Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

[Macgregor of the North]

48 minutes ago, Geddus said:

He probably knew, or at least suspected, Dayne and Whent were with the prince, he was their Lord Commander after all: he couldn't ask them but he could talk to their families and see if they knew anything. Ned could have done the same thing - and it all comes back to Ashara and the Daynes, who I'm pretty sure know something about that whole affair.

I doubt Varys told Hightower, or anyone really, because I don't see how he could have known.

I'm with you on that. I'm quite sure Gerold knew that Arthur and Oswell were with Rhaegar and still would be as they still had not been seen. 

And yup, your correct. It comes back to the Daynes. Aside from Arthur's obvious involvement, other members of the Houses involvement in all this is of course possible. 

[Bael's Bastard]

For now I don't believe that Rhaegar's connection to or intentions in regard to the TOJ were common knowledge to either the royalists or the rebels in general. I think it was a secret which only those in Rhaegar's small group of close friends and confidants would have been told, and not necessarily all in that already small group.

Accordingly, I think both Gerold Hightower and Ned Stark had to find out about it from information that originated with someone in that small group. I think Hightower most likely found out directly from someone in that small group, while Ned most likely found out found out from someone whose information came (whether directly or indirectly) from someone in that small group.

We don't know for sure the identities of the half a dozen of Rhaegar's closest friends and confidants that had taken to the road with him after the Year of the False Spring. We also don't know what each of them knew about the TOJ, or Rhaegar's intentions with the TOJ, or at what point in the journey they broke off from Rhaegar, whether before or after they went to the TOJ.

The World Book indicates that Jon Connington, Myles Mooton, Richard Lonmouth, Lewyn Martell, Arthur Dayne, and Oswell Whent were among Rhaegar's supporters, friends, confidants, friends, and/or allies. We can't be certain that all of these were among the half a dozen closest friends and confidants that set off with him, but they are the most likely we know of for now.

Assuming for the sake of argument that these were Rhaegar's half dozen, only Dayne and Whent seem like they may have never returned to King's Landing again. Connington and Martell did for sure. Mooton seems likely to have, and Lonmouth is at least a possibility, since his life after the tourney at Harrenhal is a mystery. But I think Connington and Martell alone make for interesting possibilities.

When it comes to Hightower, I think there is a good chance he was told about the TOJ by Connington or Martell. I almost want to lean more toward Martell. I don't think Varys was a source for Hightower. If Varys ever learned of it during the war, I think he learned of it via his birds or disguises when or after Hightower was informed.

When it comes to Ned, I think the best case against the idea that Ned found out about the TOJ while in KL is that he carried out at least one major task after leaving KL and before going to the TOJ. I am not sold that that means he didn't find out at KL, but I do think that represents the best case against it. For me KL is the absolutely earliest I see Ned learning, but I also see the possibility that he learned later.

Based on the above, I do think a good case could probably be made for Ashara, in that she may have had connections to more than one of the people most likely to have known about the TOJ. She could have possibly learned about it at some point (perhaps even early on in the whole scheme) from her brother Arthur. She could have possibly learned about it at some point from Lewyn, or perhaps from Elia if Lewyn told her.

There's still so much unknown that there still seems to be a number of possibilities. But I lean toward the TOJ being a secret to the royalists and rebels in general, and known among Rhaegar's small group and those they may have spilled the beans to (intentionally or unintentionally). And I lean toward Hightower learning directly from one of Rhaegar's small group, and Ned learning from someone who learned it from one of Rhaegar's small group.

[Tini]

On ‎23‎.‎10‎.‎2016 at 5:27 AM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Major  crackpot / tinfoil theory , it was RHAEGER . People has often wondered why Robert thinks  Rhaegar was raping Lyanna over and over again , he named the place where he was keeping Lyanna, the Tower of Joy . The name sounds like a brothel  to me. It was a common custom hurl insult at an opponent during a duel . Originally it could have been called the Young Dragon' s Tower or Tower of the Torrentine , as long as they knew the original name , most of the lords would know where to go .

Whatever Robert thought about the tower's name, what is so crackpot about Rhaegar letting Ned know? He knew Lyanna's location.
As did anyone else at the Tower of Joy. So the information may have come from him, the Kingsguard at the Tower - or from Lyanna herself.

The question would be why, and how.

Why?

Even in their remote love nest, they had news of the war. It was the reason Rhaegar left Lyanna, and died fighting Robert Baratheon's host. Rhaegar knew what was going on in the world, Ser Oswell, Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur knew. The only question is how much Lyanna knew - and when she found out.

Lyanna's disappearance implicated Rhaegar, led to Rhaegar's father killing Lyanna's father, and brother. It kicked off the civil war that would destroy Rhaegar's family. Letting Ned know where Lyanna was could've been an attempt to stop the war. Especially if Lyanna wasn't abducted, but eloped of her own free will.

If that was the case, the message reached Ned too late to make a difference. Maybe the messenger couldn't find Ned. Or maybe the message went to Winterfell instead, to Benjen - and Benjen didn't or couldn't pass it on in time. That might explain why Benjen later joined the NW - atoning for his mistake.

Lyanna might even have sent a message without knowing what her disappearance set in motion - just to make sure her family wouldn't worry. There is no indication that she was a prisoner, and she wasn't the entire time ill, or dying. She may have found someone willing to carry a message for her in the vicinity of the Tower of Joy - and Ned was then just tracing the message back to its origin.

.

[Bironic]

5 hours ago, Tini said:

Whatever Robert thought about the tower's name, what is so crackpot about Rhaegar letting Ned know?

Even in their remote love nest, they had news of the war. It was the reason Rhaegar left Lyanna, and died fighting Robert Baratheon's host. Rhaegar knew what was going on in the world, Ser Oswell, Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur knew. The only question is how much Lyanna knew - and when she found out.

Lyanna's disappearance implicated Rhaegar, led to Rhaegar's father killing Lyanna's father, and brother. It kicked off the civil war that would destroy Rhaegar's family. Letting Ned know where Lyanna was could've been an attempt to stop the war. Especially if Lyanna wasn't abducted, but eloped of her own free will.

If that was the case, the message reached Ned too late to make a difference. Maybe the messenger couldn't find Ned. Or maybe the message went to Winterfell instead, to Benjen - and Benjen didn't or couldn't pass it on in time. That might explain why Benjen later joined the NW - atoning for his mistake.

Lyanna might even have sent a message without knowing what her disappearance set in motion - just to make sure her family wouldn't worry. There is no indication that she was a prisoner, and she wasn't the entire time ill, or dying. She may have found someone willing to carry a message for her in the vicinity of the Tower of Joy - and Ned was then just tracing the message back to its origin.

.

How do you know that Rhaegar had news of the war? We don't have any POV at the Tower of Joy. Rhaegar left Lyanna when his father summoned him via Gerold Hightower to KL to help the war effort. If Rhaegar knew about the war, why was he still sitting in the ToJ when things changed from bad to worse during the early stages of the Rebellion?

How could a message not reach Ned? Ned wasn't the guy who hid himself in a remote Tower. It was known that he was at the Eyrie first and it was quite certainly known that he married at Riverrun with a northern army at his back.

Besides if anyone on Aerys court would have found out that Rhaegar or Lyanna were trying to reach out to Ned, they would have been killed for treason. Varys and Aerys' lickspittles would have seen to that.

Agree with you on Benjen, he might have joined the NW because he was somehow involved in the whole Lyanna-Rhaegar thing. I think he knew that she eloped and didn't tell Ned and/or Brandon the whole truth.

[Tini]

37 minutes ago, Bironic said:

How do you know that Rhaegar had news of the war? We don't have any POV at the Tower of Joy. Rhaegar left Lyanna when his father summoned him via Gerold Hightower to KL to help the war effort. If Rhaegar knew about the war, why was he still sitting in the ToJ when things changed from bad to worse during the early stages of the Rebellion?

How could a message not reach Ned? Ned wasn't the guy who hid himself in a remote Tower. It was known that he was at the Eyrie first and it was quite certainly known that he married at Riverrun with a northern army at his back.

Besides if anyone on Aerys court would have found out that Rhaegar or Lyanna were trying to reach out to Ned, they would have been killed for treason. Varys and Aerys' lickspittles would have seen to that.

Agree with you on Benjen, he might have joined the NW because he was somehow involved in the whole Lyanna-Rhaegar thing. I think he knew that she eloped and didn't tell Ned and/or Brandon the whole truth.

You said it yourself - his father summoned Rhaegar to help with the war effort. At this time Rhaegar would've learned what was going on in his absence even if he didn't before.

Ned was in the Eyrie, in Winterfell, in Riverrun, he collected a host - he wasn't static, he moved. But until he started moving with his host, he'd move discreetly - to make sure that he wouldn't attract the attention of some Targaryen loyalists. The distances between these places suggest that he would be on the road for more than a few hours, or even days - he'd be on the road for weeks, even months. And while his friends and co-conspirators might know where he planned to go, a messenger from the Tower of Joy wouldn't. (And the there is the question how fast that message would move, especially in winter. If Lyanna asked a tinker to deliver a message for her, that message might travel for months before reaching its destination.)

Unless Rhaegar and Lyanna sent the message through the court, it's unlikely Aerys and his lickspittles would've found out. 

But who knows? Maybe Rhaegar sent his father a message informing him he was staying at the Tower of Joy. Ned knew that Lyanna went with Rhaegar. If he found such a message in the royal quarters in King's Landing, he might have decided to check up.

[bent branch]

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 10:25 PM, Kingmonkey said:

How do you account for Ned claiming "...the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all the knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them", if he thought they had gone to Dragonstone? 

You're reading that dialogue too literally if you can't see the alternative. The places that Ned claims he thought they might be are all places that duty and honour imply they ought to have been. Yet they were not there. Ned isn't really idly listing the places he'd previously assumed they might be, he's trying to get them to admit what it is they were actually doing that kept them away from those places. The replies they give reinforce the point, as they proclaim themselves true with each challenge, yet continue to refuse to explain what it was they were doing that overrode their duty to be at those other places. 

Here again is the quote from the books, I'll give my interpretation in red after each:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them. (I expected to see you at the Trident.)

"Woe to the Ursurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jamie slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were." (Since you weren't at the Trident, I expected to see you in KL guarding the Royal Family.)

"Far away," said Ser Gerold, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in the seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all the knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them." (When I went to Storm's End to end the last armed resistance and end the war, I expected to see you there.)(Ned used the word certain here not because someone had told him, but because he did not expect the KG to give up until the very end.)

"Our knees do not bend so easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him." (Since all resistance had ended within Westeros and they still not bent the knee, Ned assumed they must have gone in exile with Willem Darry, the queen and Viserys.)

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained Ser Gerold.

And there it ends. Ned's last thought is that they had gone into exile. He did not expect to find them within Westeros or with his sister. I'm not exactly certain why people are having such a hard time with this interpretation since it is this interpretation that supports R+L=J.

I would like to see anyone show me how this is interpreted to mean that Ned believed the KG were with Lyanna.

[bent branch]

11 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You won't find any evidence that Ned could have found out that the KG never went to Dragonstone at any other time than after the sack, at Kings landing, before Storms End. 

And you wont find any evidence that the the KG had any reason to be at Storms End, because they had no reason, Ned knows this. With all the places he is mentioning he is basically giving the KG an opportunity to admit why they are there, and not other places they 'could' have been, as Ned already strongly suspects their reason, and is not surprised to find them there at all. To me, personally, this is quite obvious.

You have taken the fever dream too literal I believe and I'm quite sure GRRM has warned us against that in a sense in an SSM:

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

All the evidence of what Ned thought about the KG has already been given. There will be no further thoughts from the dead Ned in future books. The mystery of the ToJ is not what Ned was thinking, but what was going on. I am not dwelling on Ned's thoughts at the ToJ. I am moving on to other issues. You, however, are free to wait for a dead man if you want to.

[bent branch]

8 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

For now I don't believe that Rhaegar's connection to or intentions in regard to the TOJ were common knowledge to either the royalists or the rebels in general. I think it was a secret which only those in Rhaegar's small group of close friends and confidants would have been told, and not necessarily all in that already small group.

Accordingly, I think both Gerold Hightower and Ned Stark had to find out about it from information that originated with someone in that small group. I think Hightower most likely found out directly from someone in that small group, while Ned most likely found out found out from someone whose information came (whether directly or indirectly) from someone in that small group.

We don't know for sure the identities of the half a dozen of Rhaegar's closest friends and confidants that had taken to the road with him after the Year of the False Spring. We also don't know what each of them knew about the TOJ, or Rhaegar's intentions with the TOJ, or at what point in the journey they broke off from Rhaegar, whether before or after they went to the TOJ.

The World Book indicates that Jon Connington, Myles Mooton, Richard Lonmouth, Lewyn Martell, Arthur Dayne, and Oswell Whent were among Rhaegar's supporters, friends, confidants, friends, and/or allies. We can't be certain that all of these were among the half a dozen closest friends and confidants that set off with him, but they are the most likely we know of for now.

Assuming for the sake of argument that these were Rhaegar's half dozen, only Dayne and Whent seem like they may have never returned to King's Landing again. Connington and Martell did for sure. Mooton seems likely to have, and Lonmouth is at least a possibility, since his life after the tourney at Harrenhal is a mystery. But I think Connington and Martell alone make for interesting possibilities.

When it comes to Hightower, I think there is a good chance he was told about the TOJ by Connington or Martell. I almost want to lean more toward Martell. I don't think Varys was a source for Hightower. If Varys ever learned of it during the war, I think he learned of it via his birds or disguises when or after Hightower was informed.

When it comes to Ned, I think the best case against the idea that Ned found out about the TOJ while in KL is that he carried out at least one major task after leaving KL and before going to the TOJ. I am not sold that that means he didn't find out at KL, but I do think that represents the best case against it. For me KL is the absolutely earliest I see Ned learning, but I also see the possibility that he learned later.

Based on the above, I do think a good case could probably be made for Ashara, in that she may have had connections to more than one of the people most likely to have known about the TOJ. She could have possibly learned about it at some point (perhaps even early on in the whole scheme) from her brother Arthur. She could have possibly learned about it at some point from Lewyn, or perhaps from Elia if Lewyn told her.

There's still so much unknown that there still seems to be a number of possibilities. But I lean toward the TOJ being a secret to the royalists and rebels in general, and known among Rhaegar's small group and those they may have spilled the beans to (intentionally or unintentionally). And I lean toward Hightower learning directly from one of Rhaegar's small group, and Ned learning from someone who learned it from one of Rhaegar's small group.

You and I are in complete agreement on several issues. The first is that Hightower had to find out about the ToJ from someone within Rhaegar's small group of intimates. Second, that Ned did not necessarily find out about the ToJ from the same person as Hightower did. The person who informed Ned did not have to be one of Rhaegar's intimates.

You give me a lot of hope in that you are approaching the question from the angle I do. Who knew what, when, etc.

My criteria are:

1)  Informant is a named character. Ex: I don't think it was scullery maid #3.

2)  Informant was in a position in order to learn the information. Ex: Stannis was holed up in Storm's End, so it probably wasn't him.

3)  Informant survived the war through KL. Ex: It may be possible that Ned was left a note by someone who died, but the mechanism of how that would work is pretty obscure.

4)  Informant was willing to share the information with Ned. Ex: If Jaime knew, I doubt he would have told Ned.

Because Ned did not know the KG would be there, I think either 1) the informant was not one of Rhaegar's intimates and got the information second hand; or 2) the informant slipped Ned an anonymous note so Ned couldn't ask for additional information; or 3) both.

It seems like the things we most disagree on is where Ned received the information and whether Ned was being secretive when he took only six men with him. I think because Storm's End was the literal end of the war (supposedly all combatants had bent the knee or fled) Ned didn't think he needed to take more. Anyhow, what I have been researching is what routes Ned could have taken to Starfall and the ToJ and what provisioning would have been necessary. I think Ned only took six men because provisioning for a trip into Dorne would have been difficult at the end of the war and would have taken more time than Ned wanted to.

Anyhow, from all of this my non-crackpot choice is Varys. My crackpot choice is Thoros. Although we are told Thoros was a foreign dignitary attached to Aerys court, it wasn't until he told the story of being in the throne room when Elia and the children were presented to Robert that it really sank in that Thoros was there to see everything.

[Macgregor of the North]

8 hours ago, bent branch said:

All the evidence of what Ned thought about the KG has already been given. There will be no further thoughts from the dead Ned in future books. The mystery of the ToJ is not what Ned was thinking, but what was going on. I am not dwelling on Ned's thoughts at the ToJ. I am moving on to other issues. You, however, are free to wait for a dead man if you want to.

So I take it that means you are waving the white flag and admitting you took the whole dream as 100% literal and have been wrong with your assumptions about what's going on at the Tower of Joy yes?

[Macgregor of the North]

@bent branch

Quote

Because Ned did not know the KG would be there,

How can you possibly be so certain of that?. Where is that ever confirmed?

[Livesundersink]

24 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@bent branch

How can you possibly be so certain of that?. Where is that ever confirmed?

He might be referring to how Ned thought they had fled to Dragonstone with Willam Darry

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, Livesundersink said:

He might be referring to how Ned thought they had fled to Dragonstone with Willam Darry

Read the last few pages on this thread to get up to speed. I don't mean that in a cheeky way btw. But this has been quite a debate and we have covered all that. If you read the last few pages you will see where we're at with the discussion.

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, bent branch said:

Here again is the quote from the books, I'll give my interpretation in red after each:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them. (I expected to see you at the Trident.)

"Woe to the Ursurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jamie slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were." (Since you weren't at the Trident, I expected to see you in KL guarding the Royal Family.)

"Far away," said Ser Gerold, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in the seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all the knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them." (When I went to Storm's End to end the last armed resistance and end the war, I expected to see you there.)(Ned used the word certain here not because someone had told him, but because he did not expect the KG to give up until the very end.)

"Our knees do not bend so easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him." (Since all resistance had ended within Westeros and they still not bent the knee, Ned assumed they must have gone in exile with Willem Darry, the queen and Viserys.)

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained Ser Gerold.

And there it ends. Ned's last thought is that they had gone into exile. He did not expect to find them within Westeros or with his sister. I'm not exactly certain why people are having such a hard time with this interpretation since it is this interpretation that supports R+L=J.

I would like to see anyone show me how this is interpreted to mean that Ned believed the KG were with Lyanna.

You are one stubborn cookie. 

Why cant you grasp that you are NOT supposed to take this dream 100% literally word for word? I think you do yourself a disservice really if I'm honest. You have missed a key part of the books by reading it in this fashion.

We are not supposed to take this as a completely literal interpretation here.

Your order doesn't make sense for a start.

Ned would have found out that the KG never left for Dragonstone when he was at KL during the sack. It's one of the first things anybody would have done. Enquire about the three dangerous badass missing KG. He would have been told they weren't here, and never fled with Rhaella to Dragonstone. That's the only time Ned could have found that out.

So, off he goes to Storms End. He says(in the non literal fever dream) he expects to see them there. Why? Why on earth would three KG be at Storms End banqueting with the Tyrell's and Redwynes outside of Stannis walls???? Especially when they could have been everywhere else that duty bound them too, including Dragonstone, which he already knows they are not at.

Then, he goes on to say(in the non literal fever dream) that after not seeing them at Storms End(which they had no place at) he expected to see them fled to Dragonstone, but! He already knows this. He has been at KL, the place to get that news. He's already picked up that info.

So, conclusion.

By the time Ned gets there, he knows they will be there, they know why he's there, and he knows why they are there, and they know he knows... You get the picture lol.

Next up a little game of show and tell is played out just for us in the form of a non literal fever dream. It's meant to show us that Ned is telling the KG that "look, you could have been all that places but your here, doing as I suspected you would be doing". Ned has figured out what's going on by this time. 

And contrary to what you say earlier in the thread, Ned is prepared to fight. He always was, he just wants to see if the KG will admit why they are there first.

He took superior odds, all armed. Ready to take Lyanna by force if needs be, which he knew there would be need as these are no ordinary three, they do not flee when they swear a vow, which they did. To Rhaegar.

"Now it ends". 

[Charlie Hustle]

or could it be just word of mouth? Especially when the natives see kingsguards just chillin at a random location its easy to assume that that they are protecting something or someone important there. Right?

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I assume that Lyanna herself sent a message to Ned, when she realized what her elope has triggered. I don't think she would just chill in ToJ knowing that her father and brother are dead and her other brother and fiance are at war.

I still wonder how Starks learned that Lyanna was with Rhaegar in the first place. 

[Kingmonkey]

19 hours ago, bent branch said:

I would like to see anyone show me how this is interpreted to mean that Ned believed the KG were with Lyanna.

To expand on @Macgregor of the North's post above,

Consider the replies of the 3KG. Should we take them literally? At the Trident would 40,003 men have won where 40,000 lost? Would the the three of them have defeated the entire Lannister army at King's Landing? Nope. It's all hyperbole. 

So consider what Ned is actually saying.

Trident: Wouldn't duty require them to be there, like the rest of the KG who weren't guarding Aerys at the time? Particularly when Rhaegar, who Dayne & Whent were so close to, died there?

King's Landing: Wouldn't duty require them to defend their king at the last? That is the job of the KG after all.

Storm's End: When the last battle was lost and the Targ cause ended, wouldn't the KG's duty have also ended?

Dragonstone: If the 3KG were continuing the fight when all else had given up, wouldn't duty require them to be with the sole surviving Targs?

Ned never actually asks a question, but he makes four very pointed statements. Each one addresses the actions that those three men could be expected to have felt duty-bound to take as members of the Kingsguard, but that they did not take.

The responses the 3KG give to each of these four statements is basically the same: they state that if they HAD been doing their duty, they'd have done it really well -- yet instead they were "far away" -- doing something more important than those obvious things that their duty implies they should have done. What that is, they refuse to say -- beyond "we swore a vow". 

This isn't an exchange of information, it's verbal sparring. Ned knows perfectly well that they were not doing their expected duties, and is trying to get them to reveal why. What was so important that they neglected their more obvious duties? What was worth letting Rhaegar and Aerys die for? Unlike the war for the throne, their battle is not over. That's why they didn't bend the knee at Storm's End. Yet it's not that they are continuing the fight -- that's why they didn't go with Viserys. They are doing something else. 

The nature of Ned's dialogue, the pointedness of his statements, indicates that Ned is perfectly aware that they were up to something secret. Dayne and Whent were Rhaegar's men. The last of them, mysteriously hiding when they would be expected to be in all of those other places. Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Lyanna is still missing, the 3KG are still missing. It would hardly be a surprise to find still missing Lyanna and the still missing remainder of Rhaegar's forces, the only people to have not yet given up the fight or fled, to be in the same place. The only mystery to Ned is why they are still doing this when they had to abandon such important duties to do so, and when the battle is already lost.

[Targaryen Barbarian]

Lewyn told Elia, Elia told Ashara, Ashara told Ned.

All IMHO of course.

[Clegane'sPup]

Is it possible Ethan Glover, Brandon’s squire had information about Lyanna?  Squires from what I have read in the novels, ride with & assist their man. Could Ethan have overheard something?

I am unsure of how Brandon was informed about Lyanna. That also means that I am unsure of who informed Brandon about Lyanna. Was Ethan by Brandon’s side when Brandon received the news about Lyanna?

Why was Ethan the only one to survive death at KL? I guess that means that he was simply forgotten about and left alone in the dungeon until after the sack of KL. Somehow Brandon’s squire, Ethan, ends up riding with Eddard to Rhaegar’s tower of joy.

I find it very difficult to believe that Lyanna was alone when Rhaegar “fell upon her”. I speculate Benjen & the little crannog man were with her. Rhaegar supposedly had the help of Dayne & Whent.

The Lyanna dilemma caused Brandon to rush to KL. The deaths of the northmen and a demand for Eddard’s & Robert’s heads led to the opening of Robert’s Rebellion.

After Eddard left the Eyrie and worked his way back to WF to call his banners he went to the Stoney Sept, Riverrun (to get married), the Trident (Robert battles Rhaegar and Rhaegar dies), KL and Storms End before venturing to Rhaegars tower of joy.

When Eddard left KL after the sack did he have Ethan Glover in tow? Ethan, Brandon’s squire, the guy that seems to have been left down in the dungeons to rot. I would really like to hear speculation as to how or why this squire survived the ordeal at KL.

When Rheagar “fell upon“ Lyanna, if I remember correctly it is an app note or WB note or maybe both, that states Rhaegar “fell upon “ her, he had the help of Dayne & Whent, and that she was supposedly near the area of Harrenhal.

Dayne & Whent supposedly helped Rhaegar whisk Lyanna away. Where and when did Hightower join the group?

According to Jaime (CoK) Hightower was present at the death of the Stark father and son. According to an entry on wiki using the app as a reference, sometime after the Battle of the Bells, Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar. Rhaegar returned to KL but Hightower did not.

Is it possible Brandon’s squire, Ethan Glover, had knowledge about Lyanna’s whereabouts? Could he have told Eddard?

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I still wonder how Starks learned that Lyanna was with Rhaegar in the first place. 

me 2

[bent branch]

1 hour ago, Kingmonkey said:

To expand on @Macgregor of the North's post above,

Consider the replies of the 3KG. Should we take them literally? At the Trident would 40,003 men have won where 40,000 lost? Would the the three of them have defeated the entire Lannister army at King's Landing? Nope. It's all hyperbole. 

So consider what Ned is actually saying.

Trident: Wouldn't duty require them to be there, like the rest of the KG who weren't guarding Aerys at the time? Particularly when Rhaegar, who Dayne & Whent were so close to, died there?

King's Landing: Wouldn't duty require them to defend their king at the last? That is the job of the KG after all.

Storm's End: When the last battle was lost and the Targ cause ended, wouldn't the KG's duty have also ended?

Dragonstone: If the 3KG were continuing the fight when all else had given up, wouldn't duty require them to be with the sole surviving Targs?

Ned never actually asks a question, but he makes four very pointed statements. Each one addresses the actions that those three men could be expected to have felt duty-bound to take as members of the Kingsguard, but that they did not take.

The responses the 3KG give to each of these four statements is basically the same: they state that if they HAD been doing their duty, they'd have done it really well -- yet instead they were "far away" -- doing something more important than those obvious things that their duty implies they should have done. What that is, they refuse to say -- beyond "we swore a vow". 

This isn't an exchange of information, it's verbal sparring. Ned knows perfectly well that they were not doing their expected duties, and is trying to get them to reveal why. What was so important that they neglected their more obvious duties? What was worth letting Rhaegar and Aerys die for? Unlike the war for the throne, their battle is not over. That's why they didn't bend the knee at Storm's End. Yet it's not that they are continuing the fight -- that's why they didn't go with Viserys. They are doing something else. 

The nature of Ned's dialogue, the pointedness of his statements, indicates that Ned is perfectly aware that they were up to something secret. Dayne and Whent were Rhaegar's men. The last of them, mysteriously hiding when they would be expected to be in all of those other places. Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Lyanna is still missing, the 3KG are still missing. It would hardly be a surprise to find still missing Lyanna and the still missing remainder of Rhaegar's forces, the only people to have not yet given up the fight or fled, to be in the same place. The only mystery to Ned is why they are still doing this when they had to abandon such important duties to do so, and when the battle is already lost.

You have given this sequence too much thought. The KG could have responded, "I was scratching my ass and couldn't be bothered." The result would have been the same. The only purpose of this sequence was to show Ned (and hopefully the reader) coming to the conclusion that what the KG was doing at the ToJ was more important than those other things without revealing what was so important. Just out of curiosity, do you think the fight occurred before or after Ned went into the tower to see Lyanna? Because if the fight happened after Ned had seen Lyanna he wouldn't have had to pump the KG for information.