Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

[devilish]

11 hours ago, tugela said:

No, because telling Ned would not have been a big deal at the time, but failing to tell Robert, the new king, most certainly would since that was the reason he went to war in the first place. If Jaime later on wanted to brag about it the very real risk would be that he might find his head on the end of a pike, since failing to tell the king about Lyanna's whereabouts would have been clear treason. The same would apply to Ned, they both had strong incentive to keep quite about that. Plus, Rhaegar was his friend, so he would have had loyalty there and had a desire to protect his lover. Jaime was not a dishonorable man, in spite of his flaws.

What is more curious however is that Robert never enquired as to how Ned came about the information regarding where Lyanna was, nor did he ask what exactly happened. So the book is not exactly logical in how that was dealt with.

 

First of all Robert would never send the golden boy's head on a spike. Grand dad was financing Robert's lousy existence and KL was his oyster. Robert knew too well not to upset the old man as he could have him killed anytime, any place. If Cersei could do it, then imagine what Tywin could do. 

Secondly Jamie (at least during that period) wasn't the sort of person who cared alot of consequences. We're talking about a man who killed the King inside the King's castle, who repeatedly screwed the king's wife inside the King's castle, who threw a Lord Paramount's son from the window inside the Lord Paramount's castle and who wounded the hand of the king/Robert's best mate/ Robert's loyal Bitch in Kings landing. Do you seriously believe he would think twice of bragging about knowing Lyanna's location and telling it to Ned instead of the King? After all, what's so tragic in doing so? Ned was the first one to arrive in KL. He was the one representing the king as Robert was still tending to his wounds. What is so scandalous in telling Ned about Lyanna's location? Surely, loyal Ned would have relayed the information to the king wouldn't he?

 

[Bironic]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This is something I have long suspected. 

Barristan and Jaime are the only KG remaining in KL when Rhaegar returns after leaving Lyanna at the ToJ with Dayne,Whent & Hightower. Of these two Barristan is the senior, and Rhaegar takes him with him to the Trident. Where they travel together, side by side; no one stays silent during a march to war, secrets are spilled & confidences are made as are arrangements for if the worst should happen.

Barristan has served as a KG since the year Rhaegar was born. Meaning he has watched the boy grow up and protected him his whole life. Meaning he is highly likely emotionally invested in the boy/man and Rhaegar has reason to trust him. Rhaegar logically has to inform someone where Lyanna and the other KG are, as dying in battle is a very real possibility. I think it is only logical that Rhaegar told Selmy where Lyanna was. And that it was Barristan Selmy who told Ned where to look for his sister.  It certainly makes a lot of sense. 

Also Barristan knows Rhaegar Loved his lady Lyanna. He thinks this in his own private thoughts, meaning it is without exaggeration bias, he isn't trying to big up Rhaegar to Dany here he is simply recollecting. He knows Rhaegar loved her. Which I think implies Rhaegar told him he did. If he told him he loved her, what else did he tell him? 

Another factor is the fact that Dany has a story of Lyanna & Rhaegar, she thinks about what she has been told of them on her way to the wedding to Hizdhar. She thinks that if Daario truly loved her he would come and carry her off at swordpoint as Rhaegar did his Northern Girl. So someone was telling her this story growing up. either Viserys though he was only 8 when the rebellion occured so I doubt Rhaegar told his little brother first hand of how he claimed his lady love. Or Darry told them both of the tale, he was master of arms at the red keep. And he took flight with Viserys and Rhaella. Might Rhaella have confided in her last loyal knight of her sons actions? Somehow the story got transferred to Dany. Meaning the entire shit show was less of a top secret than many readers assume. 

Also worth noting is the fact Hightower somehow knew where to find them too. It is assumed Aerys had no knowledge of his sons whereabouts. But do we actually have in text or an SSM to prove that? Might his mother had known where their son was all along, and confided in her KG Capt when the need for her sons return became obvious?  

 

This means that Barristan Selmy betrayed his KG brothers, and I don't see him doing that. He never has inner monologue about passing the info, but he has a lot of inner monologue about ashara, about rhaegar etc.  If in fact he did he would be a big hypocrite. It would make for good drama though, especially if someone tells Dany...

Interesting Notion, but I lean towards ashara Dayne slipping the info on both Gerold and Ned. She was Arthurs sister and Elias handmaiden so if Arthur or Elia knew about the TOJ (after all they were Rhaegars wife and best buddy), she is the most likely to know.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Barristan was a traitor, he submitted to Robert and hailed him his King. According to the other three KG he is as much a false brother at this point as Jaime is. 

the war is lost, Robert is King and Ned just wants to bring his little sister home at this point. I absolutely think Barristan would privately inform him where to find her. 

 

[devilish]

6 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Barristan was a traitor, he submitted to Robert and hailed him his King. According to the other three KG he is as much a false brother at this point as Jaime is. 

the war is lost, Robert is King and Ned just wants to bring his little sister home at this point. I absolutely think Barristan would privately inform him where to find her. 

 

If Selmy knew about Jon then he would have told everything to Robert or at least to Danny

[bent branch]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You know, as soon as somebody starts using distances and time taken to travel, that's where I get the idea they are stretching to suit their own belief. GRRM has always said he is never specific about the exact thing you were just doing there with your numbers, so throw all that out the window, and realise that Ashara has just as much chance as being the missing piece as any other name you put forward.

Including Varys who contrary to what you think, does not need to know every single secret in the story.

It is obvious at least to me that Wylla, the Starfall servant was being used, so there's a Dayne connection right there. Gerold goes to find them. It's likely he asked the Daynes if they knew where his sworn brother may have been. And you know what, thousands of us can't all be hopelessly wrong, Ashara Dayne telling Ned actually fits into the story we all read. 

Heres the GRRM quote, honestly, don't try and figure out stuff like that, if distances seem suspect and don't fit in with your own ideas, just listen to George

"The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing.

My suggestion would be to put away the ruler and the stopwatch, and just enjoy the story."

So if that was the only reason it never made any sense for anybody outside KL to tell Ned, we've squashed that haven't we? So now it makes perfect sense again.

And also, doesn't your logic rely on the belief that Rhaegar was blabbing his mouth off out loud to anybody who would listen in the red keep about Lyannas whereabouts? What if we say he just didn't tell nobody and focused on the job at hand, training the Crownlands levies for the war. 

So i think it's certainly more like you have to prove Varys knew, not that I have to disprove it.

You know, when people ignore the text is when I start thinking they are stretching to suit their own belief. Let's review a little bit shall we? We know from the text that Ned didn't expect to find the missing Kingsguard with Lyanna. From this we know that who ever informed Ned didn't tell him about the KG with Lyanna. Knowing this, why did Ned go to Ashara to find Lyanna? It might make sense for Ned to go ask Ashara if she knew where her brother was, but since Ned didn't think Arthur and Lyanna were in the same place, I have to ask you, why would Ned go to Ashara to find Lyanna? I am asking this question as someone who believes that Ashara was intimately involved with this conspiracy. But as far as I can tell from the text, there is no way that Ned would have thought of Ashara as someone who would know where Lyanna is. You are making the leap of Ashara being someone who would know where Lyanna is (which I agree with) to Ned knowing that Ashara is someone who could tell him where Lyanna is (which I disagree with). So Ned was informed by someone else.

Backing up for a bit, let's return to the idea of distance. GRRM has released maps and given an approximate size for the Westeros continent. He has said that Westeros is approximately the size of South America (or about 7 million square miles). If Ned was looking for Lyanna, he was wasting time going from one coast to another coast unless he had a good reason. Hell, if Ned just stopped and asked at each place along the way he would have found Lyanna about 300 miles before he got to Starfall. This large distance between ToJ and Starfall is one of the reasons Ned was considered such a good guy for personally returning the sword. With a newborn in tow it would have taken him at least a week to reach Starfall. But since you are unimpressed with the large distances involved, let's move on.

Ned stating that he did not expect to find the KG with Lyanna could be dismissed as part of the fever dream unless we consider who Ned took with him. Ned took only a few men with him and these men were more his friends than his best fighters. This suggests that Ned's surprise in the fever dream at finding the KG with Lyanna was an accurate reflection of his surprise in real life. The party that Ned took with him suggests that Ned wasn't certain what he would find when he reached Lyanna, but he wanted to consider her feelings by having only close acquaintances with him. This also backs up the idea that Ned was informed of Lyanna's whereabouts by an anonymous tip. Since he had no idea what he would find, it suggests that he wasn't able to ask questions of his informant. Exactly what you would expect if someone received an anonymous tip.

The fact that you can only imagine that Varys found out about Lyanna's whereabouts by Rhaegar blabbing is more a reflection of you. There are numerous ways Varys could have found out. Here are two: 1) One of Varys' birds heard Rhaegar tell someone where he had been; 2) Rhaegar could have told Varys himself (gasp). I provided one example of text indicating that Varys knew almost everything that happened in the Red Keep. I chose that piece of text because it is one I am familiar with and could find easily. There are lots of others in the novels. It is well established that Varys does indeed know just about everything that goes on within the Red Keep. It is also well established in the novels that the two places that Varys has a more difficult time monitoring are the godswood and Maegor's Holdfast. That Varys doesn't know everything if obviously true since one big conspiracy Varys missed was Joffrey and Janos Slynt's conspiracy to execute Ned. From the information we are given, it is reasonable to assume that the reason Varys didn't know was because the conspiracy was hatched within Maegor's Holdfast (where Joffrey's private quarters were). However, the reader is supposed to understand that Varys' failing in this instance was extremely rare. So you are right, Varys doesn't know everything, but it is also true that by saying Varys doesn't know everything you are giving yourself permission to make up anything you like.

Finally, the person who told Ned had to have been in KL. There is literally no one who was at Storm's End that would know anything about Lyanna at all. If we look at named people who were present in the months leading up to the fall of the Targaryens, there are surprisingly few people who made it through (although it appears Thoros was one). The people close to Rhaegar that might have known are Jaime, Barristan and Varys. That's it. Barristan had not returned to KL by the time Ned left. Jaime would have told his father not Ned. And so we are left with Varys.

On a side note, the idea that Benjen was aware of Lyanna running off with Rhaegar is extremely plausible. However, there is no evidence that anyone involved knew they'd end up at the ToJ, so Benjen is an unlikely candidate, although not impossible.

[Greywater-Watch]

29 minutes ago, Bironic said:

This means that Barristan Selmy betrayed his KG brothers, and I don't see him doing that. He never has inner monologue about passing the info, but he has a lot of inner monologue about ashara, about rhaegar etc.  If in fact he did he would be a big hypocrite. It would make for good drama though, especially if someone tells Dany...

Not necessarily, if I recall corectly he gives away bits and pieces of the past, either by inner monologue (many of those passing around his own honour/duty) or by telling Daenerys (focused to answer her questions or what he would like to tell her about, often shortened and broken off by her not really being interested to get the whole story). Why should he think that the branch of the Lyanna story in the ToJ should be of interest to her? He told Daenerys some fragments of Rhaegar having loved Lyanna, what he thought to be of interest to her.

[Greywater-Watch]

15 minutes ago, devilish said:

22 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

If Selmy knew about Jon then he would have told everything to Robert or at least to Danny

Selmy not necessarily knew all details (if a child had been born, if it was a male, which name it was given etc.). The important piece of information he could have passed to Eddard Stark (or Robert) was just that Lyanna was in the ToJ.

[Macgregor of the North]

@bent branch

You say yourself that you think Ashara knew yes? I also do and think she told Ned in some shape or form. That's my belief. So how am I stretching things to suit my belief? The only thing that has to be cleared up is how the info goes from A(Ashara, who you also believe has the info), to B(Ned, who we know receives the info from somewhere). 

Everything else, such as the how she lets Ned know is speculation until the truth comes out. Nothing is being stretched at my end to suit my belief. I am simply exploring avenues of possibility, and the fact you agree Ashara knew, makes your comment that I'm stretching things to suit my belief all the more strange.

Back to the distance and time it takes to travel thing. I see your still calculating how long trips take, which we have been specifically warned against by GRRM himself.

You can blab on about great distances and how long it takes to travel places etc etc but at the end of the day, if it turns out GRRM wants a certain thing to happen on page, anybody's calculations on how long 'they' think it would have took, or how impossible 'they' think the journey was etc etc, becomes a complete waste of 'their' time. 

So to conclude this. We agree Ashara knew. It's all in the details after that on how Ned finds out from her in my opinion. And we will get the details somehow. If your opinion is that she knew, but someone else told Ned, good for you, pursue that avenue.

And on the distances thing. You can't use your own calculations to debunk ANYTHING. Because GRRM could simply pull the ace card I showed in the quote to shoot it down and simply say, that's how it happened, put your ruler away and deal with it.

 

[Bironic]

20 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Not necessarily, if I recall corectly he gives away bits and pieces of the past, either by inner monologue (many of those passing around his own honour/duty) or by telling Daenerys (focused to answer her questions or what he would like to tell her about, often shortened and broken off by her not really being interested to get the whole story). Why should he think that the branch of the Lyanna story in the ToJ should be of interest to her? He told Daenerys some fragments of Rhaegar having loved Lyanna, what he thought to be of interest to her.

Don't know if I understand you, Are you saying that Barristan telling ned about the location of the KG and lyanna is not a betrayal?

If Barristan said to Ned after the battle of the trident: Hey you know your sister is with my KG buddys at the Tower of Joy between Reach and the prince pass to dorne.

How is that not betraying his sworn brothers?

46 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Barristan was a traitor, he submitted to Robert and hailed him his King. According to the other three KG he is as much a false brother at this point as Jaime is. 

the war is lost, Robert is King and Ned just wants to bring his little sister home at this point. I absolutely think Barristan would privately inform him where to find her. 

 

Well than we have a different opinion about Barristan. I don't think that he is so honorable as some picture him in these forums, but I don't hink he would go that far in his betrayal. If you accept Robert as King instead of Mad Aerys, doesnt mean that you have to betray your sworn bros as well.

But it would make Barristan a more grey character, which I would find interesting.

[Greywater-Watch]

23 minutes ago, Bironic said:

Don't know if I understand you, Are you saying that Barristan telling ned about the location of the KG and lyanna is not a betrayal?

If Barristan said to Ned after the battle of the trident: Hey you know your sister is with my KG buddys at the Tower of Joy between Reach and the prince pass to dorne.

How is that not betraying his sworn Brothers?

I am sorry, I was not precise enough in my answer. My words "Not necessarily" referred to the second half of Beronic's comment: Where he points out that during all of Selmy's monologues about the past he never mentioned Lyanna and the ToJ.

I did not have the intention to comment about Selmy betraying his KG Brothers or not.

[Macgregor of the North]

@bent branch

I didnt think it was ever made 100% clear that Ned never expected to find the KG there, or was surprised they were.

He expects to find them everywhere he has been so far yes, that is made clear. So he knows they aren't and weren't in all those previous places.

But what's to say that after all that, he never thought of the possibility they were going to be exactly where he found them, with his sister. 

It wouldn't have been hard to figure out that these three were protecting something/doing something of importance since they weren't at their previous posts Ned mentions. 

And since Lyanna was last known to have absconded with Rhaegar, it's not a stretch to assume Ned may have guessed what was really happening. I believe he already knew Lyanna left willingly with Rhaegar by the time of the Storms End siege. Something he was figuring out throughout the journey to Storms End with the help of Ethan Glover who I believe may have told him that Brandon suspected the same thing when he rode to KL. 

 

[bent branch]

14 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@bent branch

I didnt think it was ever made 100% clear that Ned never expected to find the KG there, or was surprised they were.

He expects to find them everywhere he has been so far yes, that is made clear. So he knows they aren't and weren't in all those previous places.

But what's to say that after all that, he never thought of the possibility they were going to be exactly where he found them, with his sister. 

It wouldn't have been hard to figure out that these three were protecting something/doing something of importance since they weren't at their previous posts Ned mentions. 

And since Lyanna was last known to have absconded with Rhaegar, it's not a stretch to assume Ned may have guessed what was really happening. I believe he already knew Lyanna left willingly with Rhaegar by the time of the Storms End siege. Something he was figuring out throughout the journey to Storms End with the help of Ethan Glover who I believe may have told him that Brandon suspected the same thing when he rode to KL. 

 

We know that Ned did not expect to find the missing KG and Lyanna in the same place because he didn't go prepared for a fight. This should be obvious.

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, bent branch said:

We know that Ned did not expect to find the missing KG and Lyanna in the same place because he didn't go prepared for a fight. This should be obvious.

He took superior odds. That's obvious. And he couldn't take an army because he was being secretive. Remember, he doesn't want Robert knowing what he knows/suspects.

Ned takes six guys. All armed. It's as secretive as he can be while being safe enough to be able to get to Lyanna.

Why do you think Ned was surprised to see the three KG there?  I don't get that from the text. Can you quote the surprised reaction? Or the piece of text that shows him being surprised to find them there?.

Also, Ned can be a tad silly with decisions but the mans no fool. He can figure things out, and that's what I think he did with all the bits of info he had. 

When Ned arrives, both parties know what the other is there for, I thought that was obvious.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 minutes ago, bent branch said:

We know that Ned did not expect to find the missing KG and Lyanna in the same place because he didn't go prepared for a fight. This should be obvious.

Ned was prepared for a fight alright.

And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. 
"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

3 hours ago, devilish said:

If Selmy knew about Jon then he would have told everything to Robert or at least to Danny

Who said anything about knowing about Jon?  

I only said that I think Rhaegar told Barristan where Lyanna and the other three KG were. And that it is likely that he told Ned where to find his sister. 

 

 

[devilish]

3 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Who said anything about knowing about Jon?  

I only said that I think Rhaegar told Barristan where Lyanna and the other three KG were. And that it is likely that he told Ned where to find his sister. 

 

 

Same thing. Why would Selmy hide the location of Lyanna to Robert?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 hours ago, Bironic said:

Well than we have a different opinion about Barristan. I don't think that he is so honorable as some picture him in these forums, but I don't hink he would go that far in his betrayal. If you accept Robert as King instead of Mad Aerys, doesnt mean that you have to betray your sworn bros as well.

But it would make Barristan a more grey character, which I would find interesting.

I think Barristan is as flawed as anyone else is. He surrendered after the Trident, and I would not see him informing Ned as to where he could locate his sister as betraying the other three KG, and I doubt he'd see it as that.

That only works as a betrayal IF he knew Lyanna had given birth and that that child was a true born Targaryen son of Rhaegar.  And I think assuming he knew that is an assumption too far. And that he knew the other three would not lay down their arms and would in fact prevent Ned Stark from taking Lyanna home. In favour of seeking to crown her child and serve as his KG.  Barristan can not have known that would be the outcome. 

But the idea that Barristan, upon believing the war lost and all claimants to the throne nonviable ie: Viserys and Rhaella are fled Rhaegar & his children are dead. Would quietly inform Ned of Lyanna's whereabouts seems totally believable, the man is not unkind, he has compassion. And I think it is well within his character to give Ned the information he would have so desperately wanted.  And that he would assume the other KG would simply allow him to take her home. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

6 minutes ago, devilish said:

Same thing. Why would Selmy hide the location of Lyanna to Robert?

erm, well....men they get a bit aggressive when they find their perfect virgin bride has been "soiled".  And the fact that she opened her legs willingly for the man who he just fought to the death and whose butchered children he has styled as Dragon Spawn. Well I doubt it would go over too well with Robert. Best to just discretely tell her brother where to find her and let him broker the news to Robert that she was a willing participant, and or allow the siblings to concoct a lie to appease him.  But no sending A mad and angry Robert to find her when the poor girl will be grieving her lover not a great idea. 

 

 

[devilish]

10 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

erm, well....men they get a bit aggressive when they find their perfect virgin bride has been "soiled".  And the fact that she opened her legs willingly for the man who he just fought to the death and whose butchered children he has styled as Dragon Spawn. Well I doubt it would go over too well with Robert. Best to just discretely tell her brother where to find her and let him broker the news to Robert that she was a willing participant, and or allow the siblings to concoct a lie to appease him.  But no sending A mad and angry Robert to find her when the poor girl will be grieving her lover not a great idea. 

 

 

Its not Selmy's problem  isn't it? Also since when the Bold had developed a taste of doing the right thing rather then just obey his kennel master's voice? He certainly didn't shared that sort of high morals when people were being bbqed by Aerys or when he kept bending the knee to a different king and queen, again, and again and again

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Just now, devilish said:

Its not Selmy's problem how Robert would take it though isn't it? Also since when the Bold had developed a taste of doing the right thing rather then obey his kennel master's voice? He certainly didn't shared that sort of high morals when people were bbqed or when he kept bending the knee to a different king and queen, again, and again and again

Barristan absolutely has a sense of chivalry! Sure he bent the knee to Robert, but that absolutely does not mean that he'd tell all about Lyanna's whereabouts to the man when he has just seen the carcasses's of Rhaegars children laid at his feet and heard his reaction, when he likely knew the girl had loved her prince and gone willingly with him, when he knew that now that she is "used goods" Robert can't possibly make her his Queen, likely won't want to anyway, and that her fate at this point looks grim as dish water. With the only thing saving her from being sent to the silent sisters for wantonness likely being Ned's relationship with Robert.  Barristan isn't Hightower, who stood and listened whilst Rhaella was raped and abused. He might be a KG but the man has a heart and he has a sense of right & wrong. We as a reader can tell this through being in his POV.