Jon Snow, The King Who Knelt?

[NorthernXY]

On 10/21/2016 at 7:01 PM, HanginginWesteros said:

I'm curious as to what makes him leave Winterfell.

Bad writing.

[HanginginWesteros]

3 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

Bad writing.

So true. 

[Viking]

I was sure the whole kneeling scene was going to happen at the inn of the kneeling man. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

If Jon becomes aware that Bran is back or even if Bran makes it back to Winterfell, then he knows that Bran is the rightful King. If Jon bends the knee, it may be out of some "cunning" so as to give Dany what she wants but not exactly what she thinks she is getting in order to obtain what he needs to defend the North and also all of humanity against the Others/White Walkers and their minions of wyghts/zombies.

[Cridefea]

On 26/10/2016 at 8:06 PM, NorthernXY said:

Bad writing.

LoL

[El Guapo]

6 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

If Jon becomes aware that Bran is back or even if Bran makes it back to Winterfell, then he knows that Bran is the rightful King. If Jon bends the knee, it may be out of some "cunning" so as to give Dany what she wants but not exactly what she thinks she is getting in order to obtain what he needs to defend the North and also all of humanity against the Others/White Walkers and their minions of wyghts/zombies.

He is quite aware that Sansa is alive and therefore the rightful Queen (he even said so as much when he told her she should take Ned' and Cat's old room) but he had no problem bypassing her anyway to become King of the North.

 

 

[NorthernXY]

The lords of the North are quite aware Sansa is alive and had no problem bypassing the rightful queen, she was sitting right next to him.  Winter is here, you're not going to be put in charge because your father was.  They're picking the person they think is most likely to get them through till spring, name be damned.  Jon led the fight against the Boltons, was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and was resurrected from the grave (not even mentioned but that might win it for him alone).  Sansa is a true Stark and brought in the cavalry to steal victory from the Boltons at the last moment (didn't have to be last moment and a lot more wouldn't have died), but she doesn't have any experience leading and managing soldiers, which is what everybody is during the War for the Dawn.  She complains about not being listened to, then when asked admits she has nothing to add.

[Queen of Procrastination]

3 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

The lords of the North are quite aware Sansa is alive and had no problem bypassing the rightful queen, she was sitting right next to him.  Winter is here, you're not going to be put in charge because your father was.  They're picking the person they think is most likely to get them through till spring, name be damned.  Jon led the fight against the Boltons, was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and was resurrected from the grave (not even mentioned but that might win it for him alone).  Sansa is a true Stark and brought in the cavalry to steal victory from the Boltons at the last moment (didn't have to be last moment and a lot more wouldn't have died), but she doesn't have any experience leading and managing soldiers, which is what everybody is during the War for the Dawn.  She complains about not being listened to, then when asked admits she has nothing to add.

Preach. 

 Besides they are probably also aware at this point that Bran is alive and Sansa and Jon have been told by Theon and Sam. Bran comes before Sansa in the line of succession, so he would be the rightful King and Sansa would not be the rightful Queen anyway, she would only be Bran's heir. If people want to claim that Jon usurped one of his siblings (something which I do not agree with, but that's a different matter) they should focus on Bran and not on Sansa. I find it a bit illogical that some people claim that Jon usurped Sansa and that she should have become Queen, but completly ignore the fact that she would have usurped Bran by coming Queen, which is the exact thing they accuse Jon of. 

Apart from that Jon becoming KitN is one of the few things that happened in Season 6 of which I'm quite confident that they will also happen in the books (there is really a lot of foreshadowing in that direction). However, the show had to do it this way, which was probably a bit illogical, I admit as much, because of some mistakes they've made by deviating from the book material.

- They've left out Robb's will back in Season 3, so they decided that Jon should become King through acclamation which is something the show has actually precedents for (Robb himself and Euron). 

- They gave Sansa the Jeyne Poole story. There are many other reasons why I consider the Sansa Bolton plot one of the worst mistakes the show has made, but I think that the Northern Lords also had to ignore Sansa, because she might not be there when Jon becomes KitN in the books. Sansa was put into a story in which she doesn't belong and had to be ignored, because she wasn't supposed to be there. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

6 hours ago, El Guapo said:

He is quite aware that Sansa is alive and therefore the rightful Queen (he even said so as much when he told her she should take Ned' and Cat's old room) but he had no problem bypassing her anyway to become King of the North.

 

 

In the context of the show, Sansa betrayed her family by marrying a Bolton, then, kept vital military info from the Northerners fighting for them. They did not want her as their leader. Jon was a bastard and she a traitor, there is no doubt about Bran's status as legitimate male heir to Ned Stark. I do not think this is something the show can simply waive aside like they did the Sansa - Tyrion marriage, even though it was not consummated.

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

A key point is that they didn't name Jon Lord of Winterfell, they only named him King in the North. The Lordship of Winterfell and Kingship of the North are separate titles.

[kimim]

22 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

If Jon becomes aware that Bran is back or even if Bran makes it back to Winterfell, then he knows that Bran is the rightful King. If Jon bends the knee, it may be out of some "cunning" so as to give Dany what she wants but not exactly what she thinks she is getting in order to obtain what he needs to defend the North and also all of humanity against the Others/White Walkers and their minions of wyghts/zombies.

There hasn't been a king or queen of the North in centuries, so there is no "rightful king." Or Queen. Jon was elected by acclamation, and that's all there is to it.

There is a rightful lord/lady of Winterfell, and that would be Bran, not Sansa. I hope someone bothers to recall it, but given these spoilers, it wouldn't surprise me if no one does.

As for "bending the knee," spoilers make it sound like this will be the worst season ever, but this, at least, makes sense. Sure Jon would bend his pretty knees. He's got nothing to bargain with, and Dany is sitting on everything he needs. He's looking at the end of the North without her help. If she tells him to get naked and do the chicken dance, he would. Or he should.

Having said that, literally everything else in the spoilers list sucks.

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, kimim said:

 

As for "bending the knee," spoilers make it sound like this will be the worst season ever, but this, at least, makes sense. Sure Jon would bend his pretty knees. He's got nothing to bargain with, and Dany is sitting on everything he needs. He's looking at the end of the North without her help. If she tells him to get naked and do the chicken dance, he would. Or he should.

Well, actually, if the North is overrun, then Dany's kingdom is likely to be next, whatever it is, particularly if she hasn't concluded her war with Cersei. So not really.

It's Dany's interest to keep the WW invasion in the North, to the extent possible. And Jon should point that out. So no, he shouldn't just flop over like a dead fish and let his House, the North, and it's allies go down in utter humiliation and agree to whatever terms Dany cares to give. It certainly would be disappointing if Jon became the Westeros version of Neville Chamberlain.

If Jon pursues a complete policy of appeasement with Dany, essentially letting Aerys Targyen off the hook, he is a chump.

[kimim]

9 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well, actually, if the North is overrun, then Dany's kingdom is likely to be next, whatever it is, particularly if she hasn't concluded her war with Cersei. So not really.

It's Dany's interest to keep the WW invasion in the North, to the extent possible. And Jon should point that out. So no, he shouldn't just flop over like a dead fish and let his House, the North, and it's allies go down in utter humiliation and agree to whatever terms Dany cares to give. It certainly would be disappointing if Jon became the Westeros version of Neville Chamberlain.

If Jon pursues a complete policy of appeasement with Dany, essentially letting Aerys Targyen off the hook, he is a chump.

True, but that doesn't change the fact that Dany holds every card in this game. She is on Dragonstone, which means she has access to obsidian, and she has the dragons, on top of everything else. Jon has nothing. You're asking him to declare that he'd sooner see the North go down to Walkers than have it give up its independence in a weird game of chicken with Dany. That is out of character for Jon. I think he'll eventually accept what Robb did vs Renly in order to save his people. 

As for Dany vs Cersei: This is where the spoilers cease to make sense. Dany, upon arrival, is so powerful that she could take Cersei without breaking a sweat. Apparently they're keeping her and her dragons inactive on Dragonstone instead, in the name of some type of "strategy," then they accuse her of poor impulse control when she goes off and attacks her enemies. That's so stupid that I don't even know what to say. That she would then declare an armistice against Cersei, who is crazy as a loon, hated by the common people, very weak and unreliable to boot is...idk. I can't wrap my mind around that one.

[OldGimletEye]

28 minutes ago, kimim said:

True, but that doesn't change the fact that Dany holds every card in this game. She is on Dragonstone, which means she has access to obsidian, and she has the dragons, on top of everything else. Jon has nothing. You're asking him to declare that he'd sooner see the North go down to Walkers than have it give up its independence in a weird game of chicken with Dany. That is out of character for Jon. I think he'll eventually accept what Robb did vs Renly in order to save his people. 

As for Dany vs Cersei: This is where the spoilers cease to make sense. Dany, upon arrival, is so powerful that she could take Cersei without breaking a sweat. Apparently they're keeping her and her dragons inactive on Dragonstone instead, in the name of some type of "strategy," then they accuse her of poor impulse control when she goes off and attacks her enemies. That's so stupid that I don't even know what to say. That she would then declare an armistice against Cersei, who is crazy as a loon, hated by the common people, very weak and unreliable to boot is...idk. I can't wrap my mind around that one.

No, Dany is holding a stronger hand. Not necessarily every card in the deck. If she ends up fighting the North, she and her people are likely to be defeated as well. She has incentive to make peace and be reasonable.

Also, the Starks have Bran, whose abilities might prove useful. So, I reject the idea that Jon has got nothing he can play.

And I'm not necessarily saying Jon shouldn't swear fealty to Dany. What I'm saying is that Jon shouldn't let Dany persist in the belief that the North is automatically hers. And Jon should make it clear that House Stark, the North, and it's allies aren't going to take any blame for the removal of Aerys Targaryen. And he should make it clear that the North and the Starks are not playthings for Targaryen monarchs to murder as they please. And Dany should be made to acknowledge that if she doesn't willing do  that herself.

Should Jon be reasonable to save his people? Yes. Should he utterly capitulate to Dany's demands or terms? No, he shouldn't. I mean I know with some people silvery blond hair, violet eyes, and dragons has made despotism and maybe, even fascism, seem glamorous or fashionable, but it would be very disappointing to see Jon completely capitulate, without preserving the dignity of his people and giving the finger to despotic nitwits like Aerys and their enablers. If Dany wants to be an apologist or an enabler for people like Aerys, she should be told to take a frickin hike.

And as king of the North, I'd expect somebody like Jon to think about the long term implications of swearing fealty to Dany without condition or qualification, even if the defeat of the Others is the most immediate issue.

[El Guapo]

14 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

In the context of the show, Sansa betrayed her family by marrying a Bolton, then, kept vital military info from the Northerners fighting for them. They did not want her as their leader. Jon was a bastard and she a traitor, there is no doubt about Bran's status as legitimate male heir to Ned Stark. I do not think this is something the show can simply waive aside like they did the Sansa - Tyrion marriage, even though it was not consummated.

In the context of the show she is the heir to Winterfell (with Bran assumed dead). I will repeat this again even Jon recognizes this when he tells her that the Lords chambers belongs to her and not him. And I hate to break this you but if the northerners now get to choose their king they are going to select the person that can actually lead them and fight in the impending invasion and not the legitimate child that can't walk.

 

[kimim]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

Should Jon be reasonable to save his people? Yes. Should he utterly capitulate to Dany's demands or terms? No, he shouldn't. I mean I know with some people silvery blond hair, violet eyes, and dragons has made despotism and maybe, even fascism, seem glamorous or fashionable, but it would be very disappointing to see Jon completely capitulate, without preserving the dignity of his people and giving the finger to despotic nitwits like Aerys and their enablers. If Dany wants to be an apologist or an enabler for people like Aerys, she should be told to take a frickin hike.

As always this is Dany. She's perfection itself; that she's flirting with fascism is an unintended consequence for over-idealized characters, who are often too powerful and too perfect to ever meet anything other than manufactured difficulties.

I disagree to the extent that I do not believe Jon has a leg to stand on. He's a new king. He's in conflict with his sister, who is the lady of Winterfell. His people are split between the wildlings and Northerners, and traditionally, these groups do not get along. His region is mired in winter, a time of famine for the North. Castle Black has been reduced to very few men and Dolorous Edd. The Walkers are coming. I'm not sure if Bran got past the Wall before Jon left; even if he did, the show, like the novels, has been using him as Wayback Machine rather than weapon.

It comes down to the fact that Jon needs Dany far more than Dany needs Jon. Any power that Jon has comes down to "if you don't meet the Walkers with me, you'll meet the Walkers without me," which basically means she'll meet the Walkers, with or without his rather limited support. She might then return with "Ok, go off and die, then. Gives me time to take down Cersei and make some obsidian weapons."

Think how quickly Cat agreed to Renly's demands. Back then, Robb needed allies, and Cat got Robb an ally, giving up some portion of Northern independence. Same, I suspect, will go for Jon. What should save him is this is Dany, whom the show is desperate to present as positively as possible. She will almost certainly demand some capitulation, but not total capitulation.

[OldGimletEye]

27 minutes ago, kimim said:

As always this is Dany. She's perfection itself; that she's flirting with fascism is an unintended consequence for over-idealized characters, who are often too powerful and too perfect to ever meet anything other than manufactured difficulties.

I disagree to the extent that I do not believe Jon has a leg to stand on. He's a new king. He's in conflict with his sister, who is the lady of Winterfell. His people are split between the wildlings and Northerners, and traditionally, these groups do not get along. His region is mired in winter, a time of famine for the North. Castle Black has been reduced to very few men and Dolorous Edd. The Walkers are coming. I'm not sure if Bran got past the Wall before Jon left; even if he did, the show, like the novels, has been using him as Wayback Machine rather than weapon.

It comes down to the fact that Jon needs Dany far more than Dany needs Jon. Any power that Jon has comes down to "if you don't meet the Walkers with me, you'll meet the Walkers without me," which basically means she'll meet the Walkers, with or without his rather limited support. She might then return with "Ok, go off and die, then. Gives me time to take down Cersei and make some obsidian weapons."

Think how quickly Cat agreed to Renly's demands. Back then, Robb needed allies, and Cat got Robb an ally, giving up some portion of Northern independence. Same, I suspect, will go for Jon. What should save him is this is Dany, whom the show is desperate to present as positively as possible. She will almost certainly demand some capitulation, but not total capitulation.

If WW overrun the North, then they will likely get into South where Dany will have to fight them. It’s true that South has a greater population, but on the other hand the greater population in the South makes the South more vulnerable, since more people can fall victim to the White Walkers and their hordes and the fact that the greater population centers of the South provide more “recruits” for the White Walker armies. There is a good chance that if the White Walkers penetrate in the South in force, Dany will not be able to stop them, particularly given the fact 1) they seem to be superb night fighters, 2) and are capable of operating on large fronts since they would not seemingly be constrained by supply issues the way a human army would. The ability of the WW to fight primarily at night and to operate over large geographic regions potentially lessens the effects of Dany’s dragons.

Also, Dany’s troops are not well suited to fighting a war in cold weather combat conditions. During heavy snows, her Dothraki troops would likely become near worthless, being unable to use their horses during severe snows. The Unsullied have never lived in or trained in severe cold weather.The Northerners, and the Wildings, are much better suited to fighting during severe cold weather conditions

Dany would have every strategic reason to blunt to the White Walker attack in the North before it spills over into the South. If Jon is a rational person, he’d know this and he’d use it in his dealings. It really isn’t about whether Jon “needs Dany more, than Dany needs Jon” because if the don’t cooperate they may both be screwed, even if on the balance Dany has more resources at her disposal because those resources may not be enough for her to prevail over the WW by herself.

Also, I don’t think the North is as politically disunited as you seem to indicate. Except, for Sandra and LF playing whatever games they are going to play, the North, the NW, and the Wildlings seem pretty behind Jon at this point.

With regard to Bran, I think your underestimating his potential value. Even if all Bran is capable of is having visions of what others are doing, that’s extremely valuable. Think of it as being the Westerosi version of “real time battlefield intelligence” something that most commanders would kill for. Knowing what your enemy is doing and where he is headed is a significant force multiplier. And I’m pretty sure Bran and Meera will return to WF next season.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

In the context of the show she is the heir to Winterfell (with Bran assumed dead). I will repeat this again even Jon recognizes this when he tells her that the Lords chambers belongs to her and not him. And I hate to break this you but if the northerners now get to choose their king they are going to select the person that can actually lead them and fight in the impending invasion and not the legitimate child that can't walk.

 

Sansa tells Jon to go to fight in tbotb for Bran and Arya and she never says they are dead. Theon told her they weren't and Sam told Jon he saw him.

so they are not assuming Bran is dead but, if anything, that he is lost somewhere and can't know where he is and he can't return for some reason.DEAD? Could be but they both know he has survived some seasons and even Rickon did and they saw that with their own eyes.

[Evarei]

On 26.10.2016 at 8:06 PM, NorthernXY said:

Bad writing.

So he should just sit on his ass at the high table, tucked in Winterfell all season playing political games with Sansa and Littlefinger? Not take action to prepare for the Long Night? Not even try to seek more allies and resources? As a leader and doer he should just give out orders and hope everyone's competent enough for the tasks? Yes that's such a good compelling writing, brilliant narrative. It'd have been the worst possible scenario. Most people were actually dreading this. Thinking that's what Jon's arc would be reduced to in season 7. 

And if you actually believe book Jon doesn't eventually find himself on Dragonstone...

[kg1982]

Jon submitting to Mary Sue as her submissive boy toy is what I hate most about the leaks.  Ugh.  Not a fan of Dany and not a fan of the relationship.