Why making Yara bisexual makes a lot of sense (hour long video)

[The Dragon Demands]

Why making Yara Greyjoy bisexual actually makes a lot of sense (hour long video).

I'm actually the guy that asked GRRM and he confirmed that Asha isn't gay or bi in the novels.  Okay, this is a change - but is it a bad change?  That is, incongruent with their society We never knew what ironborn attitudes about homosexuality are, their religion is different from the mainland.  So based on my graduate-level history courses on medieval women & gender.......yeah, I realized that the ironborn have a Top/Bottom dichotomy, not Heterosexual/Homosexual, which is actually what the real-life Middle Ages were like.  BOTH Christian Western Europe AND the pagan Vikings in Scandinavia had Top/Bottom dichotomy.

And historically, societies that had a Top/Bottom model tacitly tolerated female homosexuality -- or rather, they didn't even recognize it as a category.  A woman having "sexual contact" with another woman wasn't seen as "actual sex" -- it wasn't "a category" to them.

So it struck me that this actually matches the social model of the real-life Vikings in like, ancient Sweden, AND matched what we know about the ironborn (re; Maester Kerwin in book 5).  

[Wall Flower]

11 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Why making Yara Greyjoy bisexual actually makes a lot of sense (hour long video).

I'm actually the guy that asked GRRM and he confirmed that Asha isn't gay or bi in the novels.  Okay, this is a change - but is it a bad change?  That is, incongruent with their society We never knew what ironborn attitudes about homosexuality are, their religion is different from the mainland.  So based on my graduate-level history courses on medieval women & gender.......yeah, I realized that the ironborn have a Top/Bottom dichotomy, not Heterosexual/Homosexual, which is actually what the real-life Middle Ages were like.  BOTH Christian Western Europe AND the pagan Vikings in Scandinavia had Top/Bottom dichotomy.

And historically, societies that had a Top/Bottom model tacitly tolerated female homosexuality -- or rather, they didn't even recognize it as a category.  A woman having "sexual contact" with another woman wasn't seen as "actual sex" -- it wasn't "a category" to them.

So it struck me that this actually matches the social model of the real-life Vikings in like, ancient Sweden, AND matched what we know about the ironborn (re; Maester Kerwin in book 5).  

Just wondering what happened to your other thread on Gender and Sexuality - in the General Section. It was a great series but seems to have been deleted.

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Why making Yara Greyjoy bisexual actually makes a lot of sense (hour long video).

I'm actually the guy that asked GRRM and he confirmed that Asha isn't gay or bi in the novels.  Okay, this is a change - but is it a bad change?  That is, incongruent with their society We never knew what ironborn attitudes about homosexuality are, their religion is different from the mainland.  So based on my graduate-level history courses on medieval women & gender.......yeah, I realized that the ironborn have a Top/Bottom dichotomy, not Heterosexual/Homosexual, which is actually what the real-life Middle Ages were like.  BOTH Christian Western Europe AND the pagan Vikings in Scandinavia had Top/Bottom dichotomy.

And historically, societies that had a Top/Bottom model tacitly tolerated female homosexuality -- or rather, they didn't even recognize it as a category.  A woman having "sexual contact" with another woman wasn't seen as "actual sex" -- it wasn't "a category" to them.

So it struck me that this actually matches the social model of the real-life Vikings in like, ancient Sweden, AND matched what we know about the ironborn (re; Maester Kerwin in book 5).  

It does rather trash Asha's character though, to change her from having a loving relationship with Qarl the Maid, to making use of a slave.  And "I'm going to fuck the tits off this one" is especially cringeworthy dialogue.

[Ruhail]

33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It does rather trash Asha's character though, to change her from having a loving relationship with Qarl the Maid, to making use of a slave.  And "I'm going to fuck the tits off this one" is especially cringeworthy dialogue.

And her being abusive to her brother for no reason even when he's renounced his feudal position for her.

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

And her being abusive to her brother for no reason even when he's renounced his feudal position for her.

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that.  Again, Asha in the books is horrified when she encounters Theon, after his escape.  Yara tells him to man up, or kill himself.

 

[Queen of Procrastination]

35 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It does rather trash Asha's character though, to change her from having a loving relationship with Qarl the Maid, to making use of a slave.  And "I'm going to fuck the tits off this one" is especially cringeworthy dialogue.

 

1 minute ago, Ruhail said:

And her being abusive to her brother for no reason even when he's renounced his feudal position for her.

I agree with both of your staments and I will combine them.

We basically have Yara/Asha talking about trauma in a way that is abusive and a complete slap in the face of people who have experienced something traumatic, while abusing a sex slave. What kind of message does this send? As what kind of person do these acts protay her? My answer to both questions would be not a good one.

On top of that it provides us with stereotypical view on lesbian characters. For a long time many people believed (and some people still do) that lesbians were women who behaved very similar to men and had more masculine than femine traits. Now, the show gives us Yara/Asha as a lesbian character who totally fulfills this stereotype. This is a bit similar to how Loras and Renly were portrayed as stereotypical gay charactes. 

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

 

I agree with both of your staments and I will combine them.

We basically have Yara/Asha talking about trauma in a way that is abusive and a complete slap in the face of people who have experienced something traumatic, while abusing a sex slave. What kind of message does this send? As what kind of person do these acts protay her? My answer to both questions would be not a good one.

On top of that it provides us with stereotypical view on lesbian characters. For a long time many people believed (and some people still do) that lesbians were women who behaved very similar to men and had more masculine than femine traits. Now, the show gives us Yara/Asha as a lesbian character who totally fulfills this stereotype. This is a bit similar to how Loras and Renly were portrayed as stereotypical gay charactes. 

I doubt if the Ironborn would have much knowledge of PTSD, but I find it quite credible that even in such a time and place, Asha would be very distressed at seeing the condition of her brother after months of brutal torture, and sympathetic to his plight.  Even in ancient times, people were well aware that torture could leave people mentally damaged, as well as physically damaged (really, the whole point of torture is to break people mentally).

As to the second point, yes, she's stereotypically butch.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

42 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

We basically have Yara/Asha talking about trauma in a way that is abusive and a complete slap in the face of people who have experienced something traumatic, while abusing a sex slave. What kind of message does this send? As what kind of person do these acts protay her? My answer to both questions would be not a good one.

Exactly. And next she promises Daenerys that the Ironborn will stop plunder and rape with immediate effect. Does it sound believable? No.

[The Dragon Demands]

6 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Just wondering what happened to your other thread on Gender and Sexuality - in the General Section. It was a great series but seems to have been deleted.

Oh it's still there; it's just that it fit better in the books subforum - AND I posted this video into it too.  I just thought the TV crowd in the TV subforum might want to see this. 

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

It does rather trash Asha's character though, to change her from having a loving relationship with Qarl the Maid, to making use of a slave.  And "I'm going to fuck the tits off this one" is especially cringeworthy dialogue.

....Asha has flings with men but she doesn't really do "long term loving relationships" if you're talking about removing Qarl.

My primary point in the video is "this makes sense for the ironborn on a societal level". 
Several have pointed out, with validity, that TV-Yara is having sex with a slave prostitute and this brings up moral issues.  First, I see the two decisions as separate.  Second....even Tyrion in the books, or like, protagonists in HBO's "Rome" have sex with slave prostitutes - does this make them automatically "bad"?  Historians try not to judge past societies - *we* think its bad, do they, in their context, know it's bad?  I'm not trying to dismiss such concerns, don't get me wrong, but I understood their point as "she's doing what any ironborn man would do".  How many other ironborn men have salt wives they literally captured as prisoners of war to make into concubines? 

But that's why it's a multi-part question:  "Does making Yara bisexual make sense?" ....yeah, actually.  Separately, "should we show characters in the TV show having sex with slave prostitutes?  Should Yara have done that?" -- separate, more grey question, but their culture is different.

3 hours ago, Ruhail said:

And her being abusive to her brother for no reason even when he's renounced his feudal position for her.

.....while I'm not one to defend D&D, haha, I hated this at first but when I saw their behind the scenes video where they explained that I actually understood what they were trying to do:  they said that Yara isn't a psychotherapist and if you think about it, the ironborn are a very blunt culture, much more than the mainland, so in their view, it would have been unrealistic to the character for her to talk differently - and she is kind of sympathetic by the end after realizing she's been a bit too hard. 
Do I prefer the books where she's utterly horrified to realize he's alive but heavily tortured and mutilated (missing fingers etc)?  Yeah.  Though the context of that meeting was different. 

It's.....as opposed to "creatively it made sense to us because we wanted it to happen"....in this instance they actually bothered to think up "a rationale" for why this is happening, why Yara is acting tough like this.   And while I might not agree 100%...at least this was something they actually "thought out".

But don't get me wrong:  for separate reasons, I openly want Benioff and Weiss to be fired. 

3 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

On top of that it provides us with stereotypical view on lesbian characters. For a long time many people believed (and some people still do) that lesbians were women who behaved very similar to men and had more masculine than femine traits. Now, the show gives us Yara/Asha as a lesbian character who totally fulfills this stereotype. This is a bit similar to how Loras and Renly were portrayed as stereotypical gay charactes. 

.....I don't think they portrayed Renly and Loras stereotypically.  Oh there was a line here or a line there was that a little off, but on the whole, yeah we see Loras as this tough masculine tournament knight, Renly isn't a complete fop but is a politician, etc. 

I explain this more in the main video I made on "Gender and Sexuality" but....yeah, moreso than modern culture, Medieval people thought that gender behavior and sexual orientation were inherently linked.  Albeit this is a stereotype (Richard the Lionheart didn't fit that model). 

But there's also the issue of....I've seen posts by butch queer women complaining why every queer female character these days in TV and movies needs to be femme, and they feel like they're being marginalized. 

[The Dragon Demands]

7 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Just wondering what happened to your other thread on Gender and Sexuality - in the General Section. It was a great series but seems to have been deleted.

.....yeah, now that I check.  I was given no explanation.  Will ask about this.

[Cron]

On 10/16/2016 at 4:06 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

Why making Yara Greyjoy bisexual actually makes a lot of sense (hour long video).

I'm actually the guy that asked GRRM and he confirmed that Asha isn't gay or bi in the novels.  Okay, this is a change - but is it a bad change?  That is, incongruent with their society We never knew what ironborn attitudes about homosexuality are, their religion is different from the mainland.  So based on my graduate-level history courses on medieval women & gender.......yeah, I realized that the ironborn have a Top/Bottom dichotomy, not Heterosexual/Homosexual, which is actually what the real-life Middle Ages were like.  BOTH Christian Western Europe AND the pagan Vikings in Scandinavia had Top/Bottom dichotomy.

And historically, societies that had a Top/Bottom model tacitly tolerated female homosexuality -- or rather, they didn't even recognize it as a category.  A woman having "sexual contact" with another woman wasn't seen as "actual sex" -- it wasn't "a category" to them.

So it struck me that this actually matches the social model of the real-life Vikings in like, ancient Sweden, AND matched what we know about the ironborn (re; Maester Kerwin in book 5).  

What is the evidence that Yara is bisexual, rather than just lesbian?

[The Dragon Demands]

Actress said it, though that's semi-canon.

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

They probably just say she's bi-sexual to explain why the Iron Born following her would follow her. if she were a full lesbian, she would be seen as a one generation bloodline and then they'd be back into a chaotic kingsmoot.

[MoreOrLess]

 

On ‎17‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 0:19 PM, SeanF said:

I doubt if the Ironborn would have much knowledge of PTSD, but I find it quite credible that even in such a time and place, Asha would be very distressed at seeing the condition of her brother after months of brutal torture, and sympathetic to his plight.  Even in ancient times, people were well aware that torture could leave people mentally damaged, as well as physically damaged (really, the whole point of torture is to break people mentally).

As to the second point, yes, she's stereotypically butch.

One issue of course is that on the show Yara does make a failed attempt to rescue Theon that costs the lives of a number of her followers and its this that drives a lot of her early reaction to his return. WHilst your right that someone like Yara/Asha should have some knowledge of PTSD like symptoms Theon's reaction against her in that rescue is more akin to brainwashing, something obviously not as easy to understand.

We do of course see that she does care about Theon latter in the same scene which to me gives the impression that she was previously looking to draw him back to his old self, of course whether "his old self" is entirely a good thing is questionable and its certainly possible she will learn from him.

A big issue as well for me is that on the show Yara really hasn't been given a great deal of depth yet beyond disliking her father and caring about Theon. Presenting the character as too morally perfect at this stage would leave much less room for advancement.

Generally Dany's forces are composed of a lot of elements that don't seem to live up to the highest moral standards and I suspect that whilst Elaria and the Sand Snakes will be killed one way or another due to this Yara and Theon will be much more likely to show the ability to become more moral(or in Theons case for actively show it). What we've seen of Yara afterall is you could argue someone very much a product of her society, actually much more towards the moral end than most but still carrying many of its faults.

[I'll pay the iron price]

We need to see Yara with her kit off.....

[John Doe]

Making her bisexual was a bad dicision. But, of course the cliche is that all women capable of violence are lesbians to some degree, so of the show just has to live up to this. It's the same with Loras who they degraded to a pussy based on his gayness. 

[Dragon in the North]

8 hours ago, John Doe said:

Making her bisexual was a bad dicision. But, of course the cliche is that all women capable of violence are lesbians to some degree, so of the show just has to live up to this. It's the same with Loras who they degraded to a pussy based on his gayness. 

Arya isn't gay

Brienne isn't gay

Sansa isn't gay

Cersei isn't gay

The Sandsnakes aren't gay

The Waif isn't gay

Lady Crane isn't gay

Olenna Tyrell isn't gay

[John Doe]

6 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Arya isn't gay

Brienne isn't gay

Sansa isn't gay

Cersei isn't gay

The Sandsnakes aren't gay

The Waif isn't gay

Lady Crane isn't gay

Olenna Tyrell isn't gay

Oh, you gotta know what I mean. It's basically this trope:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButchLesbian

 Women who behave in ways that are somewhat seen as typically manly are stereotypically portrayed as lesbians. Arya is too young to fit that stereotype, you're right about Brienne being the exception, Sansa doesn't fit the stereotype as she is pretty much the damsel in distress, Cersei doesn't fit the stereotype, the Waif is also too young, Lady Crane is a small side character and doesn't fit the stereotype, Olenna is an old woman and doesn't fit the stereotype. I should have maybe worded it differently.And my Loras point still stands. It's just unnecesary, especially since Martin said Asha is straight. But it's Yara anyway, so the difference in character is okay I guess. 

[urielisko]

On 10/29/2016 at 11:49 PM, John Doe said:

Oh, you gotta know what I mean

Being a successful Ironborn means having sex, often nonconsensual, with numerous women. Thus, Yara needs to bed numerous girls to prove herself a successful ironborn. Preferably in a casual, uncouth manner.

This is a very interesting difference between the books and the show, since Asha is straight and doesn't even feign bedding girls as part of her iron-born awesomeness. It is doubly problematic since firstly it reduces the degree to which she can be perceived as a successful captain and removes one extra lens through which we could see what the ironborn are, but also makes her appear more of a possible wife or lover in the eyes of the other captains - and which seems to me to contribute to her losing of the kingsmoot. That is not the end of it, since generally Yara from show appears a lot more openly and explicitly ruthless and brutal than Asha from the books - and actually Yara convinces me a lot more, considering that Ironborn are Vikings who never stop viking. No trade, no farming, no sheepherding. Just raid, pillage, murder, rape, rinse and repeat. Dothraki of the watery sea. It's a miracle they develop any mental and cultural traits understandable to other humans.

[BlueNightzx]

asha/yata being a lesbian destroy her character, the fact that she not only like men, but she likes pretty boys, gives her personality much more depth, she enjoys her sexuality and the pleasures of being a woman, without letting this seal her place in their society, she comes out much more stronger this way, than being set as the typical butch lesbian.