HBO's Westworld- Enter the maze [spoilers]

[karaddin]

I've thought from the first episode that a bunch of you are watching it as though it's Lost and looking for mysteries that haven't even been shown to be a mystery yet. I've watched it assuming entirely that it's all primarily a single time line and think it's been fantastic so far from that perspective, i also don't think I've been baited to even consider one timeline is 30 years in the past, so writing the show off for that seems unfair.

I think while it wasn't addressed as such, what Delores said after shooting the Confederales was a direct response to her conversation with Ford at the start (which was clearly in the present - he commented on how long she'd stayed on her loop since Arnold in that conversation, which anchors the William plot line in the present too). He challenged her other whether she chooses 'this' role for herself, the role of hero, and she denies it and answers like a perfect doll only to reveal at the end of the conversation that she'd been holding back after Ford leaves. After the shooting she comments that she chooses a story where she isn't the damsel, directly rebutting her compliant answer to Ford.

3 hours ago, Ariadne23 said:

Lots of critiques today in the media about the boring sex in Westworld. They have a point; it's pretty regressive. From Vox:

It definitely wasn't staged for the benefit of my demographic, in any case. Had no idea there was anything that could make me nostalgic for True Blood.

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that all of this was intentional - it wasn't meant to be sexy, it was meant to be the kind of explicit that so many people (and I'd say often their bosses at HBO) mistake for sexy. We are seeing it from a higher vantage and its all just shallow and crass, sexiness requires something more authentic than what was there.

I'm surprised there has been no discussion of the choice of name Robert Ford. I can't imagine that in a show dealing with the West, even through the theme park sci-fi setting, that the name of the man who killed Jesse James was a coincidental one. He's shown himself to be ruthless as hell with his very strongly implied threats flexing his neural control of the hosts, and his partner 'committed suicide' under circumstances that are mysterious - I say there is a decent chance he killed Arnold. I don't know enough about Robert Ford to infer more from the name though.

Finally I'm wondering if part of the fixation on the William = MIB is simply that we're so unused to a sci-fi story of this kind centring on a female character. If that theory is true, then its William/MIBs story and it fits our expectations from the industry. If its not true, then as has been stated and is indicated by ERW being the face of the show, its the story of the hosts primarily through Delores and Maeve, and that just isn't what we expect. To be clear I'm not even saying this expectation indicates any more than the background level of sexism in viewers - its about the sexism thats inherent in the industry and the genre.

[Baitac]

I think there's more than one Delores, Maeve, and Lawrence (Teddy) going on at the same time. We have guests who stay in town and others who travel to the other story lines within the same time period. Poor Maeve keeps coming back. I do not see how William is the MiB. Why on earth would he drag Delores by the hair and drag her and pull out a knife on her after closing the barn door? William loves her.

Also, if the MiB wants to find the center of the maze/truth, and Delores has old knowledge why doesn't Ford do away with the Dolores model and kick the MiB out of the park? The MiB is allowed to do as he wishes and go on this voyage of self-discovery because he's harmless to Ford. Thirty years of wandering around? I don't see it. Ford has said that they always know what the guests and hosts are doing. 

The greyhound story supported something I wrote earlier . Once they learn who they are, what are they to do? 

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I find it interesting that when Ford and the MiB were together Ford mentioned HER voyage of self discovery. 

[Ariadne23]

So, if it works out that the William = MiB thing is false, we've got all kinds of theories here that we can go back and consider for why people are hung up on it. But what if it's right? What theories will explain the denial reaction?

We have things like the changing park logo, changes to Sweetwater storefronts and street layouts, the stuff in the scenes from next week, etc. Again, I'm surprised it is so contentious. I think maybe if so many intelligent and reasonable people disagree, it's some third thing none of us have thought of yet.

I'm not sure I agree that any MiB/William connection makes Dolores less important to the story; I think she is the main character in this story either way - and not less so if it turns out that the journey of both these male characters, including MiB's desire to set them all free, started with her. But then the fact that the major "female" characters are actually male-created sex fantasy cyborgs no matter how you slice it is not lost on me. Any idea that it's an allegory for female liberation would be, you'd think, strained, by them eventually turning on and trying to murder all the humans. Maybe Dolores is the hero and intervenes.

 

[karaddin]

I don't think the standard 'slaughter ensues' is where this is actually going. If it is, I'll be disappointed because *that* is a story that has been done and I felt like it was trying to say something more interesting. This is Jonah Nolan coming off Person of Interest which managed to make an AI super intelligence with no visual image beyond text/icons on a monitor ridiculously sympathetic and relatable, I'm expecting that kind of work over 5 seasons here.

I wouldn't categorise my view on the William = MIB as denial, although I'll admit I don't like the idea, however I feel that a) the speculation to that end started well before there was justification for thinking it and people have been watching the show through that context since (whether we like it or not, its in our minds - even mine as I reject it) and b.) I don't feel that big a time gap is supported by the show we're seeing. I definitely accept *something* weird is going on beyond the straight linear narrative, and I'm even open to multiple timelines, but if William is 30 years in the past then I think the show has been sufficiently dodgy with the editing to count as dishonest and its just flat out bad. I'm fine with unreliable narrator, I'm fine with trick editing, but only to a certain point and this is way past that point. I think the biggest sticking point is just that the hosts don't match what we're told of how they were 30 years ago, what we see of the old host with Ford, what MIB describes of cutting them open - the ones in the William timeline are flesh and blood and functionally the same as the ones we see in MIB timeline.

I also think its far too much time spent dwelling on what happened in the past rather than moving the story forward, and this could definitely be true, but I'm very curious if that nitro in the bodies is part of the story (which would explain him becoming the most wanted man) or if its actually an attack on Delos. I'm definitely on board with Arnold is buried in at least some of the hosts like Delores.

I also took the satellite connection as being two way - its not just for corporate espionage, its allowing the hosts programming to be remotely modified and Delores has one in her and someone was actively fucking with her with the tarot scene rather than it being memories.

[Martini Sigil]

---The line that struck me last episode was during the Robert/miB meeting, the MiB mentioned something about saving the company after it almost having gone under when Arnold died...

I think that Elsie's discovery raises the question as to whether the hosts aberrant behavior is due to Ford's programming, or some outside source...

[Corvinus85]

5 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Interesting conversation between MiB and Ford. MiB implied that he thinks Ford may be a host. Ford's smirking 'voyage of self-discovery' after the discussion of looking for Arnold implies he thinks the MiB is in some way a manifestation of Arnold, or possibly simply a host as well.
 

Teddy's intervention with the knife should definitely give both men and us yet another proof that neither Ford not MiB are hosts.

[Ariadne23]

Re: standard "slaughter ensues" storyline: My guess is that "the incident" that took place about 30 years ago is something like that, so it's where the William storyline is going. We're seeing the lead up to "the incident."

Good Vanity Fair piece on the timeline theories, suggesting a third timeline. Buckle in kids. 

If Bernard is a recreated Arnold, could the scenes with Bernard and Dolores actually be flashbacks to...the original Arnold? I grabbed a screenshot of the photo and it's not as conclusively not him as I thought the first time I saw it.

ETA: Bernard Lowe is an anagram for Arnold Weber, but that's the kind of clue, I really, really don't miss about Lost.

[Trebla]

This series has me completely enthralled. There's so much going on that I've missed stuff  from the first watch. I'm re-watching ep. 3 and I just noticed two things. 1. During Ford's explanation of Arnold and the beginning of the park, we see two familiar faces: Delores' father Peter Abernathy and the hostess that introduced William to Westword. They were both original hosts. 

2. There is a possibility that the piano player in Ford's office IS Arnold, or at least an android version of him. Ford monologues about Arnold and the camera pans over to the piano player. I jumped online right now to see if there was more evidence and found photographic comparisons on reddit. It's possible.

And as for the overall story, I'm leaning towards the two timelines. People have asked what is Delores doing in the present timeline while Teddy has gone off with MiB? She's still in her loop but she's also infecting other hosts. Remember she got Maeve in ep. 2 with "These violent delights bring violent ends" and that has kicked off Maeve's awakening. 

I think Delores is the hero and the catalyst to two separate incidents in Westworld.

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Ariadne23 said:

Re: standard "slaughter ensues" storyline: My guess is that "the incident" that took place about 30 years ago is something like that, so it's where the William storyline is going. We're seeing the lead up to "the incident."

 

I could accept this if what is happening in the 'present' isn't just a repeat of the slaughter. I'm sure there are many ways they can take it in any direction that I'll find satisfying, as long as its not reliant on super deceptive editing of the shots. I can't remember the first couple of episodes too well, is the MIB definitively in the timeline where the incident was stated as 30 years ago? Is it remotely possible that William and Logan are 30 years on from that, and then the MIB is another unspecified amount of time into the future from them as the 'present'? I highly doubt its actually that anyway, just curious what we definitely know on the timeline.

[AndrewJ]

I'm surprised there's been no mention here of the Union officer very nearly choking Logan to death.

I'd assumed that the Hosts' programming wouldn't allow them to attempt to kill the guests - except via shooting, which we know doesn't work. But the fact that the Union officer almost killed Logan shows us that it is possible.

(or maybe everyone else assumed all along the hosts could kill the guests whenever/however they liked, so this isn't any sort of a revelation)

 

[Ariadne23]

26 minutes ago, AndrewJ said:

I'm surprised there's been no mention here of the Union officer very nearly choking Logan to death.

I'd assumed that the Hosts' programming wouldn't allow them to attempt to kill the guests - except via shooting, which we know doesn't work. But the fact that the Union officer almost killed Logan shows us that it is possible.

(or maybe everyone else assumed all along the hosts could kill the guests whenever/however they liked, so this isn't any sort of a revelation)

 

Early evidence of the onset of the incident? Except he wasn't all WTF I want my money back when it happened either. 

[karaddin]

I assumed it was something that can't happen more towards the centre, but that being subject to violence like this is part of the increased danger as you get further out. I initially thought Logan was going to be killed by the Confederales when William didn't help, but then he seemed to get a bit of a resigned look on his face but not fear I don't think. And I read William's response as saying "you wanted to play this game, you gotta see it out" rather than "I'm killing my boss and future brother in law", so I don't think its outside their expectations and the parameters of Westworld - they won't be able to actually kill him.

[polishgenius]

3 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Teddy's intervention with the knife should definitely give both men and us yet another proof that neither Ford not MiB are hosts.

Why? If Ford in particular is a host he's certainly not a standard one bound by the standard rules. There's definitely something weird going on with the him-and-Arnold story, and it seems likely that at least one higher-level AI came out of it. 


 

That also makes me think of Maeve. It doesn't actually seem like her talking when she wakes up at the end. Someone else is in control.

[red snow]

2 hours ago, Ariadne23 said:

Early evidence of the onset of the incident? Except he wasn't all WTF I want my money back when it happened either. 

Maybe Logen ticked the "erotic asphyxiation" box? He seems to be into dark stuff.

Someone mentioned clothing as evidence. If they can make hosts that don't age - I'm sure they can make duplicate clothing over a course of 30 odd years.

I wouldn't say William/MiB means they are the main character. I'm not sure the show has a central character yet but it does feel like most things revolve around Delores. It's her interacting with the William and MiB. It's her who appears to have forgotten something that needs to be rediscovered.

The MiB, Ford, Maeve and Bernard all have the potential to become a focus of the show but I suspect they are still supporting her story as of season 1.

[Biter]

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

I assumed it was something that can't happen more towards the centre, but that being subject to violence like this is part of the increased danger as you get further out. I initially thought Logan was going to be killed by the Confederales when William didn't help, but then he seemed to get a bit of a resigned look on his face but not fear I don't think. And I read William's response as saying "you wanted to play this game, you gotta see it out" rather than "I'm killing my boss and future brother in law", so I don't think its outside their expectations and the parameters of Westworld - they won't be able to actually kill him.

I agree, I see Sweetwater as a safe spot (although other guests can hit you, etc.) and that there are more dangerous areas of Westworld.

[Mark Antony]

5 hours ago, AndrewJ said:

I'm surprised there's been no mention here of the Union officer very nearly choking Logan to death.

I'd assumed that the Hosts' programming wouldn't allow them to attempt to kill the guests - except via shooting, which we know doesn't work. But the fact that the Union officer almost killed Logan shows us that it is possible.

(or maybe everyone else assumed all along the hosts could kill the guests whenever/however they liked, so this isn't any sort of a revelation)

I just assumed that it was the game getting tougher the farther out they got, didn't think he was in actual danger of being killed but I could be wrong. 

13 hours ago, Astromech said:

I think we're all just overanalyzing everything. Part of the fun and frustration with a weekly series typically not binged.

Agreed it's not the shows fault if some of these theories don't turn out to be true. 

13 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I'm growing to really hate the MiB=William theory. They spent far too much time and effort hinting at it..

Have they really though? Maybe I'm a dunce but  I wouldn't have even considered it if I never came online after watching and honestly I still think that the theory is bs but we will have to wait and see. 

[The Lone Rider]

If William is the Man in Black, how could Dolores have had a flashback of him in the barn when she was being attacked right before she ran into younger William ? I agree the signs and all are a little suspect, and there might be more than one version of the hosts, but still the flashback theory is taking things a bit too far. 

 

Westworld's problem is prioritizing mysteries before everything else. It's been five episodes and the only characters I give a damn about are Dolores, William and poor Teddy (I almost said MiB too. When MiB is the character the audience has been acquainted with the longest, you know you need to invest in your characters) Lost could sustain the 'mystery deepens !' because it's characters were awesome. In Westworld's case I'm still wondering whether or not Ford wants the hosts to become sentient 

[red snow]

41 minutes ago, The Lone Rider said:

If William is the Man in Black, how could Dolores have had a flashback of him in the barn when she was being attacked right before she ran into younger William ? I agree the signs and all are a little suspect, and there might be more than one version of the hosts, but still the flashback theory is taking things a bit too far. 

 

 

This is what turned me off the whole idea because the only plausible solution feels like cheating the viewer with obtuse writing/framing. Said workaround is simply that the Delores who ran into William wasn't coming straight from the scene where she shot the guy and saw MiB. She may well have ran from a very similar incident in the past - loops and all that. I find that tenuous.

The thing is I was just talking about the Lawrence thing with a colleague (hard working folks) and I now think it has to be two timelines or there are multiple copies of the same host. The "they fixed lawrence and put him in the part of Westworld William is in" is plausible. What seems less plausible is that Lawrencev2 was able to run through his routine when he spent the last 2-3 days being dragged around by the MiB. Unless that story only started running once William and Logen arrived there? Which is possible as I don't think there were other guests there.

[Fez]

Well, are we sure Lawrence is on the same loop as before? Or has his routine been changed for Ford's new narrative?