Stannis Baratheon Past, Pressent and Future

[Coolbeard the Exile]

Stannis Baratheon the First of His Name and King of Westeros is my favourite minor character and i feel like he isn't as well liked as i feel he deserves. I would like to discuss the  past, pressent and future of Stannis and explain to you guys why he is so great.

Past:

As a boy Stannis nursed a bird back to health and named him Proudwing but Robert called him Weakwing and Stannis great Uncle convinced him to abandon the bird and that he was making a fool of himself. Stannis was always in the shadow of his elder brother and what ever Stannis did Robert had done it better already.  When Stannis was 14 years he witnessed his parents dying outside Storm's End in a storm. The only person to ever care about him deeply seems to be Cressen besides his parents. When he held Storm's End he was an inch from starving to death and still he never conciderd surrendering as an option. Later he captured Dragonstone for Robert and Robert got angry at him for the Targaryen children escaping but Stannis couldn't have done anything about it. For his defence of Storm's End and his capture of Dragonstone Stannis got Dragonstone instead of the wealthier and happier Storm's End and he didn't seem to get any appreciation.  His own brother also disrespected him on his wedding day. His wife is also boring and ugly.

And people wonder why Stannis isn't the happiest man in Westeros? This dude dosn't seem to have recieved much love or appreciation in all his life. This dosn't make Stannis a flat undeveloped character as you can see what has shaped him to be the man he is today. I believe that his Renly's Peach speech is one of the most touching speeches in all of the books.

Here is a list of Stannis Baratheons achievments up to the present.

* Held Storm's End for near a year against the might of the Reach

* Rebuilt the Royal Fleet

* Captured Dragonstone

* Defeated the Iron Fleet in the greatest naval battle in the history of Westeros

* Subdued Great Wyk

* Suppressed smuggling from the Three Sisters

*  Almost took the well defended King's Landing and only lost due to crazy bad luck

*  Defeated the wildling army 30,000 strong with 1500 soldiers of his own

*  Captured Deepwood Motte

Present: 

Stannis is out in the snow in the crofter's village and he and his army is freezing and starving and the Boltons are coming to get him. But Stannis is the smartest and most experienced commander in Westeros. His plan is to lure the Boltons onto the ice so that they fall though the ice as his men have been drilling holes into the ice. Stannis dosn't know that Manderly is on his side and they are coming behind the Freys who are first. The Freys will charge Stannis and fall through the ice and in the confusion the Manderlys will charge them in the rear and slaughter them. Manderly will join Stannis and they will march on to Winterfell.

The Boltons have more than half of their soldiers back inside Winterfell so it looks impossible to capture. What you must consider though is that many of the soldiers inside Winterfell are Umber,  Dustin, Tallhart, Cerwyn, Hornwood and Locke and other Houses and they are very angry at the Boltons because they all had kin at the red wedding and Ramsay hasn't been treating "Arya" very well. Stannis will probably fake his own death and his troops will put on the Bolton vanguards uniforms. They will sneak into Winterfell and attack once inside. The non Bolton troops will 100 % defect to Stannis and it will be a quick massacre.

Future: 

Once Stannis has taken Winterfell Davos will probably have returned with Rickon and Stannis will reinstall House Stark as warden of the North. Stannis will now have united all the North and they will probaby very loyal to him because he avenged the Red Wedding and reinstalled the Starks as warden of the North. He will probably go to the Wall again to see wtf is going on. He will probably reinforce the Wall with troops and material. I believe he will go to White Harbour next to plan his next move. Aurane Waters will probably join him now with the royal fleet. I believe Justin Massey will return to Stannis with the 20,000 sellswords plus the ships needed.

Stannis will now have around 35,000 troops and 200 ships. Stannis will now have the greatest army and fleet in all of Westeros. Stannis will recapture Dragonstone so that he can get the dragonglass needed to defeat the Others. I than believe that it is well possible that Stannis will take King's Landing. I believe Stannis will intercept Danerys with his navy when returns to Westeros and it will probably end up like the battle of the waters of Gulltown. Stannis will defeat Danerys fleet but will later be fried by Danerys dragons as the house of the undying prophecy implies.

Do you think Stannis is the best as i do and how do you think his future looks like?

[estermonty python]

2 hours ago, BeastMaster64 said:

Stannis Baratheon the First of His Name and King of Westeros is my favourite minor character and i feel like he isn't as well liked as i feel he deserves. I would like to discuss the  past, pressent and future of Stannis and explain to you guys why he is so great.

Past:

As a boy Stannis nursed a bird back to health and named him Proudwing but Robert called him Weakwing and Stannis great Uncle convinced him to abandon the bird and that he was making a fool of himself. Stannis was always in the shadow of his elder brother and what ever Stannis did Robert had done it better already.  When Stannis was 14 years he witnessed his parents dying outside Storm's End in a storm. The only person to ever care about him deeply seems to be Cressen besides his parents. When he held Storm's End he was an inch from starving to death and still he never conciderd surrendering as an option. Later he captured Dragonstone for Robert and Robert got angry at him for the Targaryen children escaping but Stannis couldn't have done anything about it. For his defence of Storm's End and his capture of Dragonstone Stannis got Dragonstone instead of the wealthier and happier Storm's End and he didn't seem to get any appreciation.  His own brother also disrespected him on his wedding day. His wife is also boring and ugly.

And people wonder why Stannis isn't the happiest man in Westeros? This dude dosn't seem to have recieved much love or appreciation in all his life. This dosn't make Stannis a flat undeveloped character as you can see what has shaped him to be the man he is today. I believe that his Renly's Peach speech is one of the most touching speeches in all of the books.

Here is a list of Stannis Baratheons achievments up to the present.

* Held Storm's End for near a year against the might of the Reach

* Rebuilt the Royal Fleet

* Captured Dragonstone

* Defeated the Iron Fleet in the greatest naval battle in the history of Westeros

* Subdued Great Wyk

* Suppressed smuggling from the Three Sisters

*  Almost took the well defended King's Landing and only lost due to crazy bad luck

*  Defeated the wildling army 30,000 strong with 1500 soldiers of his own

*  Captured Deepwood Motte

Present: 

Stannis is out in the snow in the crofter's village and he and his army is freezing and starving and the Boltons are coming to get him. But Stannis is the smartest and most experienced commander in Westeros. His plan is to lure the Boltons onto the ice so that they fall though the ice as his men have been drilling holes into the ice. Stannis dosn't know that Manderly is on his side and they are coming behind the Freys who are first. The Freys will charge Stannis and fall through the ice and in the confusion the Manderlys will charge them in the rear and slaughter them. Manderly will join Stannis and they will march on to Winterfell.

The Boltons have more than half of their soldiers back inside Winterfell so it looks impossible to capture. What you must consider though is that many of the soldiers inside Winterfell are Umber,  Dustin, Tallhart, Cerwyn, Hornwood and Locke and other Houses and they are very angry at the Boltons because they all had kin at the red wedding and Ramsay hasn't been treating "Arya" very well. Stannis will probably fake his own death and his troops will put on the Bolton vanguards uniforms. They will sneak into Winterfell and attack once inside. The non Bolton troops will 100 % defect to Stannis and it will be a quick massacre.

Future: 

Once Stannis has taken Winterfell Davos will probably have returned with Rickon and Stannis will reinstall House Stark as warden of the North. Stannis will now have united all the North and they will probaby very loyal to him because he avenged the Red Wedding and reinstalled the Starks as warden of the North. He will probably go to the Wall again to see wtf is going on. He will probably reinforce the Wall with troops and material. I believe he will go to White Harbour next to plan his next move. Aurane Waters will probably join him now with the royal fleet. I believe Justin Massey will return to Stannis with the 20,000 sellswords plus the ships needed.

Stannis will now have around 35,000 troops and 200 ships. Stannis will now have the greatest army and fleet in all of Westeros. Stannis will recapture Dragonstone so that he can get the dragonglass needed to defeat the Others. I than believe that it is well possible that Stannis will take King's Landing. I believe Stannis will intercept Danerys with his navy when returns to Westeros and it will probably end up like the battle of the waters of Gulltown. Stannis will defeat Danerys fleet but will later be fried by Danerys dragons as the house of the undying prophecy implies.

Do you think Stannis is the best as i do and how do you think his future looks like?

Woah now - talk about reading with Stannis-colored glasses!

Here are some counterpoints:

Past:

You are taking Stannis at his word that he never received adequate love or appreciation.  One of Stannis's basic flaws is that he constantly feels slighted, but we only ever see Stannis in the company of lackeys and diplomats, never anyone with knowledge and reason to call him out on his bullshit.  For me the best example of his shortsightedness and perpetual victimhood, which you cite in your summary, was Robert's installation of Stannis at Dragonstone.  Stannis complains about not being given Storm's End, but Robert presumably installed Stannis at Dragonstone because it was the traditional seat for the heir of the Iron Throne (which, at that time, Stannis was).  Dragonstone is a greater honor than Storm's End - Robert clearly imagined that Stannis was needed to protect the royal line, while Renly would continue the Stormland line.  It was an honor and a paean to tradition, not a slight.

Present:

It's Frey forces, not Bolton forces, that are outside the castle walls with the Manderlys.  Roose would never send his own men out to die if he has others to send in their place - particularly others who are potentially problematic to his hold on power.  I'll buy Stannis and the Manderlys wiping out the Freys in the north, but I still don't realistically see how they take Winterfell, at least not without reinforcements from the Wildlings and the Vale.

Future

While there isn't any actual evidence that Aurane Waters will help Stannis, it is true that he fought for Stannis during the War of the 5 Kings, and, if Stannis were to legitimize him, he would become the heir and regent to House Velaryon, currently headed by his 6 year old half brother.  All that said, we know from TWOW that

Spoiler

Aurane has set himself up as a pirate king in the Stepstones,

so I'm not sure how likely it is that he's going to make it up north to join the fray.  The rest of your hypothesis is a whole lot of magical thinking, based on little to no textual support, and entirely ignores every other player in the game right now, particularly Aegon and the Golden Company.  

Good thread though - should prove a lively discussion!

[Canon Claude]

Regarding Stannis' future, I highly doubt he'll ever go south again. If I had to guess, then he'll liberate Winterfell, go back to the Wall, find that Mel has burned Shireen, kills her with his bare hands, and then goes north to fight the Night's King in a suicidal charge to redeem himself.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

2 hours ago, estermonty python said:

Woah now - talk about reading with Stannis-colored glasses!

Here are some counterpoints:

Past:

You are taking Stannis at his word that he never received adequate love or appreciation.  One of Stannis's basic flaws is that he constantly feels slighted, but we only ever see Stannis in the company of lackeys and diplomats, never anyone with knowledge and reason to call him out on his bullshit.  For me the best example of his shortsightedness and perpetual victimhood, which you cite in your summary, was Robert's installation of Stannis at Dragonstone.  Stannis complains about not being given Storm's End, but Robert presumably installed Stannis at Dragonstone because it was the traditional seat for the heir of the Iron Throne (which, at that time, Stannis was).  Dragonstone is a greater honor than Storm's End - Robert clearly imagined that Stannis was needed to protect the royal line, while Renly would continue the Stormland line.  It was an honor and a paean to tradition, not a slight.

Present:

It's Frey forces, not Bolton forces, that are outside the castle walls with the Manderlys.  Roose would never send his own men out to die if he has others to send in their place - particularly others who are potentially problematic to his hold on power.  I'll buy Stannis and the Manderlys wiping out the Freys in the north, but I still don't realistically see how they take Winterfell, at least not without reinforcements from the Wildlings and the Vale.

Future

While there isn't any actual evidence that Aurane Waters will help Stannis, it is true that he fought for Stannis during the War of the 5 Kings, and, if Stannis were to legitimize him, he would become the heir and regent to House Velaryon, currently headed by his 6 year old half brother.  All that said, we know from TWOW that

  Hide contents

Aurane has set himself up as a pirate king in the Stepstones,

so I'm not sure how likely it is that he's going to make it up north to join the fray.  The rest of your hypothesis is a whole lot of magical thinking, based on little to no textual support, and entirely ignores every other player in the game right now, particularly Aegon and the Golden Company.  

Good thread though - should prove a lively discussion!

Well i guess he takes everything a little bit to harshly i can't deny that.

I called Roose Boltons vanguard bolton forces because he is the boss of everyone on his side.

There is textual evidence of Aurane joining Stannis and that is the patchface prohpechy.

It seems that Stannis will be killed by Danerys based on the house of the undying prophecy.

[estermonty python]

1 hour ago, BeastMaster64 said:

Well i guess he takes everything a little bit to harshly i can't deny that.

I called Roose Boltons vanguard bolton forces because he is the boss of everyone on his side.

There is textual evidence of Aurane joining Stannis and that is the patchface prohpechy.

It seems that Stannis will be killed by Danerys based on the house of the undying prophecy.

If you're referring to riding seahorses with mermaids blowing seashells, 1) that's clever, kudos, but 2) wasn't that what Patchface said when he offered to lead the rescue mission to Hardhome?  I can't remember specifically, other than that it was a mission Jon was planning that everyone around him was skeptical about.  It definitely didn't have anything to do with taking the iron throne or going to King's Landing.

Which House of the Undying prophecy are you referring to?  The blue eyed king?  The dead guy on a ship?  I don't think I buy that either of those are Stannis, but even if they were, how do you make the leap from that to "fighting Daenerys"?

[theblackdragonI]

5 hours ago, BeastMaster64 said:

 

Yea I get where you're coming from and he is definitely one of the best written characters in the series. I think the reason that people don't tend to like him as much as other characters because he lacks charisma. Determined? Nobody more so. Great commander? The best. But he leaves much to be desired when it comes to actual charisma. I get that he's been through a lot but so did Robert, Ned, Robb, Jon and Daenerys and they inspire much fiercer loyalty in their troops. I always got the impression that a large number of Stannis vassals aren't really that fond of him, but serve because they're loyal. In that way I guess he's like Tywin? 

Anyway, I don't think he'll make it out of the North. If he goes south again he'll be smashed by Daenerys which sucks cause its Dany and hes fucking Stannis Baratheon! I have a feeling he'll meet an end that will be really sad and he'll probably say something about his family or how he was just doing his duty his whole life. 

7 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

If you're referring to riding seahorses with mermaids blowing seashells, 1) that's clever, kudos, but 2) wasn't that what Patchface said when he offered to lead the rescue mission to Hardhome?  I can't remember specifically, other than that it was a mission Jon was planning that everyone around him was skeptical about.  It definitely didn't have anything to do with taking the iron throne or going to King's Landing.

Which House of the Undying prophecy are you referring to?  The blue eyed king?  The dead guy on a ship?  I don't think I buy that either of those are Stannis, but even if they were, how do you make the leap from that to "fighting Daenerys"?

Yea I agree I'm not sure I'd count Patchface's ramblings as textual evidence. Or any prophecies for that matter. They're open to interpretation but shouldn't be relied upon too much.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

estermonthy python i don't remember where it is said but i think i remember a Danerys prophecy where she sets him on fire but i don't remeber which one.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

7 hours ago, BeastMaster64 said:

Stannis Baratheon the First of His Name and King of Westeros is my favourite minor character and i feel like he isn't as well liked as i feel he deserves. I would like to discuss the  past, pressent and future of Stannis and explain to you guys why he is so great.

Dude, the amount of Stanboys is through the roof. That also means we see a lot of backlash from people, often Renly supporters, who are arguing with these Stanboys which might hide the love for the Mannis that is definitely here.

 

7 hours ago, BeastMaster64 said:

Do you think Stannis is the best as i do and how do you think his future looks like?

I don't think Stannis is the best, and that is what makes him one of the most well-rounded characters in the story. A lot of Stannisfans (which I think includes you) seem to ignore his darker side, which I think does a disservice to the character GRRM crafted. As Stannis himself would say: "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good."

Sure, Stannis did all those awesome things you mentioned, but he also:

- Allowed a great number of people, including his wife's uncle, to be burned alive for believing in different gods

- Wanted to burn his nephew because he had 'Kingsblood'

- Killed his brother and ser Cortnay Penrose with dark magic

- Almost lost to Renly at Storm's End, instead gained an army to crazy good luck

- Didn't warn his king and brother about the Lannisters, instead was sulking on Dragonstone for a year hiring sellsword just in case...

- After being beaten on the Blackwater, once again was sulking on Dragonstone

This all combined with what you stated makes Stannis a great commander, a just man by nature, and someone who is patient. But he would also do anything to get his birthright, and he is petty, mopey and stubborn to a fault.

 

In the next books I don't see it ending well for Stannis, since he is almost doomed to fail. GRRM has stated that many people will sit the Iron Throne before the tale is through. I don't think Stannis is among those people. He will probably beat the Boltons, though even of that I am not sure (since often when a plan seems to come together, some force comes out of left field and changes the situation (Tyrells at Blackwater, Stannis at the Wall, Ironborn in Meereen). Maybe it's the Others in this case...). If he does win, he'll likely die at the Trident like in Dany's vision.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

He only killed traitors and cannibals in the books. 

He did try to kill Edric Storm and that is kinda sick.

He did kill Cortnay Penrose and Renly Baratheon with Shadow assasins but i can't really blame him. The throne is his by right and his brother and Cortnay didn't give a damn of the libe of succsecion. My favourite speech in the whole books btw is Renly's Peach check it out on youtube.

It wasn't crazy luck that he defeated Renly he knew what he was going to do and wouldn't have gone to battle with him unless he had the shadow assasin.

Since Robert seems to dislike Stannis Stannis can't be sure about how he will react so instead he wanted someone close to Robert like Jon Arryn or Eddard Stark to tell him.

Wouldn't call sulking on Dragonstone anything bad.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

1 hour ago, BeastMaster64 said:

He only killed traitors and cannibals in the books. 

And unbelievers, don't forget those. Like the Rambtons who were burned for defending the sept on Dragonstone. And in what category would you put Rattleshirt? He is an awful person, but he is neither a traitor or a cannibal.

1 hour ago, BeastMaster64 said:

He did try to kill Edric Storm and that is kinda sick.

He did kill Cortnay Penrose and Renly Baratheon with Shadow assasins but i can't really blame him. The throne is his by right and his brother and Cortnay didn't give a damn of the libe of succsecion. My favourite speech in the whole books btw is Renly's Peach check it out on youtube.

Don't forget that Renly declared himself king BEFORE Stannis did. Since he had been plotting against the Lannisters, he had no other choice when Robert died. By the time Stannis declared, Renly already had the support of the Reach and the Stormlands. Why risk losing it to make Stannis king at this point? Sure, it's not fair, but what ever is in this world?

Ser Cortnay cared for the life of Edric Storm and refused to surrender because of it (after supporting Renly first, I'll grant you). By this point it had nothing to do with succession. The negotiation with ser Cortnay is the best part of aCoK, IMO.

1 hour ago, BeastMaster64 said:

It wasn't crazy luck that he defeated Renly he knew what he was going to do and wouldn't have gone to battle with him unless he had the shadow assasin.

Sure, just like it wasn't crazy luck he was beaten on the Blackwater. He was just overwhelmed when the Tyrells arrived, which Tyrion had been plotting for for half of aCoK. Sure, he wouldn't know when or if they'd arrive, so the timing was kinda convenient, but it wasn't crazy luck.

1 hour ago, BeastMaster64 said:

Since Robert seems to dislike Stannis Stannis can't be sure about how he will react so instead he wanted someone close to Robert like Jon Arryn or Eddard Stark to tell him.

Wouldn't call sulking on Dragonstone anything bad.

Then why not help Ned like he tried with Jon Arryn? Face it, he cared more for his own life than that of his king. Granted, I would probably have done the same, but don't act like he wasn't letting his brother die and preparing for the occasion.

And I would call sulky a somewhat undesirable trait. Not a trait to be burned alive for to be sure, but not a good quality either.

 

Though you tried to refute my arguments, you didn't mention your stance on Stannis. As I stated, I think you are ignoring his bad side, but I cannot know if you don't tell me. I'd say his moral ambiguity is precisely what makes him one of the most interesting characters in the series. Sure, I'm a sucker for good guys like Brienne, Davos and Jon, but I find the more morally grey characters, like Jaime, Theon, and also Stannis, to be inherently more interesting.

[devilish]

Stannis is the classic noble second born, ie he’s programmed to understand orders and following them without any concern of whether they can be executed successfully.  His plan was pretty simple. He’s the rightful king therefore everyone will have to bend the knee to him and those who do not will be magically annihilated. He never asks whether that’s really feasible and by not doing so, he ruined the Baratheon chance of retaining the throne.

He’s no different to people like Bran who went hiking beyond the wall instead of rallying the troops to reclaim his lands, Trystane who foolishly thought that he could steal a dragon and fly triumphantly home with it or Oberyn who got himself killed by the Mountain instead of sitting tight and work in the shadows in a bid of ruining the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. 

If Stannis understood the bigger picture than the war would have been long over. There's absolutely no way, that the Lord Paramount of the smallest region in Westeros could win the iron throne by going solo. The alliance with the Tyrells was vital.

 

It a shame really. If Stannis negotiated with Renly then a Baratheon would probably be sitting on the iron throne, Stannis would probably be his hand and he'll be sitting comfortable as Lord of the Stormlands. 

[Greywater-Watch]

8 hours ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Didn't warn his king and brother about the Lannisters, instead was sulking on Dragonstone for a year hiring sellsword just in case...

 

37 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Then why not help Ned like he tried with Jon Arryn? 

I would like to underline the two comments above: Eddard Stark as Hand of the King wrote letters to Stannis on Dragonstone asking him to take contact, but received no answer.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

3 hours ago, BeastMaster64 said:

It wasn't crazy luck that he defeated Renly he knew what he was going to do and wouldn't have gone to battle with him unless he had the shadow assasin.

So, you're calling Stannis a liar and a hypocrite? (I concur, by the way). Because he maintains that he had nothing to do with Renly's death, and has no idea what happened to him.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

He wouldn't want it to be known that he assasinated him with a shadow assasin because he would likely loose all his support.

[Tini]

8 minutes ago, BeastMaster64 said:

He wouldn't want it to be known that he assasinated him with a shadow assasin because he would likely loose all his support.

Are you sure that he remembers the shadow assassin himself? I think he made himself forget. If he still remembers it,  he remembers it as a bad dream.

As for Stannis not realizing that he cannot win after Renly declared himself king, that he should have supported Renly: maybe Renly expected that - but if he did, he did not know his brother at all.

Stannis is all about duty, and about justice. He always does what he perceives as his duty, good or bad. And he expects others to do theirs. That sense of duty is what keeps him going when others give up.

He was the older brother, therefore it was Renly's duty to support his claim, not the other way around. When Renly betrayed him by declaring himself king, Stannis negotiated with Renly, and he even acknowledged Renly's claim - didn't he propose a marriage between Renly and Shireen? That would've made Renly Stannis' heir. Renly declined that alliance, he thought he didn't need it. He thought there was nothing his brother could do to stop him. Renly was wrong.

Robert and Renly had charisma. Stannis doesn't. But Robert was horrible at running his kingdom, and Renly didn't show much interest in running the day-to-day business, either. After all that's what a King's Hand is for, isn't it? Stannis would've made a good King's Hand - but that is something they despised him for.  

It's also the reason why people like Davos Seaworth follow him - not blindly, but with absolute loyalty. Stannis can be reasoned with. He listens to his advisors. And while there is Melisandre, there is Davos, too.

There doesn't seem to be much of a future left for him. In the unlikely event he lives long enough to meet Daenerys or Aegon, he might surprise all by bending the knee. Either because he thinks it his duty, or because he thinks it is better for the realm. 

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

So, you're calling Stannis a liar and a hypocrite? (I concur, by the way). Because he maintains that he had nothing to do with Renly's death, and has no idea what happened to him.

 

3 hours ago, BeastMaster64 said:

He wouldn't want it to be known that he assasinated him with a shadow assasin because he would likely loose all his support.

I think it's more that Stannis deep down knows he killed his brother, but can't deal with it and is therefore in denial. Like he said to Davos:

Quote

"And for Renly?" The words were out before Davos could stop to consider them.

For a long time the king did not speak. Then, very softly, he said, "I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly's dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood." Stannis looked down at his hands. "I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I trashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean."

Ser Davos Seaworth could feel his phantom fingertips start to itch. Something is wrong here, the onetime smuggler thought. Yet he nodded and said "I see." 

 This indicates to me that Stannis saw his hands were clean and explains it away as a dream, but really he doesn't feel like his hands are clean and he seems to have experienced Renly's death first hand.

[estermonty python]

5 hours ago, devilish said:

 

Stannis is the classic noble second born, ie he’s programmed to understand orders and following them without any concern of whether they can be executed successfully.

 

Oh hey worms, I didn't think I was going to see you until @devilish opened the can you were in!

 

So I disagree with this.  Ironically the 2 examples that would support your argument re: dutiful second sons would be Ned and Victarion.  In fact, I actually do think GRRM has a fascination with Second Sons (and not only because of the sellsword company), probably because it subverts the fantasy trope of the oldest son and heir continuing the father's legacy, etc.  Broadly speaking, oldest sons are also less interesting, as they tend to feel more pressure and obligation to color within the lines, obey daddy, and continue the family traditions, while second sons tend to be more free to go their own way.  In fact, one of the reasons I buy into Tyrion being Aerys's son and Jon being Rhaegar's is that they would fit into this list i've been building of notable "second sons" in the story:

Ned Stark 

Bran Stark

Tyrion Lannister (second son of Aerys)

Jaime Lannister (if you consider him second to Cersei)

Jon Snow (second son of Rhaegar)

Victarion Greyjoy

Stannis Baratheon

Oberyn Martell

Quentyn Martell (if you consider him second in line, since Arianne would be first by Dornish law)

Ramsay Snow

Black Walder Frey

Emmon Frey

 

Cutting against my argument that the second sons are basically always important and interesting characters are Garlan Tyrell, Kevan Lannister, and Tommen.  Those three do at least prove crucial to the plot, however.  

 

WIthout getting too deep into the weeds, I think its inaccurate to say that all second sons in the story have any particularly unifying character trait; if anything, their status as second sons gives them the societal freedom to embrace their fundamental nature.  Some prioritize honor (Ned), some prioritize duty (Victarion, I guess), but it would not really be accurate to say that they all simply follow orders.  What you may have been trying to suggest is that all are motivated on some level by a desire to gain their father's affection - which is probably true.

All that said, Stannis is who he is - an iron-willed military commander who is (or at least was) a fundamentally decent human who is becoming increasingly corrupted by his pursuit of power.  His rationalizations and mental gymnastics become more and more unbelievable, and his crimes more and more heinous, that at some point I imagine he will become irredeemable - if he isn't there already.  Kind of like a reverse Jaime.  That alone makes him one of the most compelling characters - certainly the most compelling character that lacks a POV.

[StarkofWinterfell]

What happened to that @Knight of valor person?

[devilish]

1 hour ago, estermonty python said:

Oh hey worms, I didn't think I was going to see you until @devilish opened the can you were in!

 

So I disagree with this.  Ironically the 2 examples that would support your argument re: dutiful second sons would be Ned and Victarion.  In fact, I actually do think GRRM has a fascination with Second Sons (and not only because of the sellsword company), probably because it subverts the fantasy trope of the oldest son and heir continuing the father's legacy, etc.  Broadly speaking, oldest sons are also less interesting, as they tend to feel more pressure and obligation to color within the lines, obey daddy, and continue the family traditions, while second sons tend to be more free to go their own way.  In fact, one of the reasons I buy into Tyrion being Aerys's son and Jon being Rhaegar's is that they would fit into this list i've been building of notable "second sons" in the story:

Ned Stark 

Bran Stark

Tyrion Lannister (second son of Aerys)

Jaime Lannister (if you consider him second to Cersei)

Jon Snow (second son of Rhaegar)

Victarion Greyjoy

Stannis Baratheon

Oberyn Martell

Quentyn Martell (if you consider him second in line, since Arianne would be first by Dornish law)

Ramsay Snow

Black Walder Frey

Emmon Frey

 

Cutting against my argument that the second sons are basically always important and interesting characters are Garlan Tyrell, Kevan Lannister, and Tommen.  Those three do at least prove crucial to the plot, however.  

 

WIthout getting too deep into the weeds, I think its inaccurate to say that all second sons in the story have any particularly unifying character trait; if anything, their status as second sons gives them the societal freedom to embrace their fundamental nature.  Some prioritize honor (Ned), some prioritize duty (Victarion, I guess), but it would not really be accurate to say that they all simply follow orders.  What you may have been trying to suggest is that all are motivated on some level by a desire to gain their father's affection - which is probably true.

All that said, Stannis is who he is - an iron-willed military commander who is (or at least was) a fundamentally decent human who is becoming increasingly corrupted by his pursuit of power.  His rationalizations and mental gymnastics become more and more unbelievable, and his crimes more and more heinous, that at some point I imagine he will become irredeemable - if he isn't there already.  Kind of like a reverse Jaime.  That alone makes him one of the most compelling characters - certainly the most compelling character that lacks a POV.

 

 I never said that the TYPICAL second sons are boring. Actually I think they are more interesting as they are brought up not to care too much about the burden of power (they probably have little to none) and the consequences of their actions (which will be minimal). Their views are less structured than that of a first born because their actions tend not to have as much of an impact as those of a first born. 

We've seen that time and time again, from Brynden showing the middle finger to his brother by refusing to marry the Redywne girl (+ berating his own nephew in front of people) to Eddard (marching to Cersei to spill the beans that caused this entire mess up to start). From Oberyn (who marched to his death against the Mountain instead of working into the shadows to cripple the Tyrell-Lannister alliance) right to Stannis (who marched his pathetic 5k army against Renly's 100k army) right to Quentyn (he died trying to tame a dragon), Sandor (who went rogue) and Bran (he abandoned the North to the Boltons to follow a dream) 

Also Tyrion is Tywin's son. Cersei would be considered as breeding stock (a woman in a typical medieval setup), 

[estermonty python]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Actually I think they are more interesting as they are brought up not to care too much about the burden of power (they probably have little to none) and the consequences of their actions (which will be minimal). Their views are less structured than that of a first born because their actions tend not to have as much of an impact as those of a first born. 

Agree 100%

 

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Also Tyrion is Tywin's son

Time will tell!