map matters

[talvikorppi]

14 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

As said by @Rhaenys_Targaryen above, the Ruby Ford is to the east of the Inn at the Crossroads.

As for Darry:

"The castle was a modest holding a half day's ride south of the Trident." Eddard III AGOT

"Darry and Harrenhal are south across the Trident." Brienne V AFFC

Given that it is stopped at so many times - e.g. the King's party going both North and South in AGOT, Jaime in AFFC it is probably pretty near the Kingsroad.

But then for some reason it is put to the North of the Trident on the app, going unequivocally against what is in the books.

So the Ruby Ford is east of the Inn at the Crossroads? I was under the impression it's west because Arya said she was going upstream, and the Trident flows broadly from west to east at that point. So upstream would be west, neh?

Yah, and Darry isn't a big problem. Obviously south of the river and close to the Kingsroad.

[Philokles]

13 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

So the Ruby Ford is east of the Inn at the Crossroads? I was under the impression it's west because Arya said she was going upstream, and the Trident flows broadly from west to east at that point. So upstream would be west, neh?

Yah, and Darry isn't a big problem. Obviously south of the river and close to the Kingsroad.

But then Sansa says "they ranged east along the north bank of the Trident" to the Ruby Ford.

Maybe Sansa has no sense of direction whatsoever, or Arya went in the wrong direction initially before realising she should be heading west.

[talvikorppi]

5 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

But then Sansa says "they ranged east along the north bank of the Trident" to the Ruby Ford.

Maybe Sansa has no sense of direction whatsoever, or Arya went in the wrong direction initially before realising she should be heading west.

Har! Thanks for this tidbit.

Considering the Stark girls, I'd go with Arya's assessment. She'd know which way the river flows. Sansa doesn't strike me as very outdoorsy or clued up about these things, plus she was starry-eyed totes in love with Joff at the time (and Joff got her drunk) so I'd put her down as a very unreliable narrator at this time.

It doesn't really matter to me whether the Ruby Ford is west or east of the Inn at the Crossroads, because the scale of the map I'm drawing won't show it anyway, haha!

[Blackfyre Bastard]

I think there's a problem of nomenclature, since by the moment the river reaches the Inn at the Crossroads, the Forks have joined and the river is called the Trident. So, if the Ruby Ford is indeed located on the Green Fork, it should be upstream/west of the Inn at the Crossroads.

That being said, by the accounts on the books, the general location of the ford should be east of the Inn.

[tugela]

On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 3:21 PM, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I don't think its logical that Blackwoods and Brackens have killed each other for millennia if their lands were divided by a major river. Their lands must be adjacent to each other.

@talvikorppi Check this map. I know it's speculative since we don't have its exact location, but I think having Raventree Hall between Harrenhal and Stone Hedge makes more sense. Maybe it will serve you with some other locations as well.

There lands are adjacent to each other, just with a river as a fence

They have boats, which means that they can be raiding each other on a routine basis.

[Ran]

And arguably a river as a rough boundary between their core seats and lands would make it more likely that they'd skirmish and raid one another without being able to easily escalate to all-out, existence-threatening warfare. Which, if they've been feuding for thousands of years, would be a real risk if they had nothing between them to slow them down somewhat.

[Adam Yozza]

16 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

Next up: the Neck.

The books tell us it's impassable except along the causeway, which passes through Moat Cailin (along the northern fringe). Outside, it's all noxious bogs and quicksand etc. It's hinted that the Children tried to bring down the Hammer of the Waters like they did at the Arm of Dorne, but it wasn't entirely successful.

My problem, in drawing a map, is that the southern/western Flint lands are west of the Neck, along that big peninsula, and judging by the shading on the maps in the books, forested in the east. Maybe the eastern fringe is bogs etc., impassable. Only, it kind of leaves the Flints in a cul-de-sac, unless they take boats to the Rills or Barrowlands across the Salt Spear/Fever. Doesn't seem very convenient. They'd have easier access to Seagard, which is pledged to Riverrun. Maybe the Flints are just stubborny northern and want to pledge to Winterfell.

Any thoughts? Or clarifications?

I'd say there is likely a path along the edge of that peninsula that joins up with the King's Road just before Moat Cailin. As for the link to Seaguard, maybe the forest is too thick for easy access? And the Green Fork splits above the Twins doesn't it? I'm pretty sure one of those branches stops not far from the coast, leaving only a narrow, hilled, very densely forested gap to lead from Seaguard to Flints Finger.

And yeah, they probably wanted to remain loyal to the Stark's.

[talvikorppi]

On 20.10.2016 at 6:11 PM, Adam Yozza said:

I'd say there is likely a path along the edge of that peninsula that joins up with the King's Road just before Moat Cailin. As for the link to Seaguard, maybe the forest is too thick for easy access? And the Green Fork splits above the Twins doesn't it? I'm pretty sure one of those branches stops not far from the coast, leaving only a narrow, hilled, very densely forested gap to lead from Seaguard to Flints Finger.

And yeah, they probably wanted to remain loyal to the Stark's.

Yeah, but... They'd either have to cross the treacherous bogs south of Moat Cailin to connect with the causeway or, to get north of MC, cross Fever river, which, from the Greyjoy chapters, seems difficult and diseased (probably mosquitoes and a malaria-type disease). The books tell us time and again the Neck is impassable except along the causeway and through Moat Cailin. If there was an alternative route, wouldn't Andal would-be conquerors have used that?

Maybe the bogs just stretch from the Bite to the area between the Cape of Eagles and the Flint Cliffs so it's all impassable. But what still beats me is how the Flints of the peninsula south of the Saltspear connect with the rest of the North. Maybe by boat and they've got ancient loyalty - the Flints hail from the Flint Hills northwest of Winterfell and these particular Flints are just a cadet house of the original Flints.

I'm getting so confused now, and I'm supposed to be very authoritative and drew a map! hahaha!

 

[talvikorppi]

I'd like to thank everybody who've provided info, quotes and insights to my mapping problems so far. I'd especially like to thank Ran for his "horse's mouth" info.

I solved the Raventree/Stone Hedge problem the easy way. I left them out, hahaha!

I've got Raventree pencilled in between Fairmarket and Riverrun, so Stone Hedge could be across the Red Fork between Riverrun and the Inn of the Kneeling Man, but I'm not putting them in ink just yet.

I'd just like to say that GRRM is a great writer but maybe he was confused about this, the Lannister and Stark armies' movements etc. and didn't realise how intensely fans would scrutinise every detail and putative maps.

It's all a bit messy. That's why I have these questions.

[talvikorppi]

More map queries.

After the battle of Blackwater Bay, Ser Davos is stranded on a rock before being saved by one of Salladhor Saan's ships. Davos, the old smuggler, knows where he is, among the seastacks all honest sailors avoid. I can't remember the name of the seastacks and I'm away from my books atm so can't check.

I'm interested in the location. Near the north or the south side of the Blackwater Bay? How far from King's Landing? Apparently KL or the opposite coast is not visible to Davos so it must be a fair bit out.

I've always thought it was along the northern shore of Blackwater Bay, but the problem is that from KL to the area around Rosby would be very populated. So maybe beyond the headland and along the coast between KL/Rosby area and Duskendale? It can't be further than that because there's no way Davos could've floated/swum further than that, amazing though he is. and also, to be noth of Duskendale would make it kind of close to Driftmark and Dragonstone, and it apparently took him days to get to Dragonstone after being saved.

Maybe it's on the south side. You'd have to get past the Rosby area to the north to get uninterrupted sea views but it's possible.

None of these things matter unless you're trying to draw a map. It gets so very concrete then. :-)

 

[talvikorppi]

One more map question.

White tops.

I'm thinking of mountains that retain their white (snow/ice) top even in summer. Think of the high Alps in Europe and then all the subsidary mountain ranges without permanent snow/ice. (For the North American reader, think of the Rockies and/or the Sierra Nevada or the Cascades.)

There's the red mountains of Dorne, so they're obviously not high enough to be snow-topped in the summer, being that far south.

The Westerlands hills/mountains? No mention of snow/ice in the summer. I rather imagine them like the Scottish hills/mountains. Steep and spectacular but not very high and therefore hardly ever snowy during the summer, snowy in the winter.

The Mountains of the Moon/The Vale mountains. From the books, it seems to me that these mountains are high enough to have permanent white tops. Not all Vale mountains reach those giddy heights, though.

In the North, we have the Flint hills/mountains. It seems there's a mountain range that starts somewhat north of Winterfell and continues along the western coast, then across the Gorge at the Wall and on to become the Frostfangs north of the Wall. I'm wondering if the southern reaches of this range have perma-snow tops even in summer. I can't remeber what Bran and friends say/think when they're travelling through this country. No snow where they were, and no snow mentioned at the tops, though, as far as I can remember.

Anybody got any real info or informed insights on this matter?

Thank you in advance.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

56 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

I can't remember the name of the seastacks and I'm away from my books atm so can't check.

The Spears of the Merlin King

57 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Near the north or the south side of the Blackwater Bay?

Near the north coast, although from his location he can't see land on any side.

"the sight of the bay rippling green and grey all around him had been almost more than he could bear"

"[...] strike out for the shore that he knew lay somewhere to the north, beyond his sight."

1 hour ago, talvikorppi said:

How far from King's Landing?

Must be near the mouth of the Blackwater Rush and around KL

"He knew where his rock lay, more or less; it was one of a series of sea monts that rose from the floor of Blackwater Bay."

"His long years as a smuggler had made the waters around King’s Landing more familiar to him than any home he’d ever had, and he knew his refuge was no more than a speck on the charts, in a place that honest sailors steered away from, not toward"

Notice that Davos describes the Spears of the Merlin King as no more than a speck in the charts.

1 hour ago, talvikorppi said:

Maybe it's on the south side. You'd have to get past the Rosby area to the north to get uninterrupted sea views but it's possible.

Check this map of the Crownlands (from TWoIaF). The speck is probably (and I have to stress this word) under the first "e" of "Keep", from Red Keep, just south of that small peninsula.

1 hour ago, talvikorppi said:

I'd like to thank everybody who've provided info, quotes and insights to my mapping problems so far.

My pleasure. I love maps.

PS 60'38"? Man do you live up North! Helsinki?, Turku?

[Ser Didymus]

http://quartermaester.info/

[Blackfyre Bastard]

I just wanted to add that since Davos can't see land all around him, and due to line of the horizon (assuming the circumference of Planetos similar to Earth), he must be at least 7 km away from the continent.

[Werthead]

24 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I just wanted to add that since Davos can't see land all around him, and due to line of the horizon (assuming the circumference of Planetos similar to Earth), he must be at least 7 km away from the continent.

The planet is either the same size as Earth or slightly larger. In my Atlas of Ice and Fire project, I made out that the planet is around 8% larger than Earth.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

2 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The planet is either the same size as Earth or slightly larger. In my Atlas of Ice and Fire project, I made out that the planet is around 8% larger than Earth.

That's why I covered my a5s with the word "similar". 8%, while significant, it's not nearly dramatic enough as to recalculate the distance I provided. In any case, given the scale of the map OP is drawing, 7 or 15 km make not much of a difference.

[talvikorppi]

17 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

The Spears of the Merlin King

Near the north coast, although from his location he can't see land on any side.

"the sight of the bay rippling green and grey all around him had been almost more than he could bear"

"[...] strike out for the shore that he knew lay somewhere to the north, beyond his sight."

Must be near the mouth of the Blackwater Rush and around KL

"He knew where his rock lay, more or less; it was one of a series of sea monts that rose from the floor of Blackwater Bay."

"His long years as a smuggler had made the waters around King’s Landing more familiar to him than any home he’d ever had, and he knew his refuge was no more than a speck on the charts, in a place that honest sailors steered away from, not toward"

Notice that Davos describes the Spears of the Merlin King as no more than a speck in the charts.

Check this map of the Crownlands (from TWoIaF). The speck is probably (and I have to stress this word) under the first "e" of "Keep", from Red Keep, just south of that small peninsula.

My pleasure. I love maps.

PS 60'38"? Man do you live up North! Helsinki?, Turku?

Thank you, Blackfyre Bastard, for your info.

Yes, Spears of the Merlin! That's what Davos knew and I was trying to remember. Also, I wasn't totally off, thinking it was along the northern shore of Blackwater Bay.

I'm just a tad confused about Davos apparently not seeing coasts. I'm a sometime sailor and know you can see coasts/headlands 50 - 80 km (30 - 50 miles) away in clear weather. And Davos describes relentless sun = clear weather before being rescued. Maybe GRRM just doesn't know everything and makes mistakes. Haha.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

24 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

I'm just a tad confused about Davos apparently not seeing coasts. I'm a sometime sailor and know you can see coasts/headlands 50 - 80 km (30 - 50 miles) away in clear weather. And Davos describes relentless sun = clear weather before being rescued. Maybe GRRM just doesn't know everything and makes mistakes. Haha.

Well, the line of horizon doesn't depend exclusively on the geometry of the planet. In a cold, clear day, the atmosphere acts as a glass, refracting the light downwards, so you can see around the curvature of the planet. Of course, the opposite is true; in a hot day the distance would be shortened. It also is influenced by the height from which you're watching.

[talvikorppi]

Oh, and  this.

41 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

My pleasure. I love maps

Yay! I love to meet another map-lover.

I love, love, love maps. The map is not the territory, but it tells you a lot abot the territory, if you know how to read the map, yayahaha!.

Sure, I like all the online map resources, Google Maps and all... but I like old-fashoned paper maps. They give you perspective and scale.

I also know how to use a compass. Give me a proper map and a compass and I'll never get lost.

[talvikorppi]

1 hour ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Well, the line of horizon doesn't depend exclusively on the geometry of the planet. In a cold, clear day, the atmosphere acts as a glass, refracting the light downwards, so you can see around the curvature of the planet. Of course, the opposite is true; in a hot day the distance would be shortened. It also is influenced by the height from which you're watching.

Yes, I'm well aware of this phenomenon.

Last July, we sailed around the north of Norway, in the Barents Sea and the north North Sea. Affected by what we saw with our bare eyes, but especially the view from our powerful sea binoculars.

We adjsuted for it.

What I tried to say was that you'd have to be at least 10km away not to see land in clear weather, even in warmer climes.

Maybe I'm not expaining this well. When you're sailing on the big blue sea, a thin line in the horizon (maybe 50km away) is seeing land. I don't know what Davos would qualify as seeing land but he'd know when he's NOT seeing land. On the seastacks and looking south (=across Blackwater Bay) and not seeing the opposite shore, Davos said he's not seeing land there.

And GRRM hasn't an idea, and the books are a bit dodgy in this respect.