Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Quote Rayder's eyes met Jon's again. "Was it only the five of you? Or are more of your brothers skulking about?" "We were four and the Halfhand. Qhorin was worth twenty common men." The King-beyond-the-Wall smiled at that. "Some thought so. Still . . . a boy from Castle Black with rangers from the Shadow Tower? How did that come to be?" Jon had his lie all ready. "The Lord Commander sent me to the Halfhand for seasoning, so he took me on his ranging." Styr the Magnar frowned at that. "Ranging, you call it . . . why would crows come ranging up the Skirling Pass?" "The villages were deserted," Jon said, truthfully. "It was as if all the free folk had vanished." "Vanished, aye," said Mance Rayder. "And not just the free folk. Who told you where we were, Jon Snow?" Tormund snorted. "It were Craster, or I'm a blushing maid. I told you, Mance, that creature needs to be shorter by a head." The king gave the older man an irritated look. "Tormund, some day try thinking before you speak. I know it was Craster. I asked Jon to see if he would tell it true." "Har." Tormund spat. "Well, I stepped in that!" He grinned at Jon. "See, lad, that's why he's king and I'm not. I can outdrink, outfight, and outsing him, and my member's thrice the size o' his, but Mance has cunning. He was raised a crow, you know, and the crow's a tricksy bird." -- A Storm of Swords, Jon I This is Jon's first impression of Tormund, and ours as well. Yet by the end of A Dance with Dragons, I can't help but think of Tormund as cunning and guileful. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. But if I'm not, then how can we explain Tormund's supposed foolishness here - unless it was a set-up? After this meeting, Jon is left with Tormund, probably because Tormund is a nice, affable, likeable guy and Mance wants to make Jon fond of the Free Folk. Tormund's diplomatic mission here would probably go a lot harder if Jon thought he needed to watch what he said around him. Am I barking up the wrong tree here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPTWP Timett Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 I don't really think he did it on purpose, but Tormund's cunning is underrated in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scott Malkinson Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 3 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: This is Jon's first impression of Tormund, and ours as well. Yet by the end of A Dance with Dragons, I can't help but think of Tormund as cunning and guileful. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. But if I'm not, then how can we explain Tormund's supposed foolishness here - unless it was a set-up? After this meeting, Jon is left with Tormund, probably because Tormund is a nice, affable, likeable guy and Mance wants to make Jon fond of the Free Folk. Tormund's diplomatic mission here would probably go a lot harder if Jon thought he needed to watch what he said around him. Am I barking up the wrong tree here? Have you seen Preston Jacobs' Pink Letter theory? Sure, he's still a little rusty in it, and a lot of what he says doesn't fit, but the overall idea of a Wildling plot makes a lot of sense to me. And yes, Tormund is involved in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywater-Watch Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 4 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: Am I barking up the wrong tree here? Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 17 hours ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said: Have you seen Preston Jacobs' Pink Letter theory? Sure, he's still a little rusty in it, and a lot of what he says doesn't fit, but the overall idea of a Wildling plot makes a lot of sense to me. And yes, Tormund is involved in it. Yarp, that's one of the reasons I think Tormund is crafty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shmewdog Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 I think that he's not letting on as much as Jon would want. For example, I don't believe that he's illiterate, and I don't think that he's politically unsavvy as he would have us believe. But I do think that he is at least on some level fond of Jon, he must recognize that he is no ordinary crow. Most other crows would never even entertain the idea of letting the free folk through the wall, yet Jon does it. I think he knows that Jon is the best shot he's got at saving his people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSeer27 Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 Har!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 Tormund shows a lot of cunning in Dance, but remember that in the early books his character wasn't developed. Sure, it had some outlines, but I think George fell in love with that brute and gave him a lot of work later on. No, you're not barking at the wrong tree, but I can tell from here that you really need a dose of Winds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 I think there is a big difference between cunning an experience. Tormund has a rear guard and burns his bodies and negotiates tough with Jon, that doesn't really make him cunning. Speaking up is in line with everything we see of Tormund, and if killing Crastor was something Tormund was already eager to do, jumping at the opportunity to bring it up again would be normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 Contrary to popular belief, a general is only as good as his captains and lieutenants. Mance and Tormund make a good team. They are working toward the same short term goal. They know the danger and they know the solution. Get on the south side of the Wall and then deal with the major threat. On 10/18/2016 at 10:02 PM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: Yarp, that's one of the reasons I think Tormund is crafty Never watched any of PJ's videos but I do think Tormund is crafty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prince Of Tatters Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 Well after the supposed fall of Mance, he became the unofficial leader of the wildilings (had a much bigger say on their futures at least). Therefore I don't think it's inconceivable for him to become more wary and taciturn as a result, especially as he lost a son to an Other coupled with the fact taht he's been forced far more responsibility than in the earlier books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velo-knight Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 It's an interesting idea. However, it can also be explained by his irrepressible nature. I agree that Tormund and Jon like each other; and more importantly that Tormund respects Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 I never thought of Tormund as stupid. In that same chapter (I think), Mance says that along with Magnar and a few other dead people, Tormund was one of a few who could conceivably have become King Beyond the Wall. Leaders of people like the Free Folk don’t necessarily have to be splitting atoms, but there has to be a level of cunning when leading people who spend their lives raiding and fighting. Street smarts, etc. Like many jolly affable folk, he seems to use that persona to make friends/allies and keep people’s guard down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted December 9, 2016 Author Share Posted December 9, 2016 On 8/12/2016 at 6:05 AM, King Merrett I Frey said: No, you're not barking at the wrong tree, but I can tell from here that you really need a dose of Winds. Too right. Don't we all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aedam Targaryen Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 On 12/7/2016 at 4:05 PM, King Merrett I Frey said: No, you're not barking at the wrong tree, but I can tell from here that you really need a dose of Winds. Ha! That's the conclusion that I come to in every thread that I read! To the OP, I think Tormund is definitely more clever than he lets on, but I could see this going either way. They're talking in a wildling camp, and they don't get many non-wildlings where they're at, so it could be just a simple case of him forgetting his surroundings... even intelligent people can get comfortable in an environment that they're immersed in 24/7. And of course, at the same time, I do think he's clever enough for it to be some ploy to gain Jon's trust. I really like Tormund so I kind of hope it's the tricksy bird option, but we will hopefully get some answers soon. I think I'm more interested in what Tormund and Manse have going on in Winds than anyone else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywater-Watch Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 Tormund is more cunning than he appears to be for those who do not know him., Jon knows Tormund well enough. Tormund is loyal and trustful, if not Ghost and/or Jon would have sensed any treachery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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