Snippets from season 7

[Sir Matthis Light]

Would anyone happen to know what we know from the leaks that have been debunked, I saw this mention in the whole "Jon a wimp for kneeling argument" that was going on.

[nothatso]

20 minutes ago, Sir Matthis Light said:

Would anyone happen to know what we know from the leaks that have been debunked, I saw this mention in the whole "Jon a wimp for kneeling argument" that was going on.

I don't know about "debunked", but in regards to that discussion - the original leaker (Awayforthelads) said only that Jon would eventually offer to kneel if Dany helped him. Somebody else then later added on that Dany would tell him he doesn't have to kneel, but he would do so anyway. That person said they got that info via a pm from Awayforthelads, so it's second hand info. Not everything passed around as part of the leaks actually is was part of them.

 

I do want to say that these comparisons of other people who have knelt in defense of the act don't really hold water to me. People like Tyrion, Brienne, and Ned weren't monarchs ruling a kingdom that lost tens of thousands in their attempts to gain independence. It is a bit silly for Jon to just surrender their sovereignty to Dany with little resistance, especially if Dany is warming up to him to the point where it shouldn't be necessary.

[Winterstars]

2 hours ago, kg1982 said:

Last time I checked monarchs can execute people who defy them.  Dany could just have Jon's head if he disagrees with her.  Again, what does Jon bring to the table in terms of anything?  He did bring the North and gave that up for free, so he has absolutely zero leverage with her.  

And the stupidest part of the leaks i.e. the wight hunt and demonstration have been confirmed so I am not sure which parts have been debunked.  We can just assume that the rest of it is true.  This is going to be a bad season.  

And yes, I dislike Dany because she comes off as Mary Sue-ish and perfect especially in the shows.  I tend to skip her chapters in the books or skim through them because they are so boring.  Let's have another chapter of bad Orientalism and weird names in Meereen.  People get to have favorites and unfavorites.  However, my main issue is the god awfulness of the apparent plot for this season.  I'd be fine with a good Dany plot like her beating Cersei!  Wight hunting and boat sex aren't good plots.

Just how the hell you can brag yourself about being able to understand her and call her character development is less than any other characters when in fact you tend to skip her chapters? Just how the hell do you know that? Based on fanfiction and your own speculation based on nothing?

Please read again and don't skip her chapters this time, so that you might find something about her that you miss a lot.

1 hour ago, kg1982 said:

My main issue with the leaks are that they emphasize a relationship I really dislike in a way that is corny as hell and also seem to put forward Dany as a perfect savior, which I hate.  I think that Dany is much less well developed as a character than others in the books because her plot is so mind numbingly boring.  It seems like the showrunners are putting these one-dimensional characteristics forward, especially the fact that every man must somehow fall deeply in love with her.  

And I am a show fan because the show streamlined some of the parts of the books that I hated like FAegon.  I also don't think that we are going to get any more books.  I think that Martin has tied himself into so many knots that he cannot untie.  I actually liked Season 6 quite a bit, especially the season finale, so it is disappointing to me that the plot is so awful.  It seems like the quality has decreased immensely.  

As for Jon and the North, his position is quite tenuous.  There is nothing to suggest that his lords won't abandon him for kneeling and especially sleeping with some foreign queen.  In fact, Lord Glover's line about Talisa in Season 6 was telling.  Jon's kingship is contingent on him supporting Northern independence.  If he gives that up, he loses their support.  If he loses their support, there is nothing to suggest that they wouldn't be like whateverz to Jon and be indifferent if she executes him for defying her.  That is what makes it different than what happened to Rickard and Brandon Stark.  Jon brings absolutely nothing to the table for her and is completely expendable.  There are other Starks with better claims.  So no, he cannot defy her and hope to live.  He gave up his only leverage for nothing in return.  

You really are biased here dude. Please put aside the hatred and think more clearly. Because by hatred, you won't be able to solve anything wisely.

Besides, you haven't seen how this will play out on screen. Even the leaks didn't say a complete event. He was just telling us what will happen, and NOT WHAT MAKES IT HAPPENS THAT WAY or THE WHOLE REASON BEHIND IT.

[kg1982]

1 minute ago, Winterstars said:

Just how the hell you can brag yourself about being able to understand her and call her character development is less than any other characters when in fact you tend to skip her chapters? Just how the hell do you know that? Based on fanfiction and your own speculation based on nothing?

Please read again and don't skip her chapters so you might find something about her that you miss a lot.

You really are biased here dude. Please put aside the hatred and think more clearly. Because by hatred, you won't be able to solve anything wisely.

Besides, you haven't seen how this will play out on screen. Even the leaks didn't say a complete event. He was just telling us what will happen, and NOT WHAT MAKES IT HAPPENS THAT WAY or THE WHOLE REASON BEHIND IT.

I skim through her chapters rather than reading them.  Dany's chapters were full of Orientalism, one dimensional moustache twirling villains, and odd names.  I don't give a fig about the slavers in Essos and think that the entire plot takes away from stuff that is more interesting in Westros.  The only intriguing chapter in Dany's plot for me was Ser Barristan's and this is because it gave us more information about Westros and the tourney at Harrenhal not because I care about the situation.  

And sorry but I get to hate a certain romance, which is stupid and cliche, and I get to hate how it plays out in the plot.  Seriously, how is sex on a boat interspersed with the Wall falling not corny as hell?  And why isn't wight hunting and allying with Cersei something that even Stupid Ned Stark would question as being naive?  There is no context, dialogue, and pretty pictures that can make wight hunting, allying with Cersei, and the Jonerys cheese-fest good.  Please let's not try to justify it.

[Winterstars]

2 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

I skim through her chapters rather than reading them.  Dany's chapters were full of Orientalism, one dimensional moustache twirling villains, and odd names.  I don't give a fig about the slavers in Essos and think that the entire plot takes away from stuff that is more interesting in Westros.  The only intriguing chapter in Dany's plot for me was Ser Barristan's and this is because it gave us more information about Westros and the tourney at Harrenhal not because I care about the situation.  

And sorry but I get to hate a certain romance, which is stupid and cliche, and I get to hate how it plays out in the plot.  Seriously, how is sex on a boat interspersed with the Wall falling not corny as hell?  And why isn't wight hunting and allying with Cersei something that even Stupid Ned Stark would question as being naive?  There is no context, dialogue, and pretty pictures that can make wight hunting, allying with Cersei, and the Jonerys cheese-fest good.  Please let's not try to justify it.

Yes, that's why I can say that you know nothing about her at all. So please stop the hatred based on nothing.

And about your second paragraph, let's just wait and see, or we can speculate any possibility with good manner. Even I also think some leaks do sound stupid as hell (yes that boat sex included), but I know nothing about how the fuck that can be happened. The leaks just contain rough outline, with some important details missing.

So I just hope we can have discussion with no more bashing or hard feelings.

[Lord Friendzone]

1 hour ago, nothatso said:

I don't know about "debunked", but in regards to that discussion - the original leaker (Awayforthelads) said only that Jon would eventually offer to kneel if Dany helped him. Somebody else then later added on that Dany would tell him he doesn't have to kneel, but he would do so anyway. That person said they got that info via a pm from Awayforthelads, so it's second hand info. Not everything passed around as part of the leaks actually is was part of them.

 

I do want to say that these comparisons of other people who have knelt in defense of the act don't really hold water to me. People like Tyrion, Brienne, and Ned weren't monarchs ruling a kingdom that lost tens of thousands in their attempts to gain independence. It is a bit silly for Jon to just surrender their sovereignty to Dany with little resistance, especially if Dany is warming up to him to the point where it shouldn't be necessary.

That wasn't from awayforthelads. He or she just corrected awayfothelads on Jon kneeling to Dany by adding how he talked to her about his childhood and how it was raising without his mother. That redditor phyctr also added that Kit and Emilia have extensive shooting in Iceland. Is that what you mean?

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/58ny0p/about_the_leaks/d927g08/?context=3

[Farerb]

40 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

I skim through her chapters rather than reading them.  Dany's chapters were full of Orientalism, one dimensional moustache twirling villains, and odd names.  I don't give a fig about the slavers in Essos and think that the entire plot takes away from stuff that is more interesting in Westros.  The only intriguing chapter in Dany's plot for me was Ser Barristan's and this is because it gave us more information about Westros and the tourney at Harrenhal not because I care about the situation.  

And sorry but I get to hate a certain romance, which is stupid and cliche, and I get to hate how it plays out in the plot.  Seriously, how is sex on a boat interspersed with the Wall falling not corny as hell?  And why isn't wight hunting and allying with Cersei something that even Stupid Ned Stark would question as being naive?  There is no context, dialogue, and pretty pictures that can make wight hunting, allying with Cersei, and the Jonerys cheese-fest good.  Please let's not try to justify it.

I think you confuse again between Show!Dany and Book!Dany and judge Book!Dany based on Show!Dany. They are two different characters! 

Daenerys' arc in Meereen is the most complicated political situation in the books and has a lot of internal conflicts that Daenerys has to face, so if you are the type who likes the action oriented aspect of the books more than the political intrigue and the character driven then I get why you didn't enjoy Daenerys Chapters.

As for the leaked plot, I agree it's ridiculous, but not necessarily because of Jon and Daenerys' romance, but I stopped figuring logic on the show since D&D don't care about it, things happen because they want them to happen and nothing makes sense anymore.

[Commander Jon Snow]

As someone who predicted Jon and Dany getting together when I first read the books (which was around the time I joined this site in 2012), I feel so vindicated by these spoilers. So many people back then saying that it had no chance that they actually convinced me that it probably wasn't going to happen. Guess I should have gone with my initial instinct 

[Commander Jon Snow]

2 hours ago, principenoprometido said:

A Song of Ice and Fire is Rhaegar and Lyanna, jon (stark and targaryen) or white walkers vs Dragons not a stupid romance between jon and platinum idiot.

LOL nope. Jon is my favorite character (just check my name) but I never bought this theory for him. People always talked about him as this main savior character who is the true hero of the story. Yeah... that IS a trope and there is no way George would write something like that. This kind of analysis always simplified his character into the basic hero's journey and made him into another Luke Skywalker type character

Hell, George even said in an interview that 'Ice and Fire' generally just refers to the Others and Daenerys and her dragons respectively.

[Evarei]

Someone pointed it out on reddit (and provided Lads' comment on it, if it's true) that there could be 'leak-traps' in the script. Jon's name being Aegon could be that. Or a placeholder.

[Lover of the North]

Hello.  I am new here.  In regards to the leaks and the upcoming season, first I want to say that I don't know how it will play out on the screen this year so I will concede to that part.  But as a fan of the world of ice and fire, I am kind of let down so far by the plot development this season.  Some posters believe that the boat sex part takes place while the wall if falling, others are defending this plot point and insisting that this isn't the case..  But either way, after the deed is done, king jon snow will forever associate his sex with Dany with the wall falling.    How could he not? I am sure there will be posters who will disagree.  But if these leaks are true, then yes, he will discover the wall falling after the sex scene.  Also, when Jonerys show the wight to Cersei and company, the very purpose of it is to bring humanity together to fight the real war.  How ironic, if the leaks are true, that this very deed results in the wall falling, even though that wasn't their intent.  Their actions can result in the death of humanity. His entire purpose is to save humanity. Instead their actions can bring about the death of humanity. Combining that with the boat sex gives me a feeling of concern.  You can say what you want, but there is a definite association.  When Danerys insists on saving Khol Drogo her way and she didn't listen to her advisers, what was the result?  His death, of course.  When she frees the slaves of course her intentions are good but what were the results?  Alot of death as she even admits in her chapters. I am sure there will be an argument against what I am posting and this is fine as we all have our own thoughts.  But it is just a subliminal message in there I think.

[kg1982]

6 hours ago, Winterstars said:

Yes, that's why I can say that you know nothing about her at all. So please stop the hatred based on nothing.

And about your second paragraph, let's just wait and see, or we can speculate any possibility with good manner. Even I also think some leaks do sound stupid as hell (yes that boat sex included), but I know nothing about how the fuck that can be happened. The leaks just contain rough outline, with some important details missing.

So I just hope we can have discussion with no more bashing or hard feelings.

Boat sex cannot be done in a good and positive fashion without it being as dumb and corny as bad teen romance fiction.  The whole concept itself is corny and no dialogue is going to make it better.  And I am not going to sit around and suggest that this plot is good when it isn't.

[Evarei]

Jon's in survival mode. We saw it in Hardhome, he's even willing to ally with cannibals as long as they fix their gaze on the biggest threat. He's not looking to make friends, he's looking to have people in power focus on one goal. Survival. He doesn't care if they resume their squabbles afterwards, he just needs them to realise they have a bigger problem than each other at the moment. But Cersei is too far gone to see reason. And Tyrion should know that. He knows her better than anyone. He should explain that to Jon and others. He does reach out to Jaime to try to sabotage Cersei from within instead of carrying out a full scale attack on KL which would only result in countless innocent deaths (like he informs Daenerys). But Jaime is understandably reluctant to trust Tyrion (he did kill their father and is a prime suspect in Joffrey's assassination) and to just switch alliegiance to the Mad King's daughter, someone he doesn't know, someone who's looking to take over through violence. Daenerys seems reluctant to just take Jon's word for it as well. So they reach an impasse. Neither side wants to cease fire. Neither side wants to commit to Jon's cause. He needs to knock sense into them and he can't do it with words. Hence the desperate measure. The need for proof to make them see, hoping their survival instinct takes precedence. Getting Jaime and Daenerys on board is what Jon's intention should be, not much to do with Cersei.

[kg1982]

5 hours ago, farerb said:

I think you confuse again between Show!Dany and Book!Dany and judge Book!Dany based on Show!Dany. They are two different characters! 

Daenerys' arc in Meereen is the most complicated political situation in the books and has a lot of internal conflicts that Daenerys has to face, so if you are the type who likes the action oriented aspect of the books more than the political intrigue and the character driven then I get why you didn't enjoy Daenerys Chapters.

As for the leaked plot, I agree it's ridiculous, but not necessarily because of Jon and Daenerys' romance, but I stopped figuring logic on the show since D&D don't care about it, things happen because they want them to happen and nothing makes sense anymore.

Yeah.  I don't care about the political situation in Meereen and many of the villains are one dimensional compared to those in Westros.  Tywin and LF vs. Slaver #5 don't compare.  And I actually like political intrigue and the political aspects.  I just don't care about Dany in a city that isn't connected to the main plot in a holding pattern.  

And Jon and Dany's badly written Twilight relationship is one of the three worst things in the plot - the others being wight hunting and Cersei's pregnancy.  Oh and Mean Girls Winterfell.

[kg1982]

6 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

That wasn't from awayforthelads. He or she just corrected awayfothelads on Jon kneeling to Dany by adding how he talked to her about his childhood and how it was raising without his mother. That redditor phyctr also added that Kit and Emilia have extensive shooting in Iceland. Is that what you mean?

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/58ny0p/about_the_leaks/d927g08/?context=3

Yep and the person sent to clean up this leak makes it even stupider and more pointless.  I get Jon giving up his title for Dany's political support.  I do not get this Twilight induced twue wuv nonsense.

[Lord Friendzone]

12 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

Yep and the person sent to clean up this leak makes it even stupider and more pointless.  I get Jon giving up his title for Dany's political support.  I do not get this Twilight induced twue wuv nonsense.

Gonna trust awayforthelads on this. It's not Twilight nonsense. First you haven't seen it, it was foreshadowed that they might get involved and we don't know in which context it'll be and dialog. But you already read the scripts, saw it and knows that it will be bullshit. Congrats, you must have good sources.

[Lover of the North]

Thank you.  Good to be here.  I am going to concede and embrace these leaks.  However, we must be careful what we wish for. You might not be too happy with the result in the end. You see, for 20 years readers have been waiting for Jon/Dany and now they are victorious.  Hmm... well let's take a good look at what we have here, based on these leaks.  Let us take a look at what your victory really means. Even if it plays out differently on the screen, the reality of Jonerys is this:  (and if the leaks are true, I don't see how this could be disputed but I am sure it will be) Dany saves Jon during the wight mission, I assume in episode 6.  Due to her own well meaning actions by bringing Viserion, the end result is the wall falling down. We know this since according to the leaks Viserion becomes a wight and the NK rides him and uses him to bring down the wall.  I am not even going to get into the boat sex, I will leave that for another time.  Once again her well meaning actions result in the potential death, in this case, of humanity.  Jon having a relationship with her sadly reminds me of Catlin Stark's warning to Rob, the previous King in the North. Catlin talked about how she grew to love Ned over time but originally she was infatuated with Brandon, who she was betrothed to.  She tried to convince him to marry the Frey girl and we know the end result of Rob's choices. The parallels between Rob and Jon are very disconcerting.  It is interesting how Cersei is the most obvious villain, who is in our face.  But the real antagonist, even if her heart is the right place, might possibly be Dany after all.  It is amazing how well hidden this is. 

[Evarei]

I find it a more compelling path to take Jon and Dany on than any other alternative. Have them become close on unadulterated terms, only to pull the rug out from under them by hitting them hard with R+L=J and not just that but R+L= legitimate J. How are their dynamics going to change? How is Jon going to take what he did with his aunt? Will his feelings for her be too strong for the ickly factor of the nature of their relationship? Will he actually be in love with her anyway? Daenerys won't have a problem with the sexual/love part but may have a problem with him being above her in terms of succession. Will she step aside for him?  Will she turn out to be power-hungry after all? Or will he make things easy for her and reject the throne or be killed? Will there even be a chance to touch upon those issues? Will there be a baby involved to complicate matters more?

I'm glad that season 8 doesn't look like it's going to be all about White Walkers vs humanity, that there are going to be internal conflicts as well.

@kg1982 What is it with you and this freak out over 'twue wuv'? You're blowing it all out of proportion. It doesn't sound like this is the case in s7 at all (it could develop into that in s8 though). Love is questionable. Admiration or even physical attraction doesn't have to mean love is all around. It's just sex, it doesn't need love to happen. Both Jon and Dany are adults and know that. And they're not going to have sex under fluffy, romantic circumstances, but dark and dubious.

 

[kg1982]

5 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Gonna trust awayforthelads on this. It's not Twilight nonsense. First you haven't seen it, it was foreshadowed that they might get involved and we don't know in which context it'll be and dialog. But you already read the scripts, saw it and knows that it will be bullshit. Congrats, you must have good sources.

Actually, the initial leak makes not only Jon look stupid but also Dany and Tyrion look really bad.  Tyrion is apparently a Yes Man who suddenly sees no wrong in Dany and Dany literally keeps an important dignitary hostage because she is butthurt that he won't pledge fealty to her.  Oh but she doesn't execute him despite executing the Tarlys for refusing to do the same thing because she apparently has the hots for him and would prefer him around as her boy toy.  Why would any Dany fan think that this is good?  It is a literal destruction of girl's character into a power hungry tyrant who toys with people who she is annoyed with and literally keeps someone trying to ally with her essentially imprisoned because she is butthurt that he doesn't accept her as queen.  The "clean up" of the leak (and it was likely a GOT employee in damage control mode) at least makes Tyrion and Dany seem in character.  Jon however comes off as an even bigger moron.  And yes given the Twilight twue wuv feel of the stupid romance, it totally makes more sense than the initial leak.  All the Jon-Dany 4ever fangirls will squee at him giving up his political leverage to her for nothing as being totally romantic.

[kg1982]

5 minutes ago, Evarei said:

I find it a more compelling path to take Jon and Dany on than any other alternative. Have them become close on unadulterated terms, only to pull the rug out from under them by hitting them hard with R+L=J and not just that but R+L= legitimate J. How are their dynamics going to change? How is Jon going to take what he did with his aunt? Will his feelings for her be too strong for the ickly factor of the nature of their relationship? Will he actually be in love with her anyway? Daenerys won't have a problem with the sexual/love part but may have a problem with him being above her in terms of succession. Will she step aside for him?  Will she turn out to be power-hungry after all? Or will he make things easy for her and reject the throne or be killed? Will there even be a chance to touch upon those issues? Will there be a baby involved to complicate matters more?

I'm glad that season 8 doesn't look like it's going to be all about White Walkers vs humanity, that there are going to be internal conflicts as well.

@kg1982 What is it with you and this freak out over 'twue wuv'? You're blowing it all out of proportion. It doesn't sound like this is the case in s7 at all (it could develop into that in s8 though). Love is questionable. Admiration or even physical attraction doesn't have to mean love is all around. It's just sex, it doesn't need love to happen. Both Jon and Dany are adults and know that. And they're not going to have sex under fluffy, romantic circumstances, but dark and dubious.

 

Because it is the stupidest and most clique relationship out there.  And boat sex interspersed with the Wall falling is corny as hell.  Corny as hell.

Oh and the zombie apocalypse apparently comes at the end of the season.  Westros is being overrun by hordes of the undead and yet Jon and Dany have time to discuss their relationship and Jon has time to work out his feels over Ned lying to him.  How exactly?  Is this when they are fighting off hordes of White Walkers and running for their lives?