Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

[devilish]

4 hours ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Doran was forced to ward Quentyn to the Yronwoods because Oberyn killed Lord Edgar Yronwood. So there definitely is bad blood between the Yronwoods and the Martells, probably more so than with the Fowlers (since we don't hear of any rivalry between them and the Martells).

We do know where the ToJ is: It's on the map of Dorne in tWoIaF, and it does seem to be in Fowler land.

And if the Fowlers don't know Rhaegar is there, how would they tell the king? And are they gonna refuse Rhaegar if Rhaegar was to tell them: "Just stopping by, gonna stay in that nice tower you got there." It would be a really dumb move to secretly elope with Lyanna and then just tell some random Dornish Lord: "Hi! This is Lyanna. We'd like to stay in your tower to get her pregnant and make the Prince that was Promised. But don't tell anyone, it's a secret..."

A Lord Paramount is not forced to do anything especially in times of peace. Also Quentyn was accompanied by Yronwood to Essos which means they are trusted.

And don't you really think that if there's a tower in your land and is suddenly occupied by somebody you wouldn't peek around? And don't you think that you won't be suspicious if the crown prince shows out ordering your men to leave when he's supposed to be fighting a civil war instead? Dorne is far away from the crownlands and the prince doesn't go incognito there without the Lord Paramount knowing unless he's got something to hide. Everyone would know about his little escapade with Lyanna by that time

[Nevets]

If we ever find out, and it is a character we have heard of, my money is on Ashara Dayne.  Her brother was in the KG, and I think she was involved with the whole affair.  From Edric Dayne's story, she also has apparent ties to Ned.  I can't think of anyone else, story-wise, that would really make much sense.  Of course, given that the main participants are all dead, we may never find out in any case.

[tugela]

Don't forget that Rhaegar was summoned back to KL to lead the army to the Trident, so obviously someone there knew where to look. The most obvious candidate would be Jaime, since he belonged to the King's Guard, and was close to Rhaegar. The first person Ned encountered on finding Aerys was Jaime, and Jaime probably told him where Lyanna was at that point and why she was there. Duty came first however, Robert directed him to relieve the siege of Stannis, and he could hardly tell Robert that he had more pressing matters to deal with without spilling the beans. So he got the siege out of the way ASAP, and immediately went to ToJ as fast as he could ride, along with a few trusted friends. Them being able to best Arthur Dayne was probably less important than them being trusted. Ned likely did not anticipate there being a fight, he would have expected to see Lyanna and have her defuse any martial confrontation. But when he got there she was dying and in no position to do that, so Ned had to fight.

[tugela]

The tower itself would have belonged to a knight, who in turn would have been sworn to the local lord. It is not necessary for the local lord to have been aware that Rhaegar was there however, unless the knight told him. Whoever owned the tower presumably was loyal to Rhaegar and would have kept it secret from his lord, partly to protect Rhaegar, but also to protect his lord (who would be considered culpable if he did not reveal that fact to his overlord in turn).

Overlords do not go on tour of their territories, bannermen come to them. The administration of pieces of their territory would have been left to the lesser lords or knights responsible for individual areas. Since almost everyone did not travel further than walking distance from wherever they were born in medieval times, news that someone else was living at an isolated tower would not have been common knowledge, even locally. There were no telephones, newspapers or TV. You would have had some peasants providing services to some lords guesting at the tower, but they would not have known who those guests were, or had the means to communicate that information to the outside world even if they did.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Ashara Dayne .

[Bironic]

8 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Ashara Dayne .

This makes the most sense. She probably told Gerold Hightower as well.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

15 hours ago, tugela said:

Don't forget that Rhaegar was summoned back to KL to lead the army to the Trident, so obviously someone there knew where to look. The most obvious candidate would be Jaime, since he belonged to the King's Guard, and was close to Rhaegar. The first person Ned encountered on finding Aerys was Jaime, and Jaime probably told him where Lyanna was at that point and why she was there. Duty came first however, Robert directed him to relieve the siege of Stannis, and he could hardly tell Robert that he had more pressing matters to deal with without spilling the beans. So he got the siege out of the way ASAP, and immediately went to ToJ as fast as he could ride, along with a few trusted friends. Them being able to best Arthur Dayne was probably less important than them being trusted. Ned likely did not anticipate there being a fight, he would have expected to see Lyanna and have her defuse any martial confrontation. But when he got there she was dying and in no position to do that, so Ned had to fight.

This would make a lot of sense, and I admit it crossed my mind at some point while reading the whole thread (i.e. Jaime being the tattletale), were it not for the fact that we've had Ned and Jaime POVs and none come close to even hint this.

Ned is reproachful of Jaime for seating the IT when he rode into the throne room, but never expresses gratitude towards him for letting him know of Lyanna's whereabouts.

Jaime also recalls this encounter with Ned and remembers Ned's look and never thinks something along the lines of "You would've thought he could've been more thankful after I told him where he could find his beloved she-wolf of a sister."

GRRM has been seeding this plot twist (the ToJ) since the inception of the series; it would be a complete blunder if it was in fact Jaime, and had totally oversaw this detail with the two people involved.

[devilish]

16 hours ago, tugela said:

The tower itself would have belonged to a knight, who in turn would have been sworn to the local lord. It is not necessary for the local lord to have been aware that Rhaegar was there however, unless the knight told him. Whoever owned the tower presumably was loyal to Rhaegar and would have kept it secret from his lord, partly to protect Rhaegar, but also to protect his lord (who would be considered culpable if he did not reveal that fact to his overlord in turn).

Overlords do not go on tour of their territories, bannermen come to them. The administration of pieces of their territory would have been left to the lesser lords or knights responsible for individual areas. Since almost everyone did not travel further than walking distance from wherever they were born in medieval times, news that someone else was living at an isolated tower would not have been common knowledge, even locally. There were no telephones, newspapers or TV. You would have had some peasants providing services to some lords guesting at the tower, but they would not have known who those guests were, or had the means to communicate that information to the outside world even if they did.

Bannermen has their own army and yes they are responsible of what happens in their own piece of land. That's why the Lord Paramount appoints them even though they take their cut from the taxes that are collected. If they do not know what's going on in their land, then they might as well get rid of the middle man altogether and hire administrators and knights instead. 

The Tower of joy was located in Dorne, precisely around the borders between Dorne and the Stormlands who were enemies. The crown prince betrayed the princess of Dorne with some wrench in the North. That caused a war of epic proportions which Dorne was forced to participate. Surely the bannermen would be expected to know exactly what's going into their territory just in case Robert or even the Tyrells (god knows what backroom deals were being made) shows up with an army, keen in taking Dorne by surprise. I doubt that the crown prince, 3 white knights in shining armour and a pregnant woman could step in their lands without them knowing.  

[devilish]

16 hours ago, tugela said:

Don't forget that Rhaegar was summoned back to KL to lead the army to the Trident, so obviously someone there knew where to look. The most obvious candidate would be Jaime, since he belonged to the King's Guard, and was close to Rhaegar. The first person Ned encountered on finding Aerys was Jaime, and Jaime probably told him where Lyanna was at that point and why she was there. Duty came first however, Robert directed him to relieve the siege of Stannis, and he could hardly tell Robert that he had more pressing matters to deal with without spilling the beans. So he got the siege out of the way ASAP, and immediately went to ToJ as fast as he could ride, along with a few trusted friends. Them being able to best Arthur Dayne was probably less important than them being trusted. Ned likely did not anticipate there being a fight, he would have expected to see Lyanna and have her defuse any martial confrontation. But when he got there she was dying and in no position to do that, so Ned had to fight.

I much doubt it. Eddard didn't hate Rhaegar and even defended Danny when Robert was thinking of killing her. However he despised Jamie with a passion. Would he do that if Jamie slipped such information to Eddard? Also if Jamie did slip such information don't you think, that that cocky young man would confront him with it, next time Eddard decides to use his patronising 'honourable' attitude on him? 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

I've nursed a crackpot theory for sometime that Ned knew all along.  Lyanna confided in him that she was running away with Rhaegar and made Ned swear an oath to not tell Brandon, Robert, Lord Rickard or anyone else. This was "Promise me, Ned". Keeping this secret resulted in so many deaths and that's why he is so badly haunted and guilty about it.  The war may have happened anyway, or Aerys overthrown at the very least, but things might have been very different for Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna & Rhaegar (and many more)

if not that, I agree with @Bironic that Benjen knew, which was one of the reasons he took the black - guilt at all the deaths it caused.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

im of the opinion he simply heard about several KG being seen in Dorne.  Their absence from the battlefields of RR had already been noted by Ned and with Rhaegar dead, who better to give him news of Lyanna than Rhaegars supposed best friend.  Judging from Ned's dream, its not like the KG were exactly hiding.  They wore their armor and cloaks which are readily recognizable to anyone who passed by.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

10 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I've nursed a crackpot theory for sometime that Ned knew all along.  Lyanna confided in him that she was running away with Rhaegar and made Ned swear an oath to not tell Brandon, Robert, Lord Rickard or anyone else. This was "Promise me, Ned". Keeping this secret resulted in so many deaths and that's why he is so badly haunted and guilty about it.  

Made him - how?

Told him - when? When everything happened, Ned was back in the Vale, the last time she'd seen him was most likely the HH tourney. She made the decision then, she told Ned then, and executed the plan much later?

Although I agree that Ned probably did know almost from the beginning (say, from when he got to Riverrun). And so did Brandon - which perfectly explains his otherwise idiotic course of action. Maybe Benjen was involved somehow, too (helped her? tried and failed to stop her? didn't try to stop her, just passed the message?), and that's why he took the black.

[bent branch]

I'm positive it was Varys. The usual objection to this is that when Varys and Ned meet in KL it doesn't seem like they have the type of relationship you would expect if Varys told Ned. But if you look at how Varys lured Kevan into Pycelle's quarters it is easy to see how Varys could have told Ned where Lyanna was without revealing himself as the informant. Varys sent Ned a note delivered by a child. Notice how Kevan has no suspicion of the child delivering his note. Indeed, Kevan barely notices the child. Ned would have been the same.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

I'm positive it was Varys. The usual objection to this is that when Varys and Ned meet in KL it doesn't seem like they have the type of relationship you would expect if Varys told Ned. But if you look at how Varys lured Kevan into Pycelle's quarters it is easy to see how Varys could have told Ned where Lyanna was without revealing himself as the informant. Varys sent Ned a note delivered by a child. Notice how Kevan has no suspicion of the child delivering his note. Indeed, Kevan barely notices the child. Ned would have been the same.

This is a possibility sure. 

The way people attempt to debunk the Varys thing though, it works with this theory also. If for instance Varys had an ace up his sleeve that would make Ned trust him, which Ned never does, then Varys could have informed him that the information of his sisters whereabouts came from him, even though he wasn't the actual message boy. 

The lack of this conversation happening, even in the cells which would have been a great time to let Ned know, make people suspicious of Varys being the man.

Also, Varys does not have to know everything in the story.

[Macgregor of the North]

Had some more thoughts on Asharas involvement.

Elia is at Dragonstone with baby Aegon and Rhaenys, Ashara is with her likely yes?. Aerys somehow transports Elia to KL to be his hostage. Its not ever stated if Ashara was at Kings landing for the sack. When Elia leaves for KL does Ashara then leave in her own direction? Maybe Elia commanded it of her sensing that Aerys summons of her was not with friendly intent, or maybe Ashara acts on her own motivation to not be taken to KL with Elia and flees.

Ashara is now a free agent on the move if this is the case. If she has the information Ned seeks already, or picks it up on the move, all that has to happen is that info is passed from Ashara to Ned somehow which is easily possible.

How GRRM tells us that happened is what will be interesting, but i am positive Ashara Dayne is involved heavily in that situation. 

[tugela]

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 10:16 AM, devilish said:

Bannermen has their own army and yes they are responsible of what happens in their own piece of land. That's why the Lord Paramount appoints them even though they take their cut from the taxes that are collected. If they do not know what's going on in their land, then they might as well get rid of the middle man altogether and hire administrators and knights instead. 

The Tower of joy was located in Dorne, precisely around the borders between Dorne and the Stormlands who were enemies. The crown prince betrayed the princess of Dorne with some wrench in the North. That caused a war of epic proportions which Dorne was forced to participate. Surely the bannermen would be expected to know exactly what's going into their territory just in case Robert or even the Tyrells (god knows what backroom deals were being made) shows up with an army, keen in taking Dorne by surprise. I doubt that the crown prince, 3 white knights in shining armour and a pregnant woman could step in their lands without them knowing.  

That is how things worked in the middle ages. Vassals were assigned smaller parts of the territories where they pretty much did as they pleased, provided that they collected taxes, maintained order and supplied troops when war arose. Communication in general was poor, so if one knight was persuaded by Raegar to make his tower available as a love nest, and keep it secret, there is little chance that the overlord would know about it unless the knight expressly told them.

[tugela]

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 10:20 AM, devilish said:

I much doubt it. Eddard didn't hate Rhaegar and even defended Danny when Robert was thinking of killing her. However he despised Jamie with a passion. Would he do that if Jamie slipped such information to Eddard? Also if Jamie did slip such information don't you think, that that cocky young man would confront him with it, next time Eddard decides to use his patronising 'honourable' attitude on him? 

No, because telling Ned would not have been a big deal at the time, but failing to tell Robert, the new king, most certainly would since that was the reason he went to war in the first place. If Jaime later on wanted to brag about it the very real risk would be that he might find his head on the end of a pike, since failing to tell the king about Lyanna's whereabouts would have been clear treason. The same would apply to Ned, they both had strong incentive to keep quite about that. Plus, Rhaegar was his friend, so he would have had loyalty there and had a desire to protect his lover. Jaime was not a dishonorable man, in spite of his flaws.

What is more curious however is that Robert never enquired as to how Ned came about the information regarding where Lyanna was, nor did he ask what exactly happened. So the book is not exactly logical in how that was dealt with.

 

[bent branch]

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

This is a possibility sure. 

The way people attempt to debunk the Varys thing though, it works with this theory also. If for instance Varys had an ace up his sleeve that would make Ned trust him, which Ned never does, then Varys could have informed him that the information of his sisters whereabouts came from him, even though he wasn't the actual message boy. 

The lack of this conversation happening, even in the cells which would have been a great time to let Ned know, make people suspicious of Varys being the man.

Also, Varys does not have to know everything in the story.

No, it really doesn't. Varys needed Ned to go to the Wall so that full scale war didn't break out. Given that, which works better?

1.  Hey, Ned. I was the one who slipped that note to you about Lyanna's whereabouts. Aren't you grateful enough to me to go live the rest of your life on the Wall?

or

2.  Hey, Ned. If you don't go to the Wall I'll bring your daughter's head with me next time I visit, okay?

If you're thinking that Varys can use the information to threaten Ned with, you'd be wrong. Varys would have to reveal far more about what he knows than would be safe. Also, you are making a huge assumption that Varys is willing to reveal that much information to Ned. Revealing that he knows about Jon opens a can of worms that Varys doesn't need opened.

I have noticed the fetish of some people who want Varys to know less than he logically does. I don't really understand that. We know that this exchange between Dontos and Sansa is an accurate picture of life within the RK (ASOS-Chapter 18):
 

Quote

 

He swore. A solemn oath, before the gods. "Then...I will put myself in your hands, ser. But how will I know, when it is time to go? Will you send me another note?"

Ser Dontos glanced about anxiously. "The risk is too great. You must come here, to the godswood. As often as you can. This is the safest place. The only safe place. Nowhere else. Not in your chambers nor mine nor on the steps nor in the yard, even if it seems we are alone. The stones have ears in the Red Keep, and only here may we talk freely."

"Only here," Sansa said. "I'll remember."

 

We know Dontos is not exaggerating. We know there are secret passages everywhere in the Red Keep (except Maegor's Holdfast) and that Varys has children in all of them. I don't see why Varys would still be ignorant of where Rhaegar had taken Lyanna after Rhaegar had returned to KL. You would actually have to prove he didn't know rather than the opposite.

The reason it makes no sense for someone outside of KL to have told Ned is because of the distances covered. After all, from KL to Storm's End to Starfall back to the ToJ is a journey of over 1,500 miles (2400 kilometers). I have gotten into conversations before where people didn't realize the distances being discussed. However, once people realize the distances being talked about, many agree that Ned had to know where he was going before he even left KL.

[Macgregor of the North]

7 hours ago, bent branch said:

No, it really doesn't. Varys needed Ned to go to the Wall so that full scale war didn't break out. Given that, which works better?

1.  Hey, Ned. I was the one who slipped that note to you about Lyanna's whereabouts. Aren't you grateful enough to me to go live the rest of your life on the Wall?

or

2.  Hey, Ned. If you don't go to the Wall I'll bring your daughter's head with me next time I visit, okay?

If you're thinking that Varys can use the information to threaten Ned with, you'd be wrong. Varys would have to reveal far more about what he knows than would be safe. Also, you are making a huge assumption that Varys is willing to reveal that much information to Ned. Revealing that he knows about Jon opens a can of worms that Varys doesn't need opened.

I have noticed the fetish of some people who want Varys to know less than he logically does. I don't really understand that. We know that this exchange between Dontos and Sansa is an accurate picture of life within the RK (ASOS-Chapter 18):
 

We know Dontos is not exaggerating. We know there are secret passages everywhere in the Red Keep (except Maegor's Holdfast) and that Varys has children in all of them. I don't see why Varys would still be ignorant of where Rhaegar had taken Lyanna after Rhaegar had returned to KL. You would actually have to prove he didn't know rather than the opposite.

The reason it makes no sense for someone outside of KL to have told Ned is because of the distances covered. After all, from KL to Storm's End to Starfall back to the ToJ is a journey of over 1,500 miles (2400 kilometers). I have gotten into conversations before where people didn't realize the distances being discussed. However, once people realize the distances being talked about, many agree that Ned had to know where he was going before he even left KL.

You know, as soon as somebody starts using distances and time taken to travel, that's where I get the idea they are stretching to suit their own belief. GRRM has always said he is never specific about the exact thing you were just doing there with your numbers, so throw all that out the window, and realise that Ashara has just as much chance as being the missing piece as any other name you put forward.

Including Varys who contrary to what you think, does not need to know every single secret in the story.

It is obvious at least to me that Wylla, the Starfall servant was being used, so there's a Dayne connection right there. Gerold goes to find them. It's likely he asked the Daynes if they knew where his sworn brother may have been. And you know what, thousands of us can't all be hopelessly wrong, Ashara Dayne telling Ned actually fits into the story we all read. 

Heres the GRRM quote, honestly, don't try and figure out stuff like that, if distances seem suspect and don't fit in with your own ideas, just listen to George

"The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing.

My suggestion would be to put away the ruler and the stopwatch, and just enjoy the story."

So if that was the only reason it never made any sense for anybody outside KL to tell Ned, we've squashed that haven't we? So now it makes perfect sense again.

And also, doesn't your logic rely on the belief that Rhaegar was blabbing his mouth off out loud to anybody who would listen in the red keep about Lyannas whereabouts? What if we say he just didn't tell nobody and focused on the job at hand, training the Crownlands levies for the war. 

So i think it's certainly more like you have to prove Varys knew, not that I have to disprove it.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 14/10/2016 at 5:40 PM, Greywater-Watch said:

I would assume that Barristan Selmy was informed about the whereabouts of the 4 of the Kingsguard not at the battle of the Trident.

He swore fielty to Robert Baratheon (either after his capture at the Trident or the death of Aerys II).

This is something I have long suspected. 

Barristan and Jaime are the only KG remaining in KL when Rhaegar returns after leaving Lyanna at the ToJ with Dayne,Whent & Hightower. Of these two Barristan is the senior, and Rhaegar takes him with him to the Trident. Where they travel together, side by side; no one stays silent during a march to war, secrets are spilled & confidences are made as are arrangements for if the worst should happen.

Barristan has served as a KG since the year Rhaegar was born. Meaning he has watched the boy grow up and protected him his whole life. Meaning he is highly likely emotionally invested in the boy/man and Rhaegar has reason to trust him. Rhaegar logically has to inform someone where Lyanna and the other KG are, as dying in battle is a very real possibility. I think it is only logical that Rhaegar told Selmy where Lyanna was. And that it was Barristan Selmy who told Ned where to look for his sister.  It certainly makes a lot of sense. 

Also Barristan knows Rhaegar Loved his lady Lyanna. He thinks this in his own private thoughts, meaning it is without exaggeration bias, he isn't trying to big up Rhaegar to Dany here he is simply recollecting. He knows Rhaegar loved her. Which I think implies Rhaegar told him he did. If he told him he loved her, what else did he tell him? 

Another factor is the fact that Dany has a story of Lyanna & Rhaegar, she thinks about what she has been told of them on her way to the wedding to Hizdhar. She thinks that if Daario truly loved her he would come and carry her off at swordpoint as Rhaegar did his Northern Girl. So someone was telling her this story growing up. either Viserys though he was only 8 when the rebellion occured so I doubt Rhaegar told his little brother first hand of how he claimed his lady love. Or Darry told them both of the tale, he was master of arms at the red keep. And he took flight with Viserys and Rhaella. Might Rhaella have confided in her last loyal knight of her sons actions? Somehow the story got transferred to Dany. Meaning the entire shit show was less of a top secret than many readers assume. 

Also worth noting is the fact Hightower somehow knew where to find them too. It is assumed Aerys had no knowledge of his sons whereabouts. But do we actually have in text or an SSM to prove that? Might his mother had known where their son was all along, and confided in her KG Capt when the need for her sons return became obvious?