map matters

[talvikorppi]

The purpose of this thread is what it says on the tin. I'm asking you all for your knowledge about ASoIaF/Westerosi maps.

I'm in a pickle. I've been commissioned to make a large (50x70 cm) hand-painted, framed map of Westeros (and western parts of Essos = Braavos, Pentos, Myr, Tyrosh, Lys).

I'm starting with the book maps and the map that came with the S1 DVD of the HBO show that I turned into my hand-painted A3 map.

I do not have access to the "World book" and its maps, or the map collection from a couple of years ago (both on my X-mas pressie list, though  :-) )

Right now, I'm most interested in the location of Raventree Hall and Stone Hedge - the seats of the Blackwoods and the Brackens. From reading the books, I always thought they were south of the Red Fork of the Trident. I have a version of a map, given by my commissioner, from the internet, where both are north of the Red Fork.

It just doesn't seem right.

Can anybody clarify?

And I'll be very grateful for any map tips. For instance, how to colour in all the sea without using water colours? Aquarelle would achieve the best colour but also make the paper wavy.

Thank you in advance for your help.

 

[Adam Yozza]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Raventree_Hall

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Stone_Hedge

Obviously the wiki is not always 100% accurate but in the case of both Raventree and Stone Hedge I'm pretty sure it is right. I'll consult World of Ice and Fire tomorrow for you to double check.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

12 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Raventree_Hall

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Stone_Hedge

Obviously the wiki is not always 100% accurate but in the case of both Raventree and Stone Hedge I'm pretty sure it is right. I'll consult World of Ice and Fire tomorrow for you to double check.

I don't think its logical that Blackwoods and Brackens have killed each other for millennia if their lands were divided by a major river. Their lands must be adjacent to each other.

@talvikorppi Check this map. I know it's speculative since we don't have its exact location, but I think having Raventree Hall between Harrenhal and Stone Hedge makes more sense. Maybe it will serve you with some other locations as well.

[talvikorppi]

14 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Raventree_Hall

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Stone_Hedge

Obviously the wiki is not always 100% accurate but in the case of both Raventree and Stone Hedge I'm pretty sure it is right. I'll consult World of Ice and Fire tomorrow for you to double check.

Yeah, but... Those Wiki entries say Raventree Hall is north of the Red Fork and Stone Hedge south of the Red Fork. But the canon GRRM books never mention Jaime crossing the Trident (Red Fork) in his quest to solve the Bracken/Blackwood thing. In fact, the books give the impression the Blackwood and Bracken lands are adjoining. That's why Jaime has to look at their maps and decide who's to have Missy's/Barb's Teats etc.

[Philokles]

The map on A World of Ice and Fire puts Raventree Hall to the North and Stone Hedge to the South as well. Only Stone Hedge in The World of Ice and Fire, but again to the South of the Red Fork.

[talvikorppi]

28 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I don't think its logical that Blackwoods and Brackens have killed each other for millennia if their lands were divided by a major river. Their lands must be adjacent to each other.

@talvikorppi Check this map. I know it's speculative since we don't have its exact location, but I think having Raventree Hall between Harrenhal and Stone Hedge makes more sense. Maybe it will serve you with some other locations as well.

Hey, thanks, Blackfyre Bastard.

I think that's pretty much the map I had from my client but I wanted to check things for accuracy - as much as is possible with a work in progress.

I just wanted to know I'm not unusually thick to think, based on what I've read, that Bracken and Blackwood lands are adjoining. Jaime allocates the lands when he accepts Lord Blackwood's surrender, using a map given to him by Lord Bracken. Jaime accepts Lord Blackwood's son Hoster as a hostage (instead of the beloved daughter that Jonos Bracken told him about). Hoss the Hostage tells Jaime the history of the Bracken-Blackwood feud. From that I thought it was obvious Bracken (Stone Hedge) and Blackwood (Raventree) lands were adjoining. So whoever drew a map with their lands on different sides of the Red Fork must've been ill-informed, or just plain wrong.

ETA. Or party to some information I'm not.

 

[talvikorppi]

16 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

The map on A World of Ice and Fire puts Raventree Hall to the North and Stone Hedge to the South as well. Only Stone Hedge in The World of Ice and Fire, but again to the South of the Red Fork.

OK, I bow down on such authorative info. I've been mislead because from the ASoIaF books, it seems Brackens and Blackwoods are neighbours, south of the Red Fork. Because Barba's/Missy's Teats.

The Red Fork is supposed to be a major river (cf. Brienne's & Jaime's escape) so I'd think Jaime, pacifying (he thinks, har!) the Riverlands would've mentioned crossing the Red Fork. And Bracken and Blackwood lands must be on the same side and adjoining, because of the tits. Or maybe I'm just a tit.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

28 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

The map on A World of Ice and Fire puts Raventree Hall to the North and Stone Hedge to the South as well. Only Stone Hedge in The World of Ice and Fire, but again to the South of the Red Fork.

Do you have a link on the Weirne... erm, some site that displays this map?

[Philokles]

5 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

OK, I bow down on such authorative info. I've been mislead because from the ASoIaF books, it seems Brackens and Blackwoods are neighbours, south of the Red Fork. Because Barba's/Missy's Teats.

The Red Fork is supposed to be a major river (cf. Brienne's & Jaime's escape) so I'd think Jaime, pacifying (he thinks, har!) the Riverlands would've mentioned crossing the Red Fork. And Bracken and Blackwood lands must be on the same side and adjoining, because of the tits. Or maybe I'm just a tit.

I agree that it makes little sense. Maybe when the locations were determined before the Blackwood-Bracken rivalry had been invented, or the only space for them was on opposite sides of the river.

4 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Do you have a link on the Weirne... erm, some site that displays this map?

I have the app on my iPad, give me a minute and I'll upload a screenshot somewhere.

[Philokles]

11 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Do you have a link on the Weirne... erm, some site that displays this map?

http://imgur.com/a/rKK8j

[fire&blood]

I just got an amazing gift that may help....the 4D map of westeros puzzle. I can look to see where exactly raven tree hall and stone hedge are located and let you know. Maybe it has some answers 

[Blackfyre Bastard]

7 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

http://imgur.com/a/rKK8j

Thanks. 

But is this canon?

[Philokles]

3 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Thanks. 

But is this canon?

Semi-canon according to Ran

On 05/06/2015 at 10:38 AM, Ran said:

It is semi-canon. It contains material contributions from GRRM, and its text was reviewed by him. That said, it is not fully canon because GRRM reserves the right to change details noted in the app when he actually sits down to publish the details in the course of the novels. As a notable example,, his vision of the relationship of Bloodraven to what happened in Maekar's reign changed substantially when he sat down and wrote his contributions for the world book, and we'll be getting the app corrected in that regard.

[talvikorppi]

You know, maybe I am being a bit stupid.

Jonos Bracken laying siege to Tytos Blackwood does NOT mean they're neighbours.

All I know is Jaime, very diplomatically, lifts the Bracken siege on Lord Tytos Blackwood/Raventree Hall. Jonos Bracken is doing the sieging, not very well, and the map thing (Jonos Bracken showed Jaime villages and mills he'd want) made me think they're neighbours, and I never thought they'd be neighbours across the river. One of the major rivers in Westeros.The river is never mentioned in Jaime's POV chapter, and you'd think a major river would be. Jaime is a military commander and notes things like these in his internal monologue. BUT if Bracken lands were north of the Red Fork and Jonos Bracken was laying siege to Tytos Blackwood south of the river, it might work.

It just doesn't seem to make any sense if they're on the opposite sides of the Red Fork, for the ancient feud and present shenanigans. Maybe Missy's/Barba's Tits are visible from either side but the way Jaime's trip and his info from Hoss the hostage (a Blackwood son) was written... And Pennytree!

Is Pennytree south or north of the Red Fork? Jaime & co. stopped/camped at Pennytree, a royal fief amidst the Bracken and Blackwood lands, between Missy's/Barba's teats.

(It's a nice touch. Brienne is probably a descendant of Ser Duncan the Tall, who was a squire to Ser Arlan of Pennytree... And that's where Jaime and Brienne meet again...)

[talvikorppi]

Ah, yeah, where's Pennytree? :-D

[aryagonnakill#2]

I'm finding this shocking and frankly want to call bullshit on their lands being so far away on opposite sides of the river like that.  As others have pointed out the River would obviously be the boundary in this case.

The Journeys map shows Jaime going north and east from Riverrun before looping southeast towards the Kignsroad meeting up with Briennes and ending.

When Robb is moving towards Riverrun he joins up with the Mallisters and Blackwoods, and Brackens are already inside RR.  I always assumed this meant that the Brackens were simply closer to RR, but maybe we should've taken it as evidence they were not on the way.

[Philokles]

12 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

Ah, yeah, where's Pennytree? :-D

North of the river, it is the three swords just above the Stone Hedge label on the image I posted above.

[Adam Yozza]

Since my last post I've come across a passage that changed my opinion somewhat (see last paragraph) so I stand corrected in my earlier statement that they were on opposite sides of the Red Fork, but I'd like to point out that the rivalry can still make perfect sense even using the locations given in the wiki. The thing is, to all those people who assume that because they're rivals they must be right next to each other, both house's were the heads of their own kingdoms at one point.So even if their lands aren't right next to each other, their kingdoms would be. They fought over land for centuries if not thousands of years, and now each thinks they have a better claim on some of the others lands.

The feud was helped along when the Andal's defeated and subjugated both kingdoms and the Bracken's converted to the Seven, while the Blackwood's remained faithful to the Old Gods.

Now then, Raventree Hall is not shown on the Riverlands map in The World of Ice and Fire but Stone Hedge is definitely south of the Red Fork. However, something I found in the books has changed my opinion a little. It is stated that during the Lannister invasion of the Riverlands, the castle was taken by Lannister men because Tytos was at Riverrun with all of his men and we know that, except for small groups, the Lannister's never pushed north of the Red Fork. Stone Hedge was also taken along with Darry and several other castles south of the RF.   

[Ran]

Back in 2004 GRRM mailed Linda and I (this was very shortly after my meeting him in Santa Fe) and noted he was planning to explicitly place them on opposite sides of the Red Fork.

The first map to note the location of Raventree, IIRC, was actually the early HBO map for GoT. We never really established if that was based on info George gave them or not -- I had been asked by HBO about where Raventree was located and gave them speculation based on the facts we knew (including GRRM's 2004 statement) but we never figured out whether HBO went on to confirm with GRRM or not.

But since then RH has published maps with Raventree noted and have used that location as well, and the Lands of Ice and Fire maps were indeed looked at by George so presumably he had no objection. OTOH, there's lots of detail in maps, and maybe he missed it if it was being placed erroneously.

In any case, opposite sides of the river was what GRRM intended way back when, I suppose, he was writing those Jaime chapters that eventually ended up in ADwD. How far apart I can't say with absolute certainty, though. The HBO location seems a bit too far off in my mind, but if they got it from George, that's what he intends.

[Wrl6199]

yeah i'm pretty familiar with the general landscape.