The Stark family. Not you Robb.

[The Fattest Leech]

11 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

As far as I can tell, the only Eddard (Stark or otherwise) who has been mentioned in any of the books (including Dunk and Egg, The World of Ice and Fire, etc) is our Eddard Stark.

There is(was) an Eddard Karstark in the books. That one goes by Edd. So we do have Eddard referenced as a northern name and in semi-relation to the Starks.

Now, this Eddard was bannerman to Robb and was killed in battle when Robb went too far south from the north and tried to make a ruling decision... which got him killed. This is part of the main idea to this thread, and the more info brought forward, the more it seems quite plausible.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

48 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There is(was) an Eddard Karstark in the books. That one goes by Edd. So we do have Eddard referenced as a northern name and in semi-relation to the Starks.

Now, this Eddard was bannerman to Robb and was killed in battle when Robb went too far south from the north and tried to make a ruling decision... which got him killed. This is part of the main idea to this thread, and the more info brought forward, the more it seems quite plausible.

Yeah, but he's younger than Ned. He could've been named after him.

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Yeah, but he's younger than Ned. He could've been named after him.

True, and probably was, to which I agree. But I think the main post idea is that Robb was given a not-North name and it was a subtle foreshadowing of his early death and that it will take someone, another Stark kid , who has a stronger northern identity (name) to bring the north back together.

[devilish]

10 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

The idea that Jon Arryn would turn on a man he had already refused to kill once strikes me as false. I think, at best, he'd sit out the war, or try to lead negotiations. But since he'd already sworn himself to Robert post-Trident, he might have even turned on the North. Hoster would likely side with Brandon, I agree. Stannis had not married Selyse by this point (that was well post-war), so that wouldn't factor into the Tyrells' decision. They'd already surrended and accepted Robert as King by the time Ned found Jon, so while they might side with the baby with near-impossible-to-prove Targaryen heritage who may or may not be a bastard I'd hardly say it was a sure deal. Dorne had already lost 10000 men, but might side with the North if pushed. Doubtful, but possible. Neither the Reach or Dorne declared for Viserys and he had unquestionable heritage and wasn't born of the woman who Rhaegar humiliated Elia for.

So we've got another civil war with half of the men who fought alongside and later declared for Robert turning on him, including (potentially) his best friend and father figure. Yeah, I think this is exactly the kind of thing that Ned was trying to avoid. Maybe he didn't want to risk his nephew's brains bloodying some knights gauntlets, and maybe he didn't want to betray his best friend and perhaps need to have him killed. And maybe Lyanna made him promise not to.

Yeah, Brandon in charge sounds a lot better.

He won’t turn against a man he refused to kill (PS Eddard was among the ones he saved too).His first reaction would be to mediate between the two. However if Robert insist in killing the boy then he’ll be under increased pressure to act. The Vale Lords are quite proud of their honour. They were the first to rebel against the king and they did so, on an argument, that didn’t concern them (Ned and Robert weren’t from the Vale) because killing innocent people is wrong. It will be very hard for Jon who shares his bed with a Tully, to sit out of that war, knowing that his father in law’s lands will be hammered, that an innocent boy who named to him is going to be smashed to the wall.

The Tyrells may have surrendered, but they are loyalists. They also spent most of the war trying to starve the King’s two brothers to death at the Stormlands. That’s a matter of concern. Seriously, irrespective of which alliance they would do, I can see them sit out for most of the war. That’s what the Tyrells do. They would raise their horde only to spend most of the war targeting meaningless soft targets like sieging an empty fortress or playing knights at the Stormlands. It makes sense really. Let the others rip each other apart which would make Mace’s 70k army more precious to have at your side, which in turn increase leverage for the Tyrells. Good luck for Robert in convincing the Tyrells to march their army up North. It is pretty cold out there, the people aren’t very sophisticated, the food is scarce and the Northerners have that ‘Dornish’ spirit of revenge and refusal to bend the knee to anyone who is not one of them.  I doubt Mace would want to risk encountering the same fate of Harlen Tyrell, especially since there’s little for his family to gain out of this. Eddard has two kids new born Margaery can marry (including a potential king). What does Rob has to offer?

Ned was trying to avoid a civil war, a war which he might have had the upper hand upon (Robert may have had the Stormlands and the Lannisters but those won’t be enough to beat the Tullys and the North, especially if the Vale or/and the golden company decide to show up) but whose result was hugely unpredictable and most important he was unwilling to fight. We've seen that during the war of 5 kings. Who would have expected the Martells to sit on their one in a million chance of getting their revenge against the Lannisters? Who would have expected that Stannis would march his 5k army against Renly’s horde and come out triumphantly? Who would expect Viserys to be laughed at by the Golden Company and then end up being killed by his brother in law? Who would expect Balon to totally ignore a decent plan of attack and stupidly attack the only house who cared to truly negotiate with him? Who would expect that one of the Northern houses would betray Robb, that Theon would betray the Starks and that Robb would die in a wedding?

Also Ned had another issue to consider. What would happen if Robert is soundly beaten? Who will rule? Will he spend most of his life in KL as Lord Protector? The man had seen his life turning upside down in few years. In an instant he turned from a dutiful second son whose role was to represent the Starks at the Vale to the Lord Paramount of the North, a rebel and a husband of his own brother’s fiancée.  I doubt he would want added responsibility

So to summarise everything. Ned did what he did because

a- he loved Robert
b- he hated the idea of going to war again
c- he hated the idea of him becoming Lord Protector of the realm

He might have kept his conscience in check by saying that he did it for Jon. However deep down he knew that its not entirely true. Jon Targ would have been relatively safe in Winterfell, Ned was in a decent position to win his inheritance for him + he could have easily spared him his wife's hostility which ultimately forced him to the wall and to his death

 

[devilish]

9 hours ago, Makk said:

Surely you can see why Ned would want to avoid this conflict even if he thought he could resist the South. He knew Robert hated the Targaryens and would be extremely unpredictable. It might not be armies but could be a blade or poison. It just makes no sense to get into that when it can be avoided.

I cant see Robert poisoning or sending assassins to kill the wolf pup. That would make him look devious and weak. Lord Eddard was his inferior. He would have to handle Jon to his king. If he refuses, then that would be considered as an act of rebellion

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

I cant see Robert poisoning or sending assassins to kill the wolf pup. That would make him look devious and weak. Lord Eddard was his inferior. He would have to handle Jon to his king. If he refuses, then that would be considered as an act of rebellion

Yeah, cos Robert is totally above sending assassins to murder children *cough* Daenerys *cough*

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

He might have kept his conscience in check by saying that he did it for Jon. However deep down he knew that its not entirely true. Jon Targ would have been relatively safe in Winterfell, Ned was in a decent position to win his inheritance for him + he could have easily spared him his wife's hostility which ultimately forced him to the wall and to his death

Well, there's also Lyanna's promise, which I'm guessing contained a 'protect my son' clause. Declaring war in Jon's name hardly sounds like a good way to do that. And I think you're overstating the tragedy of Jon's situation just a tad. Yes, he grew up a bastard. He also grew up safe, happy and loved. Nor was he forced to join the NW. He chose that life. A life that Ned's own brother chose. I'm not sure Jon's parent issues are worth a civil war. Nor do I think Ned's primary motives were selfish ones. 

[devilish]

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

Yeah, cos Robert is totally above sending assassins to murder children *cough* Daenerys *cough*

He sent assassins to Essos not within his own kingdom. 

[devilish]

5 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Well, there's also Lyanna's promise, which I'm guessing contained a 'protect my son' clause. Declaring war in Jon's name hardly sounds like a good way to do that. And I think you're overstating the tragedy of Jon's situation just a tad. Yes, he grew up a bastard. He also grew up safe, happy and loved. Nor was he forced to join the NW. He chose that life. A life that Ned's own brother chose. I'm not sure Jon's parent issues are worth a civil war. Nor do I think Ned's primary motives were selfish ones. 

He grew so happy, safe and loved that he wanted to end it all by serving the night's watch. Seriously, the boy is the result of a loving affair between the crown prince and the lady of one of the strongest houses in Westeros. Instead he was made to believe that he's the result of some occasional flirt between Eddard and some wrench. The boy was despised by the Lady of the house and he was looked down by everybody. He grew up knowing nothing about his origins, whom his mother was and why there's so much mystery around him. That's not nice isn't it?

 

 

[WSmith84]

56 minutes ago, devilish said:

He grew so happy, safe and loved that he wanted to end it all by serving the night's watch. Seriously, the boy is the result of a loving affair between the crown prince and the lady of one of the strongest houses in Westeros. Instead he was made to believe that he's the result of some occasional flirt between Eddard and some wrench. The boy was despised by the Lady of the house and he was looked down by everybody. He grew up knowing nothing about his origins, whom his mother was and why there's so much mystery around him. That's not nice isn't it?

Wanted to end it all? Really? No, he made a decision about what to do with his adult life, as many are forced to in Westeros. No, being looked down on by Cat wasn't nice, but everyone else at Winterfell seems to have treated Jon as basically a Stark. He had the same education as Robb, the same training and had a great relationship with his siblings. Overall, Jon had it pretty great. Better than 99.9% of people and better than 99.9% of actual bastards too.

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

He sent assassins to Essos not within his own kingdom. 

What difference does that make? 

[devilish]

31 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Wanted to end it all? Really? No, he made a decision about what to do with his adult life, as many are forced to in Westeros. No, being looked down on by Cat wasn't nice, but everyone else at Winterfell seems to have treated Jon as basically a Stark. He had the same education as Robb, the same training and had a great relationship with his siblings. Overall, Jon had it pretty great. Better than 99.9% of people and better than 99.9% of actual bastards too.

The NW was one of Jon’s better options. Sure he lived in luxury at Winterfell and the Lady of the House was kept in check. However what guarantees did he had that once Ned die, Jon will be able to retain that’s standard of living? He was a bastard, with no money or titles of his own. Cat hated him and she was also one of the strongest women in all Westeros. The Tully wench shared blood ties with the future queen and 3 future Lord Paramount (Robb, Edmure and Sweet Robin).  Her daughter’s husband happened to share blood ties with 2 other Lord Paramount (Lannister and Baratheon) while Theon wasn’t exactly fond of Jon Snow either. If Ned died and Cat turned nasty, then Jon needed a safe place where nobility had little to no influence upon. The wall was one of those places.

Whether Ned should have fought for Jon’s birthright is debatable at best. I still think that Ned would have had the upper hand especially if Robert decides to let his ‘FURY’ take over his better judgement. However as said, wars can be unpredictable. However you must also agree that he hardly worked his arse off to give the boy a future either. Jon was never legitimized, he wasn’t being trained to knighthood and Ned had never spared 1 good word to have the boy employed in the KG, as a maester or as someone else knight either. I am sure that if Ned wanted, the boy could have found a much better off than freezing his arse off at the wall while surrounded by criminals

[devilish]

30 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

What difference does that make? 

It makes alot of difference. Essos was not King Robert's domain. Unless he planned for a full scale invasion, he had no options but to send an assassin. In Westeros Robert is king. If he sends assassins to kill an innocent boy behind the Lord Paramount's back then there's a casus belli for a revolt

[WSmith84]

45 minutes ago, devilish said:

The NW was one of Jon’s better options. Sure he lived in luxury at Winterfell and the Lady of the House was kept in check. However what guarantees did he had that once Ned die, Jon will be able to retain that’s standard of living? He was a bastard, with no money or titles of his own. Cat hated him and she was also one of the strongest women in all Westeros. The Tully wench shared blood ties with the future queen and 3 future Lord Paramount (Robb, Edmure and Sweet Robin).  Her daughter’s husband happened to share blood ties with 2 other Lord Paramount (Lannister and Baratheon) while Theon wasn’t exactly fond of Jon Snow either. If Ned died and Cat turned nasty, then Jon needed a safe place where nobility had little to no influence upon. The wall was one of those places.

Whether Ned should have fought for Jon’s birthright is debatable at best. I still think that Ned would have had the upper hand especially if Robert decides to let his ‘FURY’ take over his better judgement. However as said, wars can be unpredictable. However you must also agree that he hardly worked his arse off to give the boy a future either. Jon was never legitimized, he wasn’t being trained to knighthood and Ned had never spared 1 good word to have the boy employed in the KG, as a maester or as someone else knight either. I am sure that if Ned wanted, the boy could have found a much better off than freezing his arse off at the wall while surrounded by criminals

Well, Robb would be lord after Ned. Or Bran. Or Rickon. Jon had a great relationship with them. They wouldn't send Jon away, especially not because Cat wants it. 

I agree that Ned didn't have much planned out for Jon. But he didn't have much planned for any of his children. He trained Robb to be the next lord and that's about it. No marriages, no squiring, nothing. Personally, I think Ned was planning to make Jon one of the new lords on the New Gift, should the NW agree to it. 

Finally, the Starks don't see the Wall in the same way the rest of Westeros does. They view it as an honourable occupation; Ned's own brother joined willingly. Ned probably viewed the NW as a fine way to live one's life.

edit: your next reply should probably be the last. We've dragged this thread way off topic.

[devilish]

Just now, WSmith84 said:

Well, Robb would be lord after Ned. Or Bran. Or Rickon. Jon had a great relationship with them. They wouldn't send Jon away, especially not because Cat wants it. 

I agree that Ned didn't have much planned out for Jon. But he didn't have much planned for any of his children. He trained Robb to be the next lord and that's about it. No marriages, no squiring, nothing. Personally, I think Ned was planning to make Jon one of the new lords on the New Gift, should the NW agree to it. 

Finally, the Starks don't see the Wall in the same way the rest of Westeros does. They view it as an honourable occupation; Ned's own brother joined willingly. Ned probably viewed the NW as a fine way to live one's life.

Cat was their mother and she would have had a great influence over them. She's also a bit of a free spirit herself and she doesn't seem to mind taking action against something or someone irrespective of consequences (Tyrion's arrest or freeing Jamie). No wonder Jon's itch of leaving seem to concede at a time when Ned was also leaving Winterfell. I can't blame the boy for not wanting to live with the Lady of the house especially since she won't be guarded by her husband anymore. 

I am aware that the Northern lords have a soft spot toward the NW but things were getting rougher up there. More and more criminals were joining the wall. most of whom, were dragged there after their Lord decided that they were scum. It may have been nice to be NW during Benjen's time but it wasn't the same during Jon Snow's time

 

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Cat was their mother and she would have had a great influence over them. She's also a bit of a free spirit herself and she doesn't seem to mind taking action against something or someone irrespective of consequences (Tyrion's arrest or freeing Jamie). No wonder Jon's itch of leaving seem to concede at a time when Ned was also leaving Winterfell. I can't blame the boy for not wanting to live with the Lady of the house especially since she won't be guarded by her husband anymore. 

I am aware that the Northern lords have a soft spot toward the NW but things were getting rougher up there. More and more criminals were joining the wall. most of whom, were dragged there after their Lord decided that they were scum. It may have been nice to be NW during Benjen's time but it wasn't the same during Jon Snow's time

Well, I disagree, but I think we should leave our discussion here. Like I said in the edit of my last post, we've dragged this way off-topic.

Nice chatting with you.