Jon Snow, The King Who Knelt?

[Drogonthedread]

23 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Dany herself agreed and offered that Yara will be Queen of Iron Islands and have her independency but answer to her or support her claim. Tyrion advised her not to hand things like that. They even shook hands, Doesn't look like kneeling to me. Tyrion when entered her services, did he knelt? No. If Jon and Dany meets, kneeling as you just said would be required in their first meeting, why later on? So no, I don't think it will come to that. They have much more important things to sort out.

Comparing Hizdar to Jon is an insult and totally different situation. Hizdar was simply put into this position, Dany had no respect for him but she need someone to marry. Totally different people, goals, situations.

I expect negotiations, you have two main protagonists, two people who shares same view on many things, who had been doing similiar things and cares about people. If Jon kneels, every bit of respect they had for him in the North is gone, especially combine that with already uneasy parentage to them. Show builds them with their parallels, story, journey as equals and somehow completing each other. Plenty of foreshadowing in the books pointing at her fondness towards Jon and vice versa. If they do this, it would only be illogical and hurt Jon as a character.

She said that she wants to marry for politics but she already did that. Third one will be for love. So, it's essentially possible that Dany will want political alliance but turn that she loves him and marry for love and not for politics. This completing one of Hotu visions.

Dany in the books and show is a bit different, that is true. But still she ain't no power hungry. Especially, is she knows about his parentage. All she wants in the books is family and some place she can call home, iron throne is her duty. Show twisted it but I don't expect her to be that much different, when she learns it. In fact, she'd be happy that she has some blood relative still alive in the world and care for them.

I see that a lot of Dany fans mainly points out this that Jon should, will and must kneel. Is it jealousy, hate or just to make Dany feel a bit more empowered? Especially as I said with two of the main protagonists. Not everybody is bound to kneel, worship or do everything for her.

 

Are you sure its what dany fans want..

I think there is lot of factors here ..one is the haters who doesn't have any understanding of the character and trying to make her a mad power hungry who can't see reason..

Or its a just as simple thing like people wanting jon kneel to dany because that means there won't be any need for the marriage just because of preconceived notions

Fans or not ..Anyone who has any real understanding of the character will know she won't be doing this especially when she learns about WW..

 

[Lord Friendzone]

10 hours ago, Cridefea said:

It's the opposite. I do not like Dany. She will ask Jon to kneel because she thinks it is her right. I don't see her like a flexible and tolerant person. She doesn't know nothing of Westeros, but she wants the kingdom. So why shouldn't she ask Jon to kneel?

Tyrion, Varys, Jorah, Yara etc etc aren't King/Queen, Jon is. That is really different. One of them (Jon or Dany) must step back.

I've seen it elsewhere youtube, reddit and such sites. It mostly came from those who love Dany and for some reason hate Jon, even tho these two are very similiar, Just another argument to this ongoing debate Jon vs Dany.

She's got Tyrion who knows Jon, might meet Sam, Theon is there too. Like Tyrion mentioned to her killing or threatening and politics are not always the same. I see Dany as very flexible person. She gave Yara independency under condition of no ravaging, pillaging and them harrasing coasts and also support her claim. Their old way of doing things. Tyrion was actually against it and others are fee to ask too. She managed to get Tyrion on her side and actually listens to him. In fact, she is more willing to listen to advices than Jon is. Not that Jon is not at all because he can reason. Of course, it won't be unicorns between them but they can work their differences. They have same goals.

Yara was promised crown of Iron Islands, I don't see that this different to Jon. Especially, if ice zombies are marching their way too.

Bit if they do make Jon kneel like literally, then basically he'll loserspect of people in the North, no adbvatnage and no marriage. Honestly, it would be just to boost her ego. Iam not saying it's impossible but I don't think they'll do kneeling.

[Lord Friendzone]

23 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

Are you sure its what dany fans want..

I think there is lot of factors here ..one is the haters who doesn't have any understanding of the character and trying to make her a mad power hungry who can't see reason..

Or its a just as simple thing like people wanting jon kneel to dany because that means there won't be any need for the marriage just because of preconceived notions

Fans or not ..Anyone who has any real understanding of the character will know she won't be doing this especially when she learns about WW..

 

I've seen it and honestly. Than comes Jon fans in defend. He won't kneel for evil Daenerys, who comes to destroy Westeros. D&D go on to even describe them as Ice and Fire, Yin and Yang or how we want to call it. Sort of complementing each other and parallels are mounting more we get close to their meeting. Dany is about equality.

People probably puts kneeling as sort of shaming, showing dominance. Years fo fighting between these two camps, so anyone can use whatever they can to show "we got the upper hand.".

Show is very simply in many ways. If they say she'll marry to gain something political, she'll do it. Who else than Jon left? Shireen's death was telegraphed, Stannis, Ramsay, R+L=J and so on. So this marriage will happen, Jon needs to eneter negotiations with something she would want and somethig he could provide. It must be benefitial. If Jon was some secondary character, fair enough. But we're talking about two most important people. 

She sort of gave up or was surpised that she felt nothing when she dumped Daario, focusing on her goals, expecting political marriage or mybe not even that marriage. So it's possible it might turn out into love affair, completing her visions. Jon is pretty much like this or well mourning loss of Ygritte his only love.

Although, how they'll able to manage to and do everything in space of 13 episodes is a mystery but let's hope to say they won't rush it and it will be good.

[Evarei]

7 hours ago, Mandzipop said:

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Jon going to Dragonstone is pretty much confirmed by now. Kit should be flying out in the next couple of days. Liam is already there as he's been rehearsing on a beach with Peter.

 

Spoiler

I meant your theory about Jon being imprisoned like a dumbass (on some super secret mission) and others having to save/free him, namely Sansa. That'd ruin his character. For once he needs some victories of his own. And to reaffirm his agency, not become a 'damsel in distress'.

 

[Mandzipop]

3 hours ago, Evarei said:

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I meant your theory about Jon being imprisoned like a dumbass (on some super secret mission) and others having to save/free him, namely Sansa. That'd ruin his character. For once he needs some victories of his own. And to reaffirm his agency, not become a 'damsel in distress'.

 

It is only a theory based on what filming information we have.

[Queen of Procrastination]

10 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I've seen it elsewhere youtube, reddit and such sites. It mostly came from those who love Dany and for some reason hate Jon, even tho these two are very similiar, Just another argument to this ongoing debate Jon vs Dany.

She's got Tyrion who knows Jon, might meet Sam, Theon is there too. Like Tyrion mentioned to her killing or threatening and politics are not always the same. I see Dany as very flexible person. She gave Yara independency under condition of no ravaging, pillaging and them harrasing coasts and also support her claim. Their old way of doing things. Tyrion was actually against it and others are fee to ask too. She managed to get Tyrion on her side and actually listens to him. In fact, she is more willing to listen to advices than Jon is. Not that Jon is not at all because he can reason. Of course, it won't be unicorns between them but they can work their differences. They have same goals.

Yara was promised crown of Iron Islands, I don't see that this different to Jon. Especially, if ice zombies are marching their way too.

Bit if they do make Jon kneel like literally, then basically he'll loserspect of people in the North, no adbvatnage and no marriage. Honestly, it would be just to boost her ego. Iam not saying it's impossible but I don't think they'll do kneeling.

 

10 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I've seen it and honestly. Than comes Jon fans in defend. He won't kneel for evil Daenerys, who comes to destroy Westeros. D&D go on to even describe them as Ice and Fire, Yin and Yang or how we want to call it. Sort of complementing each other and parallels are mounting more we get close to their meeting. Dany is about equality.

People probably puts kneeling as sort of shaming, showing dominance. Years fo fighting between these two camps, so anyone can use whatever they can to show "we got the upper hand.".

Show is very simply in many ways. If they say she'll marry to gain something political, she'll do it. Who else than Jon left? Shireen's death was telegraphed, Stannis, Ramsay, R+L=J and so on. So this marriage will happen, Jon needs to eneter negotiations with something she would want and somethig he could provide. It must be benefitial. If Jon was some secondary character, fair enough. But we're talking about two most important people. 

She sort of gave up or was surpised that she felt nothing when she dumped Daario, focusing on her goals, expecting political marriage or mybe not even that marriage. So it's possible it might turn out into love affair, completing her visions. Jon is pretty much like this or well mourning loss of Ygritte his only love.

Although, how they'll able to manage to and do everything in space of 13 episodes is a mystery but let's hope to say they won't rush it and it will be good.

Honestly, I've never understood this Jon vs. Dany thing. Both are two of my favourite characters  (at least in the books) and I never understood why some Jon fans hate Dany and why some Dany fans hate Jon. In think there are actually quite many parallels between the two characters. 

The only difference I see between granting the Iron Islands independence and granting the same thing to the North is the size of the two territories. The Iron Islands are basically a few small rocks while the North amounts to nearly half of the territory of the seven kingdoms. But maybe the showrunners put the Yara scene in there on purpose, so that we've got a precedent for Dany allowing a territory to stay independent. 

Regarding the 13 episodes thing. Well Season 6 already felt rushed for me (and I know that there are quite many people who had the same feeling), unfotunately it might be even more rushed when they try to fit the story into 7 episodes. 

[Cridefea]

10 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I've seen it elsewhere youtube, reddit and such sites. It mostly came from those who love Dany and for some reason hate Jon, even tho these two are very similiar, Just another argument to this ongoing debate Jon vs Dany.

She's got Tyrion who knows Jon, might meet Sam, Theon is there too. Like Tyrion mentioned to her killing or threatening and politics are not always the same. I see Dany as very flexible person. She gave Yara independency under condition of no ravaging, pillaging and them harrasing coasts and also support her claim. Their old way of doing things. Tyrion was actually against it and others are fee to ask too. She managed to get Tyrion on her side and actually listens to him. In fact, she is more willing to listen to advices than Jon is. Not that Jon is not at all because he can reason. Of course, it won't be unicorns between them but they can work their differences. They have same goals.

Yara was promised crown of Iron Islands, I don't see that this different to Jon. Especially, if ice zombies are marching their way too.

Bit if they do make Jon kneel like literally, then basically he'll loserspect of people in the North, no adbvatnage and no marriage. Honestly, it would be just to boost her ego. Iam not saying it's impossible but I don't think they'll do kneeling.

I know they will convince her to be more flexible and she will help Jon with WW in the end. But I think it will happen later. First thing, she will ask him to kneel. Even if she is so open-minded like you say, she still has a distorted vision of Westeros.

As for Yara, she is not a Queen. There is the Euron/Yara fracture in the Iron Islands. Jon is already a King, by acclamation. Dany can't automatically permit him to be king, 'cause she bases her claiming to the throne by birthright. And in her vision, it is her right.

 

However, kneeling or not, I really hope the leaks are fake. 

[OldGimletEye]

On 10/16/2016 at 7:21 AM, AdesteFideles said:

Torrhen Stark put good sense before pride and knelt before Aegon instead of throwing the lives of his soldiers away. Does anyone else think history will repeat itself with the current KiTN doing the same? Will Jon will put the survival of his people before his pride and ask Dany to come north and help against the Whitewalkers? It would tie in with his "and I wish I had three dragons" musings.

I am reminded of this quote from Stannis, "Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne". When Dany takes King's Landing, and if Davos if named Hand of the King and sent to treat with her, I think a similar thing might occur.

This could work with both book and show; however the show seems much closer to this than the books right now, what with book-Jon still being dead and all.

Dany may need the Northerners just as much as they need her. So, I don't think he has to. If the North falls, then the South maybe next.

I'd hope Jon wouldn't simply kneel to Dany, unless Dany fully recognizes the legitimacy of the war against her father.

[Lord Friendzone]

5 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

 

Honestly, I've never understood this Jon vs. Dany thing. Both are two of my favourite characters  (at least in the books) and I never understood why some Jon fans hate Dany and why some Dany fans hate Jon. In think there are actually quite many parallels between the two characters. 

The only difference I see between granting the Iron Islands independence and granting the same thing to the North is the size of the two territories. The Iron Islands are basically a few small rocks while the North amounts to nearly half of the territory of the seven kingdoms. But maybe the showrunners put the Yara scene in there on purpose, so that we've got a precedent for Dany allowing a territory to stay independent. 

Regarding the 13 episodes thing. Well Season 6 already felt rushed for me (and I know that there are quite many people who had the same feeling), unfotunately it might be even more rushed when they try to fit the story into 7 episodes. 

Show chaeacter are also quite similiar. Dany showed that under certain circumstances she'll allow it and the North would answer to her, just that Jon or Sansa would be be controlling the North. They made that scene on purpose. As for rushing this or next season? I agree with you that with content they have and two season, it would be rushed but hopefully good quality and we don't know how long episodes will be if same as last season or longer due to the fact that we'll have 7 episodes instead of 10 as usual. But hopefully, quality will be good.

[Evarei]

nvm

[MoreOrLess]

I think the big unknown I suspect might well be Bran, I'd say he may potential have the power to influence Dany towards the threat of the Walkers/Others and so foster a potential alliance between her and Jon.

[Masha]

Isn't Davos and Brianne meeting Tyrion and Dany in Dragonpit is supposed to be in the last episode of the season? 

I suspect most likely its the start of formal negotiations between Targaryen queen and King of the North, whether to kneel or to marry. So we probably only get the last minute greetings and start of negotiations and perhaps basic peace agreement before season is over, like Ned's and Lyanna scene with baby Jon in the last season. The marry/kneel part will probably happen in season 8

[Evarei]

Dany had no problem allowing Yara to become Queen of Iron Islands once Euron is dealt with, if she demands Jon  forfeit his Kingship it will be some misandristic, discriminatory nonsense.

[Evarei]

56 minutes ago, Masha said:

Isn't Davos and Brianne meeting Tyrion and Dany in Dragonpit is supposed to be in the last episode of the season? 

where did you read that? 

[Cridefea]

3 hours ago, Evarei said:

nvm

yeah the news about the fake leaks was fake.   I think this is too much for me.

[Evarei]

It's trollception lol

Anyway, Jon repeating what Torrhen Stark did would be that, a repeat, the story is that of changes. And honestly, Jon giving up what the Lords have given him and the North to a foreign conqueror would ruin his character. It'd be worse than show Dorne. He would lose his honour, his agency, the respect of the Northerners and Wildlings (the raging non-kneelers). His time with the Wildlings learning about their ways and becoming more like them would be rendered pointless. Mance's speech to him about freedom and losing his people upon submission would be pointless.

[Commander Jon Snow]

He might kneel. Jon doesn't really care about being King anyway. Marriage is probably more likely

[Marada78]

He is more than keen to kneel for Dany, probably the same way he already knelt for Ygritte.

[Masha]

20 hours ago, Evarei said:

where did you read that? 

I get all my info from either WatchersontheWall or WinterisComing, so far they only report confirmed sightings on the set and info based from good sources. They haven't reported a simple fake rumor so far (based on Season 6)

[Marada78]

They are filming in Italica (dragonpit set) soon, as it will be closed until 12 November. Isn't that a little bit early for the last episode? Right now everything hinted they are filming episode 1 and 2.