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talvikorppi

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

Back in 2004 GRRM mailed Linda and I (this was very shortly after my meeting him in Santa Fe) and noted he was planning to explicitly place them on opposite sides of the Red Fork.

The first map to note the location of Raventree, IIRC, was actually the early HBO map for GoT. We never really established if that was based on info George gave them or not -- I had been asked by HBO about where Raventree was located and gave them speculation based on the facts we knew (including GRRM's 2004 statement) but we never figured out whether HBO went on to confirm with GRRM or not.

But since then RH has published maps with Raventree noted and have used that location as well, and the Lands of Ice and Fire maps were indeed looked at by George so presumably he had no objection. OTOH, there's lots of detail in maps, and maybe he missed it if it was being placed erroneously.

In any case, opposite sides of the river was what GRRM intended way back when, I suppose, he was writing those Jaime chapters that eventually ended up in ADwD. How far apart I can't say with absolute certainty, though. The HBO location seems a bit too far off in my mind, but if they got it from George, that's what he intends.

Do you know who told HBO that the Ruby Ford was on the Green Fork?

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16 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

However, something I found in the books has changed my opinion a little. It is stated that during the Lannister invasion of the Riverlands, the castle was taken by Lannister men because Tytos was at Riverrun with all of his men and we know that, except for small groups, the Lannister's never pushed north of the Red Fork. Stone Hedge was also taken along with Darry and several other castles south of the RF.  

 

9 hours ago, Ran said:

In any case, opposite sides of the river was what GRRM intended way back when, I suppose, he was writing those Jaime chapters that eventually ended up in ADwD. How far apart I can't say with absolute certainty, though. The HBO location seems a bit too far off in my mind, but if they got it from George, that's what he intends.

@Ran I think GRRM's own material betrays that idea.     @Adam Yozza Yep! Here's from AGoT:

Robb updates Cat on the situation of the Riverlands

Quote

The last word we had was that Lord Piper was falling back to join your brother and his other bannermen at Riverrun, with Jaime
Lannister on his heels. That’s not the worst of it, though. All the time they were battling in the pass, Lord Tywin was bringing a second Lannister army around from the south. It’s said to be even larger than Jaime’s host.

[...]

Lord Derik [Beric] had no sooner crossed the Red Fork than the Lannisters fell upon him, the king’s banner be damned, and Gregor Clegane took them in the rear as they tried to pull back across the Mummer’s Ford. [...] [Lord Tywin]'s marching north toward Harrenhal, burning as he goes.”

AGoT Chapter 55, Catelyn VIII

So, Jaime smashes the RL army posted at the Golden Tooth and makes for Riverrun where he again smashes the RL army. Meanwhile, Tywin leads another host that marches from the south. He never marches north past Riverrun while on the left bank of the Red Fork, but rather crosses it at the Mummer's Ford and pushes north (actually, northeast) toward Harrenhal.

In the very next chapter, Tyrion reaches his father's camp and sits at war council with him and uncle Kevan:

Quote

“Your brother has been covering himself with glory,” [Lord Tywin] said. “He smashed the Lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth, and met the massed power of the Tullys under the walls of Riverrun. The lords of the Trident have been put to rout. Ser Edmure Tully was taken captive, with many of his knights and bannermen. Lord Blackwood led a few survivors back to Riverrun, where Jaime has them under siege. The rest fled to their own strongholds.”
“Your father and I have been marching on each in turn,” Ser Kevan said. “With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it. Ser Gregor burnt out the Pipers and the Brackens...”
“Leaving you unopposed?” Tyrion said.
“Not wholly,” Ser Kevan said. “The Mallisters still hold Seagard and Walder Frey is marshaling his levies at the Twins.”

AGoT Chapter 56, Tyrion VII

Tywin and Kevan confirm what Robb had told Cat. Lord Blackwood is at Riverrun under siege and Tywin's host takes Raventree Hall taking advantage of its lord's absence. Then the host moves further east to block the Kingsroad to Robb's host, taking Harrenhal in the process.

Notice that Seagard hasn't fall because the Lannisters haven't troubled with the left bank of the Red Fork. If Raventree Hall was at that side of the river, after taking it they would have needed to retrace their steps and cross the river at the Mummer's Ford so they could come from the south and that would've taken weeks.

FWIW, this is the map of the early stages of the RL by the Westermen. Notice how Tywin makes his way east-by-northeast toward Harrenhal and then to the Crossroads Inn. At no point does he move on the left bank of the Red Fork.

5 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Do you know who told HBO that the Ruby Ford was on the Green Fork?

Robb tells his mother this at Moat Cailin

Quote

“There’s no crossing on the Green Fork above the ruby ford, where Robert won his crown. [...]"

AGoT Chapter 55, Catelyn VIII

 

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I disagree that the text suggests a discrepancy. As you yourself note, Raventree's fall is predicated on Tytos having been away with most of his troops, while it seems that that was not the case with Jason Mallister and Seagard. That may be the sole reason that Seagard was left unmolested, or rather the sole reason Raventree fell: it was a target of opportunity. 

If Raventree is north of the river, as GRRM appears to have intended, then that map needs some fixing (although there is no reason to think that Tywin took the whole or even the best part of his army to take a seriously under-defended castle; they might as easily have dispatched a detachment under Marbrand to seize it with a small force, much as Clegane would lead small forces to take riverlands castles for Tywin)

 

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17 minutes ago, Ran said:

I disagree that the text suggests a discrepancy. As you yourself note, Raventree's fall is predicated on Tytos having been away with most of his troops, while it seems that that was not the case with Jason Mallister and Seagard. That may be the sole reason that Seagard was left unmolested, or rather the sole reason Raventree fell: it was a target of opportunity. 

If Raventree is north of the river, as GRRM appears to have intended, then that map needs some fixing (although there is no reason to think that Tywin took the whole or even the best part of his army to take a seriously under-defended castle; they might as easily have dispatched a detachment under Marbrand to seize it with a small force, much as Clegane would lead small forces to take riverlands castles for Tywin)

 

Addam Marbrand was leading Tywin's scouts and reports that Robb's host is heading south the causeway

Quote

“Ser Addam Marbrand commands their outriders, and he’s pulling back south, burning as he goes. He knows where we are, more or less, but the Blackfish vows he will not know when we split.”

AGoT Chapter 59, Catelyn IX

At this point they still haven't crossed the Green Fork by the Twins, which means that Marbrand and his outriders are on the left bank of the Green Fork, by the Kingsroad.

Kevan explicitly mentions Clegane 's moves (the Pipers and the Brackens). Why would he fail to mention someone else's actions if he is giving credit where it is due? On the contrary, he says that they (Tywin's host) had been falling on "each of them [the lords who fled from Riverrun to their strongholds] in turn" and without pause he says that Raventree fell and then Harrenhal surrendered, implying that it was Tywin who took them.

Before the battle of the Whispering Woods, Cat remembers the plan to lure Jaime to the trap

Quote

“Jaime does not know,” Ser Brynden said when he rode back. “I’ll stake my life on that. No bird has reached him, my archers have seen to that. We’ve seen a few of his outriders, but those that saw us did not live to tell of it. He ought to have sent out more. He does not know.”

[...]

“[Jaime] is no man for sitting in a tent while his carpenters build siege towers,” Ser Brynden had promised. “He has ridden out with his knights thrice already, to chase down raiders or storm a stubborn holdfast.”

AGoT Chapter 63, Catelyn X

After crossing the Twins, Robb's cavalry links with Seagard's forces and some survivors from Riverrun. The Blackfish's scouts have only seen a few Lannister outriders. It would stand to reason that if Raventree Hall was at this side of the Red Fork, they would've mentioned that they need to stealth around it, but no mention of the danger of a Raventree occupied by Lannisters on this side of the river that could blow their unnoticed approach.

It has fallen to Jaime (mostly because he's bored, not because there's real danger) the task to ride from the siege's camp to harry this side of the river. No help from Tywin. No mention of a detachment from Tywin's host to take Raventree Hall on this side of the Red Fork.

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1 hour ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Robb tells his mother this at Moat Cailin

I'm familiar with the quote. The LoIaF maps in the app place it after the three forks converge into one. I used to think it was on the Green Fork, until someone suggested otherwise and I did some research, and then discussed it with @Rhaenys_Targaryen. I'd still like to hear from @Ran on this.

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Robert won his crown near the Ruby Ford, and according to AGOT, that's near the Inn at the Crossroads.

“I’m not,” Arya said, trying to brush a tangle out of Nymeria’s matted grey fur. “Mycah and I are going to ride upstream and look for rubies at the ford.”
“Rubies,” Sansa said, lost. “What rubies?”
Arya gave her a look like she was so stupid. “Rhaegar’s rubies. This is where King Robert killed him and won the crown.”

[...]

And so they left her direwolf and his bodyguard behind them, while they ranged east along the north bank of the Trident with no company save Lion’s Tooth.

[...]

“Soon,” Joffrey said. “The battleground is right up ahead, where the river bends. That was where my father killed Rhaegar Targaryen, you know. He smashed in his chest, crunch, right through the armor.”

Additionally, this chapter tells us that the ruby ford is located east of the inn.

When Catelyn later visits that inn, she thinks to herself:

North of here the kingsroad ran along the Green Fork of the Trident, through fertile valleys and green woodlands, past thriving towns and stout holdfasts and the castles of the river lords.

Which is compatible with what Robb says to her later on:

There’s no crossing on the Green Fork above the ruby ford, where Robert won his crown.

The inn is located at a position where all three forks of the Trident have already merged together. This map of the south from AGOT (which is repeated in ACOK, ASOS and AFFC, albeit every now and then with more markings on them) shows clearly where the two roads cross, as does this newer map from ADWD. The Westeros map from The Lands of Ice and Fire, also available in the app, shows the same thing, as well emphasizes clearly the location of the inn by displaying it specifically on the map.

When Tyrion arrives at Tywin's camp, having travelled from the Vale, he arrives back at the Inn at the Crossroads from where he had been kidnapped, and upon being recognized, his journey to his father is described as

The captain was quick to appear, and even quicker to give them an escort when he recognized his lord’s son. They trotted past blackened fields and burned holdfasts, down to the riverlands and the Green Fork of the Trident. Tyrion saw no bodies, but the air was full of ravens and carrion crows; there had been fighting here, and recently.
Half a league from the crossroads, a barricade of sharpened.

So while Tyrion travels from the Vale's direction towards the Inn at the Crossroads (located west of the ruby ford, as per the Sansa quote), it is described as trotting down towards the Green Fork, indicating how nearby they are to the split of the river.

So the maps show us that the inn is very close to the location where the Trident splits into its three forks, and subsequently the ruby ford is nearby that split as well. What the Robb quote tells us is that, between that split and the Twins, you cannot cross the Green Fork (curious, as it is quite a long piece of river, but OK), and (at least I take it to mean this) that you cannot cross the Trident between the ruby ford and the split either.

"I'd leave a small force here to hold Moat Cailin, archers mostly, and march the rest down the causeway," he said, "but once we're below the Neck, I'd split our host in two. The foot can continue down the kingsroad, while our horsemen cross the Green Fork at the Twins." He pointed. "When Lord Tywin gets word that we've come south, he'll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun." Robb sat back, not quite daring to smile, but pleased with himself and hungry for her praise.

Robb's idea is to get Tywin, who he knows is marching north towards Harrenhal at that moment, to make the crossing near the Ruby Ford, and march north, alongside the Green Fork. His plan depends on the fact that, once Tywin has made that crossing, at no point during his march, he can cross the Green Fork to come to Jaime's aid.

There’s no crossing on the Green Fork above the ruby ford, where Robert won his crown.

Tywin has to cross at the ruby ford, if he wants to continue via the Kingsroad. So Robb makes certain that he does by convincing Tywin that his entire army is marching south on the Kingsroad.

Thus, the way I interpret this, and I think what the text supports, is that Robb isn't saying here that the ruby ford is located on the Green Fork. But that the last possibility to cross is at the ruby ford, and that nowhere on the Green Fork until the Twins, Tywin has the ability to cross. The Green Fork is located "above the ruby ford", or in other words, north of the ruby ford. But he is not saying that the ruby ford is located on the Green Fork, and everything else that we do have, makes it clear that the ruby ford is located on the Trident, after the three Forks have merged.

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1 hour ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Addam Marbrand was leading Tywin's scouts and reports that Robb's host is heading south the causeway

At this point they still haven't crossed the Green Fork by the Twins, which means that Marbrand and his outriders are on the left bank of the Green Fork, by the Kingsroad.

Kevan explicitly mentions Clegane 's moves (the Pipers and the Brackens). Why would he fail to mention someone else's actions if he is giving credit where it is due? On the contrary, he says that they (Tywin's host) had been falling on "each of them [the lords who fled from Riverrun to their strongholds] in turn" and without pause he says that Raventree fell and then Harrenhal surrendered, implying that it was Tywin who took them.

Before the battle of the Whispering Woods, Cat remembers the plan to lure Jaime to the trap

After crossing the Twins, Robb's cavalry links with Seagard's forces and some survivors from Riverrun. The Blackfish's scouts have only seen a few Lannister outriders. It would stand to reason that if Raventree Hall was at this side of the Red Fork, they would've mentioned that they need to stealth around it, but no mention of the danger of a Raventree occupied by Lannisters on this side of the river that could blow their unnoticed approach.

It has fallen to Jaime (mostly because he's bored, not because there's real danger) the task to ride from the siege's camp to harry this side of the river. No help from Tywin. No mention of a detachment from Tywin's host to take Raventree Hall on this side of the Red Fork.

Since you can cross the Red Fork quite easily (unlike the green Fork) it's not unthinkable that Raventree Hall is north of the Red Fork.

Maybe Raventree was almost without soldiers so it wasn't a great accomplishment, while burning out brackens and pipers may have been way more difficult. Maybe Tywin took a small force to take a unguarded castle, while leaving Kevan in command of the main colum, I know it's unlikely. Or someone took the castle who unlike Clegane isn't worthy to be mentioned. A guy without merits aside from taking the castle.

I agree though that Raventree should be more in the East compared to where it is on the TVSeries map. It basically stands in the middle of the marching line of Robb between the twins and Riverrun, no way they wouldn't have seen Robb's approach. If it would be more in the east between the BLue fork and Red fork, this would not be a problem.

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Yes, I suspect the positioning is off. I'd push it further south and east (not beyond the Blue Fork, though), but still north of the Red Fork. That said, right now I have to assume it's where it is with GRRM's say-so. I tried to sort this out when we were working on the Lands of Ice and Fire but GRRM didn't have time to discuss additions to the Westeos map, as he'd already spent some time working on the new maps of Essos and the other regions.

The fact that Marbrand was at some point commanding outriders watching the Neck in chapter 59 does not preclude that he, or some else under Tywin's command, took Raventree as Tywin marched from the west. We learned Tywin was gathering forces back in chapter 40, and by chapter 56 he's all the way at the inn at the crossroads. In that time frame, a lot happened, and a lot of ground was covered.

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48 minutes ago, Ran said:

Yes, I suspect the positioning is off. I'd push it further south and east (not beyond the Blue Fork, though), but still north of the Red Fork. That said, right now I have to assume it's where it is with GRRM's say-so. I tried to sort this out when we were working on the Lands of Ice and Fire but GRRM didn't have time to discuss additions to the Westeos map, as he'd already spent some time working on the new maps of Essos and the other regions.

The fact that Marbrand was at some point commanding outriders watching the Neck in chapter 59 does not preclude that he, or some else under Tywin's command, took Raventree as Tywin marched from the west. We learned Tywin was gathering forces back in chapter 40, and by chapter 56 he's all the way at the inn at the crossroads. In that time frame, a lot happened, and a lot of ground was covered.

That's what I thought as well.

I don't know if it's appropriate to ask: Will there be new canonic maps in TWOW, or in the rerelease of the older books? Maps that include locations such as Raventree Hall, Hornwood castle or the Hollow Hill?

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6 minutes ago, Ran said:

Not to my knowledge, but if we get the opportunity to bring it up we'll certainly recommend it to George and Random House. Raventree, at the very least, since it appeared directly.

Thank you for the quick response.

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2 hours ago, Bironic said:

Since you can cross the Red Fork quite easily (unlike the green Fork) it's not unthinkable that Raventree Hall is north of the Red Fork.

Downstream of Riverrun there are virtually no fords and no easy portages, with the left bank "wilder. High rocky bluffs rose twenty feet above them, crowned by stands of beech, oak, and chestnut", while the river is "wide and slow, a meandering river of loops and bends dotted with tiny wooded islets and frequently choked by sandbars and snags that lurked just below the water’s surface" so it's difficult to cross.

Jaime and his men could cross because they commanded the fords near RR.

2 hours ago, Bironic said:

Or someone took the castle who unlike Clegane isn't worthy to be mentioned. A guy without merits aside from taking the castle.

Is unlikely someone like Tywin would give such a task as capturing a foothold on the left bank of the Red Fork to someone without renown. He'd be crushing too many egos and gaining resentment from his bannermen for free, and there's a likely chance that this nobody will muck it up, which would embolden the opposing forces.

2 hours ago, Bironic said:

I agree though that Raventree should be more in the East compared to where it is on the TVSeries map. It basically stands in the middle of the marching line of Robb between the twins and Riverrun, no way they wouldn't have seen Robb's approach. If it would be more in the east between the BLue fork and Red fork, this would not be a problem.

The thing is that it doesn't matter if Raventree Hall is where it's said to be or a little to the east on the left bank of the Red Fork; it stands close enough to the path of Robb's army that their scouts would have known of Robb's arrival and would have communicated this to Jaime, who is closest and in the direct path of the host, thereby revealing Robb's ruse to the Lannisters.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

That said, right now I have to assume it's where it is with GRRM's say-so. I tried to sort this out when we were working on the Lands of Ice and Fire but GRRM didn't have time to discuss additions to the Westeos map, as he'd already spent some time working on the new maps of Essos and the other regions.

For the record, I'm not trying to second-guess or claim to know better than the author himself. I'm just trying to point out that the evidence we have from the books and a little bit of common sense point to the location of Raventree Hall at the same side of the river as Stone Hedge, since Bracken and Blackwood share borders (we know this from Jaime's POV from ADwD) and fight for lands which adjoin their fiefs and been at it for millennia.

For now, all I've got against my point is conjecture and no solid text evidence other than the author's word (and I know that you @Ran have worked personally with him, but still no real evidence; I believe he reserves his right to change his mind about it the future, as he should) but no pinpoint in the map. I really wish he would look back at the evidence of his own work and reconsider this point, at least.

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You're taking Jaime's description of the land immediately around him just a few hours outside of Riverrun as representing the entirety of the Red Fork. That's further than I would go. It's a long river, one presumes its geography is capable of changing. The slow, wide, shallow parts dotted with isles sound like they'd provide easy ferrying opportunities and perhaps even crossing with the use of guide ropes.

There's also no reason that their seats being separated by a river means they don't have adjoining lands. GRRM certainly did not believe that was an issue in 2004, and yet he was very clearly framing his remark about their placement in relation to their rivalry (specifically he said he intended to place Raventree and Stone Hedge on opposite sides of the river).

It's also worth recalling that lords do not necessarily have contiguous lands in Westeros; much as in the Middle Ages, their domains may over the centuries wax and wan unevenly leaving them with bits here and there. We tend to simplify the picture a lot because it's easiest to imagine a seat in the center of a continguous domain, but that's just a convenience for readers rather than an accurate reflection of the novels.

The only real issue is how far away Raventree is being placed from the Red Fork and Stone Hedge, IMO. Everything else fits well enough with the facts we have on hand.

 

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

You're taking Jaime's description of the land immediately around him just a few hours outside of Riverrun as representing the entirety of the Red Fork. That's further than I would go. It's a long river, one presumes its geography is capable of changing. The slow, wide, shallow parts dotted with isles sound like they'd provide easy ferrying opportunities and perhaps even crossing with the use of guide ropes.

Yeah, I know. I was hesitant about quoting Jaime's description of the river and the landscape around it precisely for the point that you mention (that a small fraction of the river doesn't represent its entirety), but I wanted to illustrate that the crossing of the river was not as easy as Bironic assumed, at least for many miles downriver. Still, they had sailed half the night and well past midday when the river galley caught up to them and Brienne climbs the high bluff to drop the boulder over the galley, so it's not only "a few hours" but a whole day.

Contrary to your belief (which is not unreasonable), Jaime's statement about the river being shallow and dotted with isles is that it's treacherous: "The Red Fork was wide and slow, a meandering river of loops and bends dotted with tiny wooded islets and frequently choked by sandbars and snags that lurked just below the water’s surface. Brienne seemed to have a keen eye for the dangers, though, and always seemed to find the channel. When Jaime complimented her on her knowledge of the river, she looked at him suspiciously and said, “I do not know the river. Tarth is an island. I learned to manage oars and sail before I ever sat a horse.”

1 hour ago, Ran said:

It's also worth recalling that lords do not necessarily have contiguous lands in Westeros; much as in the Middle Ages, their domains may over the centuries wax and wan unevenly leaving them with bits here and there. We tend to simplify the picture a lot because it's easiest to imagine a seat in the center of a continguous domain, but that's just a convenience for readers rather than an accurate reflection of the novels.

I agree.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

The only real issue is how far away Raventree is being placed from the Red Fork and Stone Hedge, IMO. Everything else fits well enough with the facts we have on hand.

If we were to take GRRM strictly at his word, then yes. However, from the evidence collected on my previous posts I think it's fair to conclude that Tywin's army made a sweeping move through the RL in a west-east direction, without touching the lands at the north of the Red Fork; otherwise those stationed there would've come into contact with Robb's host --or at least warned about its presence to the larger Lannister army stationed outside RR-- while being a thorn in Robb's side (or harassing his rear).

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And what of the seats north of the river -- holdfasts, for example, which we know Jaime stormed -- that were in Lannister hands? Simply having a small garrison in a seat north of the Red Fork would not by itself provide warning. The enemy would have to pass through or close by the lands, and then they'd have to fail to hide or screen their movements. We know Brynden was particularly adept at getting Robb's army past outriders.

If I get the opportunity to bring up Raventree's location with George, I'll certainly do so, and will point out the various issues that might make placing it south of the river easier. But if he's placed it north of the river in ADwD, as he seeme to be intending, I'm not at all as convinced as you are that it's impossible to fit that with the info in AGoT.

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23 hours ago, Ran said:

Back in 2004 GRRM mailed Linda and I (this was very shortly after my meeting him in Santa Fe) and noted he was planning to explicitly place them on opposite sides of the Red Fork.

The first map to note the location of Raventree, IIRC, was actually the early HBO map for GoT. We never really established if that was based on info George gave them or not -- I had been asked by HBO about where Raventree was located and gave them speculation based on the facts we knew (including GRRM's 2004 statement) but we never figured out whether HBO went on to confirm with GRRM or not.

But since then RH has published maps with Raventree noted and have used that location as well, and the Lands of Ice and Fire maps were indeed looked at by George so presumably he had no objection. OTOH, there's lots of detail in maps, and maybe he missed it if it was being placed erroneously.

In any case, opposite sides of the river was what GRRM intended way back when, I suppose, he was writing those Jaime chapters that eventually ended up in ADwD. How far apart I can't say with absolute certainty, though. The HBO location seems a bit too far off in my mind, but if they got it from George, that's what he intends.

Thank you, Ran, for this explanation. I'll take it as semi-canon and draw my map accordingly.

I'll take Raventree Hall north of the Red Fork and Stone Hedge south of it, if that's what GRRM meant - though I have to say it's not very clear in the books (Jaime chapters). The impression I got from the books is that the lands are adjoining because Jonos Bracken with his map and then Jaime showing the same map to Tytos Blackwood, and they bargain over several villages and mills, and Barba's/Missy's Teats are mentioned and seen, and it all just gives an impression that the lands are adjoining, and one of the biggest rivers in Westeros, the Red Fork of the Trident, is never mentioned - and you'd think Jaime would be familiar with the river - it's how he escaped from captivity in Riverrun with Brienne.

So, are Barba's/Missy's Teats north or south of the river? :-D

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OK, now I've finished reading all the comments, and now I'm more confused than ever. :-D

I started this thread to get simple answers to my simple map questions, and what I get is confused and complex and speculative surmises... with GRRM muddles thrown in...

That said, I'm really grateful for everybody's input, you've opened my eyes to alternatives that I'd never thought of - though, I must say, Tywin never went north of the river. Not until he crossed at the Ruby Ford and went north to meet Robb's army along the Green Fork. The only Lannister troops north of the Red Fork were Jaime's - and we saw how that ended (hahaha!)

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Moving on from Raventree Hall and Stone Hedge...

My next query is Darry, Ruby Ford and the Inn at the Crossroads.

My impression from reading the books is that the Inn at the Crossroads is somewhat north of the Trident. It used to be on the river but in living memory the river changed course (Septon Meribald tells Brienne this) and left the inn on dry land, so now the Trident is slightly south of the inn, and the ford, the Ruby Ford, is slightly south and west. Arya and Micah went that way and then Sansa and Joffrey rode along the river, presumably west, to meet at that fateful encounter.

Next we're told the royal party and Ned's northern party are staying at Darry, south of the river.

I'm wondering how Darry relates to Ruby Ford. I'll be grateful for any clarifications. I'm drawing a bloody map!

I've done Dorne, most of the Reach, Westerlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, the Vale... But next I have to draw the Riverlands and it's really confusing.

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22 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Moving on from Raventree Hall and Stone Hedge...

My next query is Darry, Ruby Ford and the Inn at the Crossroads.

My impression from reading the books is that the Inn at the Crossroads is somewhat north of the Trident. It used to be on the river but in living memory the river changed course (Septon Meribald tells Brienne this) and left the inn on dry land, so now the Trident is slightly south of the inn, and the ford, the Ruby Ford, is slightly south and west. Arya and Micah went that way and then Sansa and Joffrey rode along the river, presumably west, to meet at that fateful encounter.

Next we're told the royal party and Ned's northern party are staying at Darry, south of the river.

I'm wondering how Darry relates to Ruby Ford. I'll be grateful for any clarifications. I'm drawing a bloody map!

I've done Dorne, most of the Reach, Westerlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, the Vale... But next I have to draw the Riverlands and it's really confusing.

As said by @Rhaenys_Targaryen above, the Ruby Ford is to the east of the Inn at the Crossroads.

As for Darry:

"The castle was a modest holding a half day's ride south of the Trident." Eddard III AGOT

"Darry and Harrenhal are south across the Trident." Brienne V AFFC

Given that it is stopped at so many times - e.g. the King's party going both North and South in AGOT, Jaime in AFFC it is probably pretty near the Kingsroad.

But then for some reason it is put to the North of the Trident on the app, going unequivocally against what is in the books.

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Next up: the Neck.

The books tell us it's impassable except along the causeway, which passes through Moat Cailin (along the northern fringe). Outside, it's all noxious bogs and quicksand etc. It's hinted that the Children tried to bring down the Hammer of the Waters like they did at the Arm of Dorne, but it wasn't entirely successful.

My problem, in drawing a map, is that the southern/western Flint lands are west of the Neck, along that big peninsula, and judging by the shading on the maps in the books, forested in the east. Maybe the eastern fringe is bogs etc., impassable. Only, it kind of leaves the Flints in a cul-de-sac, unless they take boats to the Rills or Barrowlands across the Salt Spear/Fever. Doesn't seem very convenient. They'd have easier access to Seagard, which is pledged to Riverrun. Maybe the Flints are just stubborny northern and want to pledge to Winterfell.

Any thoughts? Or clarifications?

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