land.

And if the Fowlers don't know Rhaegar is there, how would they tell the king? And are they gonna refuse Rhaegar if Rhaegar was to tell them: "Just stopping by, gonna stay in that nice tower you got there." It would be a really dumb move to secretly elope with Lyanna and then just tell some random Dornish Lord: "Hi! This is Lyanna. We'd like to stay in your tower to get her pregnant and make the Prince that was Promised. But don't tell anyone, it's a secret..."

[Bael's Bastard]

3 hours ago, DigUpHerBones said:

exactly...if he didn't tell JonCon, he didn't tell anyone other than the 3KG, IMO...that wouldn't match with his character

I am not arguing that Rhaegar or even any of his companions or confidants would have directly told Ethan, or anyone else on or seen to be on the side of the rebels. I am not even positive it was Ethan who told Ned, just think it is a good possibility.

We don't know who knew that Lyanna was at the ToJ, or how or when or from whom they found out. But it is worth keeping in mind that, unless he somehow deduced it on his own, Gerold Hightower likely found out from someone too, before Ned did.

There are four men who are implied to have been at the ToJ with Lyanna at one point or another:

* Rhaegar Targaryen
* Arthur Dayne
* Oswell Whent
* Gerold Hightower

TWOIAF tells us that Rhaegar had set off with half a dozen closest friends and confidants at the coming of the year after the False Spring leading up to Lyanna's abduction. It also portrays Dayne, Whent, Lewyn Martell, Myles Mooton, Richard Lonmouth, and Jon Connington as Rhaegar's supporters, friends, and/or confidants.

Hightower doesn't seem to be portrayed as having been especially close to Rhaegar. He was also in King's Landing after Lyanna's abduction, when Rickard and Brandon Stark were executed. Perhaps we can't completely rule out that Hightower was part of the half a dozen Rhaegar set out with, but it seems likely he only learned about the ToJ during the war, and likely not from Rhaegar, Dayne, or Whent.

Of these four, only Rhaegar is certain to have been part of the original party of seven and to have also returned to King's Landing at some point before dying. But did he return to King's Landing before Hightower left for the ToJ, or only after Hightower arrived at the ToJ? If I recall correctly, the AWOIAF app indicates that Hightower arrived at the ToJ while Rhaegar was still there, and was commanded by him to stay.

There are four men other than Dayne and Whent most likely to have been part of the half a dozen closest friends and confidants who set off with Rhaegar at the coming of the year after the False Spring:

* Lewyn Martell
* Myles Mooton
* Richard Lonmouth
* Jon Connington

If they were part of Rhaegar's half a dozen, it is not clear at what point they split off from Rhaegar, whether before or after they arrived at the ToJ, or if they were told anything by Rhaegar about where he was heading. But we know that at least two of them ended up back in King's Landing before they died, likely three, possibly all four.

Lonmouth's location and actions during the war seem to be a complete mystery. But Connington was in KL to be named Hand before the Battle of the Bells, a battle which Mooton also fought and died in. And Martell was in KL after the BotB to be threatened by Aerys into taking command of the Dornish forces coming up the kingsroad.

If we assume for the sake of argument that Rhaegar's original entourage consisted of himself, Dayne, Whent, Martell, Mooton, Lonmouth, and Connington, that would mean that at the very least Rhaegar, Martell, and Connington (likely Mooton, and possibly Lonmouth) were there for the beginning of the journey and lived to see King's Landing again with whatever knowledge they did or didn't have about the ToJ.

In such a scenario, if the ToJ situation was a secret from the king and everyone else in general, and only known to Rhaegar and a small group of his trusted supporters, which of them might Hightower, still in King's Landing, have learned about it from? And is there any possibility that another party might have heard that person telling Hightower?

As for Ned, I find it difficult to believe he learned of it prior to being present in King's Landing, by which point Rhaegar, Martell, and Mooton were dead, Connington was exiled, and he had not yet run into Dayne, Whent, or Hightower. That admittedly still leaves Lonmouth to have heard it directly from, but why would he say anything directly to Ned? I don't really see anyone from one side directly telling anyone from the other.

If I had to suggest a way that Ethan could have found out and been the source for Ned, it would be that Ethan was told by someone like Varys, perhaps a Varys in disguise. And if I had to suggest a way that Varys could have found out and been the source for Ethan, it would be that Varys and his birds acquired the information in KL while spying on Rhaegar's returned confidants. Perhaps when one of them told Hightower where to find him? Perhaps in some other scenario involving one or more of Rhaegar's returned confidants having an ill-advised conversation or letter? I am not sure. But I do think Ned learned of it at King's Landing or later, when few possible first person sources were still alive. And I lean towards him learning it from a friendly face rather than someone from Rhaegar's side of things.

[Greywater-Watch]

I would assume that Barristan Selmy was informed about the whereabouts of the 4 of the Kingsguard not at the battle of the Trident.

He swore fielty to Robert Baratheon (either after his capture at the Trident or the death of Aerys II).

[Bael's Bastard]

2 hours ago, DigUpHerBones said:

Varys is romanticized as infallible and all knowing way too often by some readers, IMO. not saying you, just saying...he cannot be the cog that moves and knows everything...

 

I would agree that Varys doesn't have spies everywhere in Westeros picking up every thing everyone says. But the Red Keep is Varys' bread and butter. All it would take for Varys to have learned something is for one of the small group of people who may have known something to have said or written something while they were in King's Landing. Martell and Connington are both among the likeliest to have originally embarked with Rhaegar, and Rhaegar, Connington, and Martell all made it back to King's Landing at some point before the end of the war. Mooton and Lonmouth are also possibilities. And Hightower could have been an unintentional source when/after he learned about it and before he left for the ToJ.

[King Ned Stark]

1 hour ago, Bironic said:

Gerold Hightower was sent to get Rhaegar back and he was able to do so, but was ordered by Rhaegar to remain with Lyanna. How did Gerold know where Rhaegar was? Maybe he knew it from the same source that "informed" Ned?

I like the idea that Ethan Glover might have suggested to Ned that Lyanna went willingly. I always suspected that Benjen was aware of this as well and that it was one of the reasons that he took the black.

I think Yronwood would be the more likely choice, Yronwood seems to be the dornish version of House Royce/Frey/Reyne/Bolton/Hightower etc. They're often mentioned as being the most powerful Dornish Lords under the Martells and also the most troublesome. They have supported the Blackfyres in the past, they were the last to surrender to Nymeria etc.

House Fowler comes next I think, followed by houses such as Dayne.

Concerning the bolded, I have a gut feeling/crackpot thought, that there was some correspondence between Rhaegar and Aerys while the rebellion was raging.  It is said the Chelsted failed and then Connington, and Aerys was growing desperate.  

Why was Ethan spared?  Why send the Lord Commander of the kingsguard when there are a lot of other less important people who could have been sent to find/talk to Rhaegar.  Arguably Gerold is better suited to deal with the rebellion than anyone else in Kings Landing.  I think GrrM set a precedent with Ned letting Barristan verify Robert's will, because the LC of the KG carries some weight.

I also think GrrM set a precedent with having Prince (not King) Maekar take a second wife, and was thusly exiled by the king.  Maybe Aerys didn't have the luxury of exiling Rhaegar, because the rebellion had spiraled out of his control.  He was suspicious of Rhaegar, and possibly feared him a bit, because IIRC, Barristan said Rhaegar was one thing above all, able.

I believe Rhaegar wanted some kind of royal decree in return for putting down the rebellion, and eventually Aerys acquiesced.  I think Gerold's involvement was needed by Rhaegar to cement the deal.  Until that time I think there were two factions of kingsguard at the time of the abduction/elopement.  Aerys's kg were Gerold, Barristan, and Jaime (who probably wanted to be in Rhaegar's camp but was simply an unproven commodity at the time).  The rest were with Rhaegar.  I think Rhaegar was setting things in place for an as-smooth-as-can-be-made regime change, and wanted Gerold.  Maybe Aerys sent men to arrest Lyanna, to discredit Rhaegar or because of the KotLT, who knows, and Rhaegar intervened.  Maybe Lyanna is a repeated version of the grey girl on a dying horse.

Apropos of nothing, the other two grievances besides Maeker taking a second wife, that led to the uprising of the Faith Militant, have also been re-enacted in kind of inverted way.  And now we have the Sparrows.

Anyway, per the OP, I think there were at least a few of the royalists in KL that knew the whereabouts of Rhaegar and who was at the ToJ.

I know, a lot of ifs and maybes.

[Bironic]

1 hour ago, King Ned Stark said:

Concerning the bolded, I have a gut feeling/crackpot thought, that there was some correspondence between Rhaegar and Aerys while the rebellion was raging.  It is said the Chelsted failed and then Connington, and Aerys was growing desperate.  

Why was Ethan spared?  Why send the Lord Commander of the kingsguard when there are a lot of other less important people who could have been sent to find/talk to Rhaegar.  Arguably Gerold is better suited to deal with the rebellion than anyone else in Kings Landing.  I think GrrM set a precedent with Ned letting Barristan verify Robert's will, because the LC of the KG carries some weight.

I also think GrrM set a precedent with having Prince (not King) Maekar take a second wife, and was thusly exiled by the king.  Maybe Aerys didn't have the luxury of exiling Rhaegar, because the rebellion had spiraled out of his control.  He was suspicious of Rhaegar, and possibly feared him a bit, because IIRC, Barristan said Rhaegar was one thing above all, able.

I believe Rhaegar wanted some kind of royal decree in return for putting down the rebellion, and eventually Aerys acquiesced.  I think Gerold's involvement was needed by Rhaegar to cement the deal.  Until that time I think there were two factions of kingsguard at the time of the abduction/elopement.  Aerys's kg were Gerold, Barristan, and Jaime (who probably wanted to be in Rhaegar's camp but was simply an unproven commodity at the time).  The rest were with Rhaegar.  I think Rhaegar was setting things in place for an as-smooth-as-can-be-made regime change, and wanted Gerold.  Maybe Aerys sent men to arrest Lyanna, to discredit Rhaegar or because of the KotLT, who knows, and Rhaegar intervened.  Maybe Lyanna is a repeated version of the grey girl on a dying horse.

Apropos of nothing, the other two grievances besides Maeker taking a second wife, that led to the uprising of the Faith Militant, have also been re-enacted in kind of inverted way.  And now we have the Sparrows.

Anyway, per the OP, I think there were at least a few of the royalists in KL that knew the whereabouts of Rhaegar and who was at the ToJ.

I know, a lot of ifs and maybes.

Little nitpicking but it I think you mean Maegor the cruel not Maekar who is Eggs father. And Chelsted was appointed after Connington.

I am not so sure if Aerys was able to broker a deal with Rhaegar, he didn't trust the Ray-man anymore and at this point in his life he was batshit crazy. If rhaegar would have tried to pressure Aerys in some kind of agreement, I think Aerys would have probably ordered his death.

I agree with you that the court and the KG was divided at this point with Arthur Dayne Oswell whent etc. on Rhaegars side and Barristan and Jonothor on Aerys side.

 

[King Ned Stark]

21 minutes ago, Bironic said:

Little nitpicking but it I think you mean Maegor the cruel not Maekar who is Eggs father. And Chelsted was appointed after Connington.

I am not so sure if Aerys was able to broker a deal with Rhaegar, he didn't trust the Ray-man anymore and at this point in his life he was batshit crazy. If rhaegar would have tried to pressure Aerys in some kind of agreement, I think Aerys would have probably ordered his death.

I agree with you that the court and the KG was divided at this point with Arthur Dayne Oswell whent etc. on Rhaegars side and Barristan and Jonothor on Aerys side.

 

Ah, thx for the correction, was going by memory.  Yeah, it's pretty flimsy, I've tried to reconcile how Rhaegar stayed away so long, and how all of a sudden Aerys/Gerold knew where to find him, and then Gerold doesn't return for the battle, which I sure would be against Aerys's wishes.

[Bironic]

20 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

Ah, thx for the correction, was going by memory.  Yeah, it's pretty flimsy, I've tried to reconcile how Rhaegar stayed away so long, and how all of a sudden Aerys/Gerold knew where to find him, and then Gerold doesn't return for the battle, which I sure would be against Aerys's wishes.

I think Aerys ordered Gerold to bring Rhaegar back, I really don't know how Gerold was able to find Rhaegar. I think Rhaegar somehow managed to convince Gerold that's more important to guard Lyanna than to fight at the Trident. Which was as you said against Aerys wishes.