Venus414

Baelishs knife

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This is by memory so please correct me if I'm wrong: 

The blade that almost killed Bran, and cut Cat had originally belonged to Baelish and was won by Robert at a tourney. 

Baelish got it back.

The same blade was held to Neds throat 

 

where on earth did Baelish get a Val steel dagger in the first place? 

 

The Lannisters didn't even own Val. Steel anymore -it is priceless!! 

 

Thoughts?

 

Edited by Venus414
Mistake

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It was never Baelish's knife until he got it from Cat. He made up that story on the spot to frame Tyrion (which almost came back to bite him).

Tyrion and Jaime both inferred that Joffrey sent the assassin after Bran, although I find the reasoning a bit sketchy. I suspect either we don't know the full story, or the original story George had in mind regarding the assassination attempt was retconned.

Edited by Neptunium

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On 15.10.2016 at 7:49 PM, Venus414 said:

This is by memory so please correct me if I'm wrong: 

The blade that almost killed Bran, and cut Cat had originally belonged to Baelish and was won by Robert at a tourney. 

Baelish got it back (from Cat!!!) 

The same blade was held to Neds throat 

 

where on earth did Baelish get a Val steel dagger in the first place? 

 

The Lannisters didn't even own Val. Steel anymore -it is priceless!! 

 

Thoughts?

 

The problem is VS swords, these are priceless, VS steel blades (for knives, daggers, dirks, etc.) are much more common. Even though they are certainly extremly expensive, but LF is also extremly rich.

So he should be able to get one.

Edited by Bironic

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40 minutes ago, Bironic said:

The problem is VS swords, these are priceless, VS steel blades (for knives, daggers, dirks, etc.) are much more common. Even though they are certainly extremly expensive, but LF is also extremly rich.

So he should be able to get one.

extremly rare. 

 

List of known Valyrian steel blades

Blades known to still exist:

Blades with known fates:

Blades with unknown fates:

Other objects

  • A small number of maesters, including Maester Luwin and Archmaester Marwyn, have Valyrian steel links in their collars, representing their study of magic and occultism. Marwyn also has a ring, a rod and a mask of Valyrian steel.[25][26] The maesters who gain Valyrian steel links do not have to forge the metal themselves.[27]
  • Dragonbinder - a dragon hornbanded with red gold and Valyrian steel.[19]
  • The crown worn by Aegon I Targaryenand some of his successors in the Targaryen dynasty, a circlet of Valyrian steel studded with rubies.[28] It was last worn by King Daeron I Targaryen, and lost after his death in Dorne.[29]
  • A suit of black scale armor worn by Euron Greyjoy.[18]

Quotes

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There may be thousands of Valyrian steel blades remaining in the world, but in Westeros there are only 227 such weapons according to Archmaester Thurgood's Inventories, some of which have since been lost or have disappeared from recorded history

Since Baelish is a merchant as well as a Lord and his family hails from Essos, I always assumed he bought it somewhere in Essos.

Most of the items you list are swords. Swords are extremely rare, but swords aren't necessarily the same as blades.

Edited by Bironic

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1 hour ago, Bironic said:

There may be thousands of Valyrian steel blades remaining in the world, but in Westeros there are only 227 such weapons according to Archmaester Thurgood's Inventories, some of which have since been lost or have disappeared from recorded history

Since Baelish is a merchant as well as a Lord and his family hails from Essos, I always assumed he bought it somewhere in Essos.

Most of the items you list are swords. Swords are extremely rare, but swords aren't necessarily the same as blades.

This is from wiki, and his blade is listed with the swords.  Did euron bring a bunch back from the ruins? I know they exist, but I maintain they were Extremly rare- rare enough for kings to have to melt them down to get an ancestral sword back.  At least in book one.... I tend to consider a "not for sale" type item. 

 

Did he "just buy it" 

are they for sale, ever in the story? 

Idk

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On 16.10.2016 at 1:35 AM, Venus414 said:

This is from wiki, and his blade is listed with the swords.  Did euron bring a bunch back from the ruins? I know they exist, but I maintain they were Extremly rare- rare enough for kings to have to melt them down to get an ancestral sword back.  At least in book one.... I tend to consider a "not for sale" type item. 

 

Did he "just buy it" 

are they for sale, ever in the story? 

Idk

Actually the quote is from A World of Ice And Fire...

If there are thousands of them remaining in the world, I think an able man such as LF will probably find a way to get one. It wasn't a VS steel sword, just a VS dagger, those are way less prized(but still very valuable of course) . Maybe he did not buy it at all, he could have ordered someone to steal it, or he could have killed the owner, or he blackmailed the owner, or maybe it was given to him by his father who might have looted it during the war of the Ninepenny Kings, hell Robert Baratheon could have given it to him for some service LF did. That's just what I came up in a few minutes, certainly LF had more ideas, if he really wanted one.

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3 hours ago, Bironic said:

Actually the quote is from A World of Ice And Fire...

If there are thousands of them remaining in the world, I think an able man such as LF will probably find a way to get one. It wasn't a VS steel sword, just a VS dagger, those are way less prized(but still very valuable of course) . Maybe he did not buy it at all, he could have ordered someone to steal it, or he could have killed the owner, or he blackmailed the owner, or maybe it was given to him by his father who might have looted it during the war of the Ninepenny Kings, hell Robert Baratheon could have given it to him for some service LF did. That's just what I came up in a few minutes, certainly LF had more ideas, if he really wanted one.

Sorry, I meant that I copied and pasted my quote from wiki.  I suppose... About 200 with a bunch of those missing, weird there's no explanation and he's from such a small house.  Weird he got it back, too! 

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12 hours ago, Venus414 said:

Sorry, I meant that I copied and pasted my quote from wiki.  I suppose... About 200 with a bunch of those missing, weird there's no explanation and he's from such a small house.  Weird he got it back, too! 

He is from a small house, but having a VS steel weapon has nothing to do with being a great house.

The Lannisters, Tyrells, Tullys, Arryns, Baratheons, Martells have as far as I know no VS weapons. And that's more than half the Great houses of Westeros.

On the other hands we have houses such as Mormont, Drumm, Corbray who have VS steel swords. So having a VS steel weapons doesn't mean you have to be from a great and influential house. Since Baelish is an even smaller house than Mormont & co. it makes sense that he doesn't have a VS sword but just a dagger (which are much more common than swords, with thousands reaming in the world).

He got it back because Ned lost it when he was betrayed by LF. Nothing weird about it.

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What if he won it in by gambling? It appears that he used to place some bets in tourneys and , from our own history, it is known that courtiers gamble. 

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I'm going with it's rare...,  Baelish is superstitious, and has connections back to Braavos... specifically, his former sigil.

 

So he got it from Ned and not Catelyn? My bad. 

 

Theres just no information about Val steel being for sale, except he did gamble with the King (it's probably all he had good enough for a bet with a king?) then he got it back.. 

Tywin melted down Ice because the Lannisters had lost theirs years ago, now they have two. I have weird theories about the Tullys and Harrenhal.... interesting about the Baratheons and Arryn though, I'm not sure but I think the Baratheons are a newer house? As for Arryn I have not a clue.  

Oh welsies.

 

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On 15/10/2016 at 11:32 PM, Bironic said:

The problem is VS swords, these are priceless, VS steel blades (for knives, daggers, dirks, etc.) are much more common. Even though they are certainly extremly expensive, but LF is also extremly rich.

So he should be able to get one.

This. Archmaester Thurgod's estimate of 227 Valyrian steel blades left in the world would make them expensive, but not prohibitive. Littlefinger is a very rich man, and he certainly could afford it.

Meanwhile, Tywin Lannister was after a Valyrian steel sword. That's much scarcer. We only know of six VS swords that were in Westeros at the beginning of the books (Ice, Heartsbane, Lady Forlorn, Longclaw, Nightfall and Red Rain). There could be one or two dozens more that have not appeared yet, but still they were so valuable that the richest man in the Seven Kingdoms could not get one.

On 15/10/2016 at 9:48 PM, Neptunium said:

Tyrion and Jaime both inferred that Joffrey sent the assassin after Bran, although I find the reasoning a bit sketchy. I suspect either we don't know the full story, or the original story George had in mind regarding the assassination attempt was retconned.

I agree that the resolution of Bran's knife is one of the weakest subplots from the first three books.

First, it stretches credulity that a 12 year old that should be constantly surrounded by bodyguards, servants and half the court could be able to contact a catspaw willing to murder a boy and strike a deal with him. It makes no sense that he would give him a very recognizable weapon to do the deed, and one wonders why the catspaw, after being given a bag of silver and a very valuable Valyrian steel knife, chose to go ahead with a very risky murder inside the walls of Winterfell instead of just fleeing with the booty. And if Joffrey really did it to impress his father, why didn't he tell him?

Then, Littlefinger's actions make little sense. When questioned by Cat and Eddard about the blade, he tells the lie that he lost it to Tyrion. Why would he? First of all, he said that in front of Varys, who could have denied it right there. It would also have been likely that Eddard had denounced this to Robert, who would have exposed the lie. So why in the world would Petyr tell such a transparent lie that put him at risk for no reason? Specially when the truth suited his purposes as well! If he wanted to promote turmoil and war, telling Eddard that the blade was Robert's would have also had similar effects.

And finally there's the resolution. Joffrey's mere comment that "he's no stranger to Valyrian steel" seems to me too ambiguous to allow Tyrion deduce anything. Surely there are Valyrian steel weapons in the Red Keep's army, or some lord could have shown his own steel blade when Joffrey visited his keep. Linking this comment to that particular knife is a little bit of a leap of logic.

Edited by The hairy bear

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3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

This. Archmaester Thurgod's estimate of 227 Valyrian steel blades left in the world would make them expensive, but not prohibitive. Littlefinger is a very rich man, and he certainly could afford it.

Meanwhile, Tywin Lannister was after a Valyrian steel sword. That's much scarcer. We only know of six VS swords that were in Westeros at the beginning of the books (Ice, Heartsbane, Lady Forlorn, Longclaw, Nightfall and Red Rain). There could be one or two dozens more that have not appeared yet, but still they were so valuable that the richest man in the Seven Kingdoms could not get one.

I agree that the resolution of Bran's knife is one of the weakest subplots from the first three books.

First, it stretches credulity that a 12 year old that should be constantly surrounded by bodyguards, servants and half the court could be able to contact a catspaw willing to murder a boy and strike a deal with him. It makes no sense that he would give him a very recognizable weapon to do the deed, and one wonders why the catspaw, after being given a bag of silver and a very valuable Valyrian steel knife, chose to go ahead with a very risky murder inside the walls of Winterfell instead of just fleeing with the booty. And if Joffrey really did it to impress his father, why didn't he tell him?

Then, Littlefinger's actions make little sense. When questioned by Cat and Eddard about the blade, he tells the lie that he lost it to Tyrion. Why would he? First of all, he said that in front of Varys, who could have denied it right there. It would also have been likely that Eddard had denounced this to Robert, who would have exposed the lie. So why in the world would Petyr tell such a transparent lie that put him at risk for no reason? Specially when the truth suited his purposes as well! If he wanted to promote turmoil and war, telling Eddard that the blade was Robert's would have also had similar effects.

And finally there's the resolution. Joffrey's mere comment that "he's no stranger to Valyrian steel" seems to me too ambiguous to allow Tyrion deduce anything. Surely there are Valyrian steel weapons in the Red Keep's army, or some lord could have shown his own steel blade when Joffrey visited his keep. Linking this comment to that particular knife is a little bit of a leap of logic.

Thanks for your comment! I wasn't sure what you meant by "he's no stranger to valyrian steel" so I searched for the passage and couldn't find it? 

I do see now that Baelish could have made up the bet in the first place. 

Ive heard a theory Mance was behind it, with his "bag of silver" starting a war would enable him to get the wildlings through.. 

Mance being even more epic than he seems, ... Rad!

 

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2 hours ago, Venus414 said:

Thanks for your comment! I wasn't sure what you meant by "he's no stranger to valyrian steel" so I searched for the passage and couldn't find it? 

I do see now that Baelish could have made up the bet in the first place. 

Ive heard a theory Mance was behind it, with his "bag of silver" starting a war would enable him to get the wildlings through.. 

Mance being even more epic than he seems, ... Rad!

Not every theory can be believed, and many are completely insane. Though the Mance theory may not be insane, it is pretty far out there.

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17 hours ago, Venus414 said:

Thanks for your comment! I wasn't sure what you meant by "he's no stranger to valyrian steel" so I searched for the passage and couldn't find it?

The quote comes from a Sansa chapter in ASOS, just before the purple wedding, when Joffrey receives the wedding gifts. Tywin gives him Widow's Wail and Tyrion gives him a book by some maester. Then Joffrey uses the sword to destroy the book, and boasts that "he's no stranger to Valyrian steel". That's how Tyrion starts suspecting that he's behind Bran's murder attempt.

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I think the dagger has something to do with Lyanna's abduction or disappearance. Others have persuasively suspected that Littlefinger was the catalyst for the rebellion. I think that they are right and Littlefinger told Lysa to tell Catelyn/Brandon that it Rhaegar abducted her. He was on his way back to Fingers when she abducted as the Starks travelled south for Brandon's wedding to Catelyn.

 I think Littlefinger's motivation was to "move" Brandon to get himself killed, which he did. 

Where does the dagger come in? It strikes me as the sort of thing a Targaryen might own: valyrian steel with a dragonbone hilt. I think Littlefinger got it from the Targaryens. But which one and why?

I think he got it from the Mad king as a thank you. I think it likely that  Littlefinger told the Mad King that Lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree, and the Mad King thought she was the key to he conspiracy against him (which might have been a reasonable assessment). Her betrothal might have confirmed that. Just as he thwarted the "southron ambitions" by making Jaime a member of the Kingsguard (and thwarting a Tully/Lannister alliance), he seized Lyanna to thwart a Stark/Baratheon alliance. I think the mad king is Jon Snow's father, and Rhaegar helped her escape from the Red Keep.

That would explain Rhaegar's behavior and be consistent with his character. Sure he was obsessed with prophecy and Elia was too fragile to have a third child, but it was distinctly out of character for Rhaegar to just take off with another woman, especially when Rhaegar's purpose of the Harrenhal tournament was to discuss removing the Mad king from power. Perhaps Rhaegar discovered that she was the knight of the laughing tree and why she did it. He crowned her queen of love and beauty out of admiration for standing up for Howland Reed, not infatuation. Consider the parallel with Baelor Breakspear at the tournament at Ashford; Lyanna/Duncan standing up for the weak and Rhaegar/Baelor standing with that person.

Rhaegar left the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy because Lyanna was pregnant with his sibling. That is the secret that Ned thought "was too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

And Littlefinger knows all of this. Remember him saying the tv show that the duel with Brandon is when he realized he had to play a different game, and the knowing look he gave Sansa in the crypt when she said Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna?

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19 hours ago, Jabus12 said:

I think the dagger has something to do with Lyanna's abduction or disappearance. Others have persuasively suspected that Littlefinger was the catalyst for the rebellion. I think that they are right and Littlefinger told Lysa to tell Catelyn/Brandon that it Rhaegar abducted her. He was on his way back to Fingers when she abducted as the Starks travelled south for Brandon's wedding to Catelyn.

 I think Littlefinger's motivation was to "move" Brandon to get himself killed, which he did. 

Where does the dagger come in? It strikes me as the sort of thing a Targaryen might own: valyrian steel with a dragonbone hilt. I think Littlefinger got it from the Targaryens. But which one and why?

I think he got it from the Mad king as a thank you. I think it likely that  Littlefinger told the Mad King that Lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree, and the Mad King thought she was the key to he conspiracy against him (which might have been a reasonable assessment). Her betrothal might have confirmed that. Just as he thwarted the "southron ambitions" by making Jaime a member of the Kingsguard (and thwarting a Tully/Lannister alliance), he seized Lyanna to thwart a Stark/Baratheon alliance. I think the mad king is Jon Snow's father, and Rhaegar helped her escape from the Red Keep.

That would explain Rhaegar's behavior and be consistent with his character. Sure he was obsessed with prophecy and Elia was too fragile to have a third child, but it was distinctly out of character for Rhaegar to just take off with another woman, especially when Rhaegar's purpose of the Harrenhal tournament was to discuss removing the Mad king from power. Perhaps Rhaegar discovered that she was the knight of the laughing tree and why she did it. He crowned her queen of love and beauty out of admiration for standing up for Howland Reed, not infatuation. Consider the parallel with Baelor Breakspear at the tournament at Ashford; Lyanna/Duncan standing up for the weak and Rhaegar/Baelor standing with that person.

Rhaegar left the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy because Lyanna was pregnant with his sibling. That is the secret that Ned thought "was too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

And Littlefinger knows all of this. Remember him saying the tv show that the duel with Brandon is when he realized he had to play a different game, and the knowing look he gave Sansa in the crypt when she said Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna?

So Littlefinger was a criminal mastermind at the age of 14, while in a status of recovery from grievous wounds.

Rickard Stark might have had southron ambitions, but they don't have anything to do with Jaime marrying Lysa, since this marriage wasn't arranged by Rickard.

If rhaegar helped Lyanna elope, why didn't Aerys execute him for this treason?

Yes Rhaegar most likely found out that Lyanna was the Knight of the laughing tree.

 

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On 10/23/2016 at 7:17 PM, Jabus12 said:

I think the dagger has something to do with Lyanna's abduction or disappearance. Others have persuasively suspected that Littlefinger was the catalyst for the rebellion. I think that they are right and Littlefinger told Lysa to tell Catelyn/Brandon that it Rhaegar abducted her. He was on his way back to Fingers when she abducted as the Starks travelled south for Brandon's wedding to Catelyn.

 I think Littlefinger's motivation was to "move" Brandon to get himself killed, which he did. 

Where does the dagger come in? It strikes me as the sort of thing a Targaryen might own: valyrian steel with a dragonbone hilt. I think Littlefinger got it from the Targaryens. But which one and why?

I think he got it from the Mad king as a thank you. I think it likely that  Littlefinger told the Mad King that Lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree, and the Mad King thought she was the key to he conspiracy against him (which might have been a reasonable assessment). Her betrothal might have confirmed that. Just as he thwarted the "southron ambitions" by making Jaime a member of the Kingsguard (and thwarting a Tully/Lannister alliance), he seized Lyanna to thwart a Stark/Baratheon alliance. I think the mad king is Jon Snow's father, and Rhaegar helped her escape from the Red Keep.

That would explain Rhaegar's behavior and be consistent with his character. Sure he was obsessed with prophecy and Elia was too fragile to have a third child, but it was distinctly out of character for Rhaegar to just take off with another woman, especially when Rhaegar's purpose of the Harrenhal tournament was to discuss removing the Mad king from power. Perhaps Rhaegar discovered that she was the knight of the laughing tree and why she did it. He crowned her queen of love and beauty out of admiration for standing up for Howland Reed, not infatuation. Consider the parallel with Baelor Breakspear at the tournament at Ashford; Lyanna/Duncan standing up for the weak and Rhaegar/Baelor standing with that person.

Rhaegar left the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy because Lyanna was pregnant with his sibling. That is the secret that Ned thought "was too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

And Littlefinger knows all of this. Remember him saying the tv show that the duel with Brandon is when he realized he had to play a different game, and the knowing look he gave Sansa in the crypt when she said Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna?

I was already thinking most of the things you just said!!! This is awesome!

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There  are 227 blades. Is this meant to mean swords?  It is clear from the text that daggers, while last resort weapons of war (usually going through some unfortunate eye), are mostly meant to cut meat at table.  Read the chapters that feature feasts and you will see multiple references to daggers as tools rather than weapons in all five currently published books.  Also, mention is made that Joff could have procured said dagger easily from Daddy Robert's armory at his leisure.  As Tywin (I think) mentions, various suitors at court customarily bestowed bejeweled and expensive (VS is expensive, but not unobtainable to someone who has connections in the nine Free Cities) daggers to Robert. He threw them all in his armory.  Tywin (I think) says that the only dagger Robert ever used was the one Jon Arryn gave him.  Of course Joff could have access to the dagger, motive to use it (Robert in a drunken fucktardedness telling his peeps that "we have the courage to put down our horses and dogs" but not our crippled children.) Not an actual quote, but close enough it makes no matter.  It's clear Joff did this (to me), but why?  He apparently hated his father after ("some mischief with a cat")  which means Joff cut kittens out of a pregnant cat's belly to see them and Robert beat the hell out of him.  We have two POV mentions of this incident so it likely happened.

Why?  I don't know.  Did he hate Bran?  Was someone directing him?  It seems reckless and stupid to me for him to do this thing just to please a daddy he hates.  I have never been satisfied with this explanation, however it makes the most logical sense if you accept Joff as a sociopath.  GRRM works in mysterious ways.

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" (VS is expensive, but not unobtainable to someone who has connections in the nine Free Cities)" - what do the free cities have to do with it? Forgive me, I feel dumb asking.  Braavos is a free city with the armory and ships, so... yeah Joffery is a psycho that would never hire that weird idiot to do it and have no reason to burn the library versus the stables?

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