Am I The Only One Around Here Who V.2

[Joey Crows]

9 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're the only one. Euron is not an anti-hero, he's a 100% villain. A supervillain, in fact.

@Joey Crows @Count Balerion How does Dany's wheel speech make sense? She lists names of various Westerosi houses and says she's going to "break the wheel"? What does it mean? She's going to abolish feudal order and hereditary monarchy and institute elective democracy?! That's obviously not the case. She's a Targaryen who believes in that same hereditary monarchy and feudal order and is trying to become Queen of Westeros as heir to her father. So that would then be her "wheel" turning once more.

AITOOAH who was always sure Aegon was fake - because the only 'evidence' of him being real is Varys' baby switch story, which is totally implausible and makes no sense?

Still agree about the Dany speech and with what the poster above just said.

As far as the Euron anti-hero thing goes, I may be the only one who wants to see that happen, and he is without a doubt a terrible person. But he is an anti-hero. An anti-hero is simply a major character in a story who does not have conventional heroic attributes. It does not mean he is a good person, in fact, quite the opposite.

[Annara Snow]

21 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The wheel speech makes sense because at the moment the various houses are squabbling and taking turns being on top. When you break the wheel, there's no more squabbling; one house/person is in charge. She's putting a stop to the cycle/wheel of violence and constantly shifting administration, not to feudalism or monarchy. 

If you completely discount the extremely obvious plant way back in Eddard's POV in the first book, and the successful baby switch Jon pulled off at the Wall with way fewer resources than Varys had, and the fact that more evidence might be coming up in future books because this is an unfinished series...then yeah there's no reason to think Aegon might be real. The baby-switch story is in fact entirely plausible, and makes a lot of sense. 

No, probably not. But the second part is not necessarily a given with the first. Just because we don't like what the author may do with some of the storylines doesn't mean the writing itself has been overrated. There won't be any surprises that lack evidence...it may be subtle evidence that didn't smack us in the face on the first read, but there will be evidence for every single thing. Whether things make sense, however depends on each reader's POV and thought processes. What makes sense to reader A doesn't have to make sense to reader B.

 

AITOOAHW kind of hopes that Cersei doesn't blow up KL, because it would be a shame to waste all that wildfire when there's an army of fire-weak wights headed south?

Probably not. I don't have any feelings on the matter. Obviously it would be nice not to have all those people blow up, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work narratively - and I doubt that wildfire is going to play any role in the fight against the Others.

No, the wheel speech does not make sense. Being on top doesn't make you've "broken the wheel", it just means you're currently ruling. Other families will still exist and may overturn your dynasty again, just as they did before. Or your own dynasty may start squabbling among themselves and splitting into various factions... just as Targaryens had done pretty much all the time they were in power.

What is the "extremely obvious plant"? Jon's baby switch has no similarity to Varys' supposed baby switch. No, the story does not make any sense. To believe that, I'd have to believe that:

- Varys had prophetic abilities and was able to foresee that the Mountain was going to smash Aegon's head and make him unrecognizable. (No, the "all infants look the same" argument does not work, because no, they don't look the same, and plenty of people in the court had seen Aegon and would know what he looked like.)

- Varys had the time and resources and foreknowledge to switch Aegon, but not Rhaenys. Because apparently, it's much harder to find a dark haired, dark eyed 7 year old girl in Westeros, than a Valyrian-looking infant? Except it should be the exact opposite. (You know where it's really easy to find Valyrian looking people? In Lys. Even if Aegon is not a Blackfyre, he could very easily be a random baby Varys found when he already knew Aegon was dead and had been impossible to positively identify.)

- Elia was totally down with the baby switch, because she believed Varys her children would be killed - but never asked for Rhaenys to be saved, too.

- Elia chose to be with someone else's baby son during the sack of King's Landing, rather than her own daughter. 

Plus, we're supposed to think that Varys is totally crazy about Targ restoration, but never gave a shit about Viserys or Dany.

Not to mention the fact that the only "evidence" of the baby switch is... Varys' own word. And we should just trust Varys. right?

And that's before we get to all the hints about the Blackfyres throughout the later books and the increasing mentions of them in Dunk and Egg novellas and TWOAIF. What exactly is the point of that, I wonder?

@Joey Crows: No, anti-hero is a protagonist who lacks conventional heroic attributes. Euron is not a protagonist. He is an antagonist - most likely the antagonist of the last couple of books. And not just an antagonist, he's also a full-on villain.

AITOOAH who never thought Lemore was Ashara?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Probably not. I don't have any feelings on the matter. Obviously it would be nice not to have all those people blow up, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work narratively - and I doubt that wildfire is going to play any role in the fight against the Others.

No, the wheel speech does not make sense. Being on top doesn't make you've "broken the wheel", it just means you're currently ruling. Other families will still exist and may overturn your dynasty again, just as they did before. Or your own dynasty may start squabbling among themselves and splitting into various factions... just as Targaryens had done pretty much all the time they were in power.

What is the "extremely obvious plant"? Jon's baby switch has no similarity to Varys' supposed baby switch. No, the story does not make any sense. To believe that, I'd have to believe that:

- Varys had prophetic abilities and was able to foresee that the Mountain was going to smash Aegon's head and make him unrecognizable. (No, the "all infants look the same" argument does not work, because no, they don't look the same, and plenty of people in the court had seen Aegon and would know what he looked like.)

- Varys had the time and resources and foreknowledge to switch Aegon, but not Rhaenys. Because apparently, it's much harder to find a dark haired, dark eyed 7 year old girl in Westeros, than a Valyrian-looking infant? Except it should be the exact opposite. (You know where it's really easy to find Valyrian looking people? In Lys. Even if Aegon is not a Blackfyre, he could very easily be a random baby Varys found when he already knew Aegon was dead and had been impossible to positively identify.)

- Elia was totally down with the baby switch, because she believed Varys her children would be killed - but never asked for Rhaenys to be saved, too.

- Elia chose to be with someone else's baby son during the sack of King's Landing, rather than her own daughter. 

Plus, we're supposed to think that Varys is totally crazy about Targ restoration, but never gave a shit about Viserys or Dany.

Not to mention the fact that the only "evidence" of the baby switch is... Varys' own word. And we should just trust Varys. right?

And that's before we get to all the hints about the Blackfyres throughout the later books and the increasing mentions of them in Dunk and Egg novellas and TWOAIF. What exactly is the point of that, I wonder?

 

AITOOAH who never thought Lemore was Ashara?

Nope. I never thought Lemore was Ashara either.

You're thinking in terms of the wheel being about who is ruling. That's not what it is. And Dany is only thinking of stopping the current problems, not of those that might crop up later. To be fair, as long as she has dragons, maintaining power is entirely doable.

Will address all the rest in PM, though I have to say I'm always amazed at people having missed the first Aegon clue, and the continued insistence that Varys is dishonest when the jury is still out on that, as well as the insistence that only Aegon could be a Blackfyre.

AITOOAHW thinks it would be cool if Quaithe turns out to be Ashara?

[RhaenysBee]

YES. YES. YES. Yes, I'm sorry, but that's just... please, if Ashara has to be alive, let's go with the lesser of the two evils and let her be Septa Lemore. 

Footnote to Tyrion and GRRM: stretch marks do not necessarily mean pregnancy. 

#FAegon: I am not at all convinced that Aegon is real. However: Jon convinced Gilly to give up her own child to save Mance's, why wouldn't Elia agree to hold a stranger babe in return for hope that her actual son would survive? Babies don't look all that distinctive, and the Mountain isn't the brightest person in the world, any baby in elia's arm would 95% fool the mountain, any blond baby 120%. Also remember that it's pretty convenient that the baby's head was smashed, so there was ultimately no way of telling wether it had the signature valyrian features or not. As far as I know Rhaenys was scared and hid under Rhaegar's bed, so nothing indicates that either Elia or Varys had knowledge of her whereabouts when things got bad. Also, Aegon was the male heir, OBVIOUSLY they were going to save him over Rhaenys. The open small scale baby switch at the wall had to have some sort of significance in terms of the bigger picture. Some time some place a grander, more important baby switch is likely to have taken place, otherwise why bother baby switching at the wall, for the sake of an uninteresting subplot no.26462827? Having said that, I can't name a single hint that indicates Aegon is alive before Tyrion book five chapters. The baby switch thing is hindsight bias and it can be applied to the Daenerys/Jon/MysteriousAsharaNedOrBrandonOffspring switch. So I really don't know whether the kid is real or not. It's pretty damn convenient both ways. 

#WheelSpeech - there's nothing wrong with that wheel speech, it's a metaphor and Daenerys isn't a literary expert, her metaphors are allowed to be off. But people will deconstruct every single line of the show (especially Daenerys says it) to show how crap it is compared to the books. And it kinda is 7 times out of 10, but 3 times it's okay and book fans just enjoy nitpicking. It was supposed to be dramatic and metaphors aren't rocket science, there isn't one good answer to decypher them. 

 

Am I the only one around here who wonders if Jeyne Poole will ever find peace in life? 

[Annara Snow]

No, you're not. Lots of people are wondering the same and feeling sorry and worried for poor Jeyne.

Re: fAegon: the Mountain's intelligence is irrelevant - Varys couldn't have foreseen that he would be the one to kill Aegon, rather than some other henchman. So, again we must have Varys be prophetic/psychic in order to plan the whole thing beforehand. He couldn't have known who would kill whom, or that Aegon's face would not remain intact, in which case someone else may have noticed "hey, that's not Aegon". (At least with Jon's switch, it's really unlikely Val was going to be alerting Stannis and Melisandre.) What if Amory Lorch had stabbed Aegon, while the Mountain smashed Rhaenys' face?

And the argument that "of course Aegon was going to be saved over Rhaenys" misses the point. Why exactly wouldn't they have saved both? If Varys could switch one child, why not both?

I don't see why one switch must mean that there had to be another. For one thing, maybe GRRM just wants to fool the readers by making a baby switch appear more plausible on the surface? And if that's the only reason, then that's a huge waste of a story, since Jon and Sam are way more major characters than Varys. More likely it's there to show that Jon can sometimes be ruthless for what he sees as a good cause, and create drama and pain for Gilly and Sam. 

Also, it's not like Gilly really accepted that. Jon made the decision and she had no choice. Varys OTOH did not have such power over Elia.

AITOOAH who would be totally OK with Quaithe being just Quaithe, rather than anyone's secret identity?

[Raisin' Bran]

I am completely cool with a mysterious figure not having a relatively important backstory. The important backstory component can be easily over-done and I think the elimination of Quaithe as an important person from the past, is cool. Of course I am also completely cool with knowing that she is someone else we know.

AITOOAH who will eat candy even if it is not very good. Not that I pig out on bad candy all the time, but I am eating a chocolate bar right now that is not really good and I do not know why.

[Joey Crows]

6 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Probably not. I don't have any feelings on the matter. Obviously it would be nice not to have all those people blow up, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work narratively - and I doubt that wildfire is going to play any role in the fight against the Others.

No, the wheel speech does not make sense. Being on top doesn't make you've "broken the wheel", it just means you're currently ruling. Other families will still exist and may overturn your dynasty again, just as they did before. Or your own dynasty may start squabbling among themselves and splitting into various factions... just as Targaryens had done pretty much all the time they were in power.

What is the "extremely obvious plant"? Jon's baby switch has no similarity to Varys' supposed baby switch. No, the story does not make any sense. To believe that, I'd have to believe that:

- Varys had prophetic abilities and was able to foresee that the Mountain was going to smash Aegon's head and make him unrecognizable. (No, the "all infants look the same" argument does not work, because no, they don't look the same, and plenty of people in the court had seen Aegon and would know what he looked like.)

- Varys had the time and resources and foreknowledge to switch Aegon, but not Rhaenys. Because apparently, it's much harder to find a dark haired, dark eyed 7 year old girl in Westeros, than a Valyrian-looking infant? Except it should be the exact opposite. (You know where it's really easy to find Valyrian looking people? In Lys. Even if Aegon is not a Blackfyre, he could very easily be a random baby Varys found when he already knew Aegon was dead and had been impossible to positively identify.)

- Elia was totally down with the baby switch, because she believed Varys her children would be killed - but never asked for Rhaenys to be saved, too.

- Elia chose to be with someone else's baby son during the sack of King's Landing, rather than her own daughter. 

Plus, we're supposed to think that Varys is totally crazy about Targ restoration, but never gave a shit about Viserys or Dany.

Not to mention the fact that the only "evidence" of the baby switch is... Varys' own word. And we should just trust Varys. right?

And that's before we get to all the hints about the Blackfyres throughout the later books and the increasing mentions of them in Dunk and Egg novellas and TWOAIF. What exactly is the point of that, I wonder?

@Joey Crows: No, anti-hero is a protagonist who lacks conventional heroic attributes. Euron is not a protagonist. He is an antagonist - most likely the antagonist of the last couple of books. And not just an antagonist, he's also a full-on villain.

AITOOAH who never thought Lemore was Ashara?

According to Webster's dictionary, an anti-hero is a protagonist or notable character who is conspicuously lacking in heroic qualities. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antihero

[RhaenysBee]

Re: Aegon - varys is a very clever person and it doesn't take any special wisdom or powers to have a solid guess about which henchmen of Tywin Lannister would be sent to massacre two children and their mother, could it possibly be the most ruthless of them all? And Amory Lorch doesn't strike me as man intelligent enough to tell one baby from, another neither of which he had ever seen before. 

As for why only Aegon was saved, there are ten thousand scenarios that can explain that. I'm not saying Aegon is 100% real, but come on, the fact that Rhaenys wasn't saved does by no means excludes the possibility that Aegon was. 

Varys had no power over Elia? Did he need power? Your Grace, I can save your son, here's a pretend babe to fool your enemies. No, go away, I don't want my son to survive, he should stay and die with me. That sounds very very very logical and realistic. 

To be honest, Aegon can be real as much as he can be fake. He is whatever GRRM wants him to be regardless of any scientific and textual evidence people can come up with to support either possibility. 

 

 

And yes, you might be. I won't eat candy I don't like. Isn't the point of candy to taste good? Why would I eat something that's bad for me AND doesn't taste good. 

 

Am I the only one around here who wonders what Euron's role in the show will be? 

 

[Annara Snow]

Probably not, but I couldn't care less about the show in general.

Re: some more about Aegon:

1) That's really pushing it. You are now really arguing that Varys was able to predict exactly who would come for Aegon and Rhaenys, how they would act and what exactly they would do. C'mon, seriously.

2) "Can you save my daughter as well?"

3) The more I think about it all, the entire baby switch thing becomes even less plausible. Just think about it. Aegon was not some random baby, he was the crown prince's only son at the time, the future heir to the throne. When Rhaegar was killed, he became heir presumptive. Realistically, any child from the royal family, but especially Aegon, was going to be constantly surrounded by a bunch of people - nurses, maesters, wet nurses, septons/septas, guards, courtiers - watching for his safety and health. Varys would have had to have all those people in his pocket - literally every person, to even be able to smuggle Aegon out and get another baby in without anyone noticing or reporting it. He'd have to be sure no one would report it to Aerys, so Aerys would not turn Varys into barbecue; that Pycelle would never come anywhere near Aegon or would be completely unperceptive and neglectful and not report anything to Tywin (really unlikely) and that Tywin also had no one else working for him at court who could alert him; that there were no other people working for any other of the players; in short, Varys basically had to have 100% control of Aerys' court to even try to pull it off. Seems way too much even for Varys.

AITOOAH who does not pronounce "Lysa" as "Lie-sa"?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Yes, you may be. Even GRRM pronounces it that way, and his pronunciations are usually not the same as what most readers use (except for easy ones like Ned).

 

AITOOAHW has some sympathy for Gregor's migraines? Not for his behavior, his actions, or anything else about him, but damn migraines can be horrible!

[Annara Snow]

Err... I can symathize a tiny bit? But very little, considering everything else about him. 

Are you saying GRRM proununces it as Lie-sa? I was just listening to an episode of Close the Door and Come Here podcast, and they kept pronouncing it as Lie-sa, but they said the exact opposite, that GRRM does not prounounce it that way.

Along similar lines, AITOOAH who does not prounounce Mya Stone's name as "Maya"? I was also surprised to hear podcasters prounounce it that way. It seems more likely to prounonce it as Mia. If she was called Maya, why wouldn't GRRM just spell it "Maya". 

[RhaenysBee]

No, I pronounce it Mia too, and I pronounce Lysa like L-I-sa.  (But it's L-ie-Anna and Eh-lie-ah, not L-I-Anna and Eel-I-ah) Lots of character names are pronounced randomly by people. I still don't know if the Targ ae is A or E, because I say R-A-ghar and A-gon but I say D-E-neris and E-ris. I also say BrAhn(don)and not Bren(don) even though I hear a lot of people calling Bran Bren. 

Re FAegon - I'm not saying he predicted anything but assuming it would Gregor isn't such a wild guess. In any case, this whole issue comes down to detail, do we know enough objective details to confirm either? No. We don't. We can argue for both options. I can argue for both options too. It's completely open to either way and that's probably what I would want as an author too, to have the freedom to take it another way if I want. 

 

Am I the only one around here who doesn't think there's a "correct" way to pronounce characters' names unless they are actual words? (In one interview someone asked GRRM if damphair was to be pronounced like dam-ph-air, ph as in metaphor even though that's damp_hair)

[Count Balerion]

Damfair? Weird, but if he says so ... I doubt there's a single way to pronounce them, too. Although I use "ee" for all those names above: MEE-uh, Lee-sa (I hedge on her, though), EE-lee-a, lee-AN-na.

Re wheel: I never said it made sense (it's a bit of a crapshoot on that show whether normal logic applies to anything); I only said I didn't hate it. I might decide it's rubbish later; who knows.

Speaking of which:

Am I the only one who didn't hate Talisa? At least not right away. I saw the first two seasons before reading the books, and found Jeyne Westerling rather colourless. But then I realized that Robb's character had been horribly messed up in the show. In the books, he had at least some reason for stiffing the Freys; in the show, it was only "because i want to, and hey ma you just did that stupid thing [and it was rather stupid] with Jaime, so hey, whatever, I'm gonna throw a teen tantrum cuz considerin consequences iz f0r lam0rz". It's subtler in the books. I still don't really hate Talisa as such--only what she did to Robb's characterization.

 

[RhaenysBee]

No, I know at least one person who liked Talisa, but then my sister's GoT opinions are not to be trusted. I personally don't like her at all , she is a generic wannabe-strong female character, and everything is wrong with her. I thought Jeyne was much better. 

 

Am I the only one around here who is glad there wasn't a lady stoneheart plot in the show? 

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

I was hoping there would be one, because I really like both Cat as well as the lady playing her, Michelle Fairley. But now, I'm happy there isn't, because I'm sure they wouldn't have handled the plot well.

One big problem with the "Aegon is real" theory is that - Varys is not prescient; he couldn't have predicted if baby Aegon was going to die, much less how (with the head smashed in). That's primarily one of the reasons why Varys is able to pull off this whole Young Griff plan. Let's say Elia and the kids hadn't died in the Sack - they would have been taken hostage by the rebel forces and the children would probably have been forced to live in KL their whole life or some such. So Varys being able to predict Aegon's death and thus switching only him (and not the other kid as well, why?) with some infant from Flea Bottom does not make sense IMO.

I'm willing to bet Varys came up with the plan only after the sack of KL. The two best players of the game, LF and Varys, are actually masters at improvising, adapting and taking advantage of situations as they arise, rather than some long drawn out plan (see: Doran Martell)

 

AITOOAH who did not believe Tywin's words to Tyrion saying that he never intended Elia to die? I felt he was lying through his teeth and wouldn't have passed up an opportunity to "punish" Elia for taking the "rightful" place of his daughter Cersei by marrying Rhaegar (true to his extremely vindictive nature.)

[Raisin' Bran]

You are not even close to being alone. Tywin was obviously lying through his teeth when presenting his "story" to his son. Tyrion may have spilled the beans if he were to admit the truth to the Martells. Tywin already knew that Tyrion meant to provide the Martells with justice in the form of Gregor's head, and that Tyrion wanted CR. If he were to give Tyrion ammunition to use against him, then the Martells could work to install Tyrion as Lord of CR once Tywin was delt with.

Am I the only one around here who likes to look up references in the books to include something witty in forum posts, even if a quote is far from necessary?

[RhaenysBee]

Yes. 

 

Am I the only one around here who wonders if Sam lost all the weight in the books? Because we know he didn't on the show. And people keep asking how he can still be fat. I'm wondering if he is still fat in the books too. I suppose he is. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I haven't seen that mentioned before, so you may be the only one.

I think it was Annara above who said she thought GRRM pronounces Lysa as Lee-sa. Could be I had that one wrong. I thought I saw Lie-sa on an official list of how GRRM pronounces various names, as opposed to how they do them on the show. 

For me it's LIE-suh, EHL-ee-uh or AY-lee-uh if I'm in Spanish mode, Lee-ANN-uh (though George days say Lie-ANN-uh), and MY-uh. But The George did say (and I know I've got this one right) that people can pronounce them any way they want to...so we're all good.

AITOOAHW still has not seen season six of the show?

[Annara Snow]

No, you're not the only one. I stopped watching the show after episode 3 of season 5.

@Little Scribe of Naath And Ned could have very easily gotten to King's Landing before Tywin. It's implied that Ned arrived mere hours after the sack. In which case, there would've been a battle - Aerys would not have opened the gates to Ned - but no sack, Ned would not have allowed it, and obviously no child murder. Aerys being fooled by Pycelle into thinking Tywin was friendly is also something you couldn't be sure would happen. In that case, there could have been a battle or a siege, and Ned would likely have arrived before Tywin could overtake the city, and both armies would have been in front of the gates. I'm not sure what would have happened, lots of variables to consider.

Am I the only one around here who thinks that Ned would have been a lot more understanding and wouldn't judge Jaime for killing Aerys, if circumstances of him learning of it had been different, and if he had more information? There was no reason for Ned, with the info he had, to assume Jaime's act was anything but a part of the same planned Lannister takeover. He had just seen and been disgusted by what Tywin's forces had done in the city, he either had just learned or would learn about the murder of Rhaegar's children by Tywin's goons, and then he finds Jaime sitting on the IT and smirking after killing Aerys. And wasn't in Jaime's head to know about his moral dilemmas about witnessing Aerys' atrocities (the show had Jaime trying to justify himself to Ned and talking about the awful murder/execution of Rickard and Brandon, but he never talked to Ned about it in the books) and, since Jaime was too proud to offer an explanation and pegged Ned as a judgmental type, he had no idea why Jaime would wait for that moment to act against Aerys, unless he was acting in accordance with Tywin's plan. I think he would not only certainly approve if he had known about the wildfire, but he would also be more sympathetic to Jaime if he knew that Aerys had ordered Jaime to directly kill his father.

People in universe who don't know Ned well (like Jaime) sonetimes see him as cold, rigid and judgmental, like another Stannis, but we know that he was actually ready to break rules and "dishonor" hinself in the eyes of the people in order to protect the innocent or save those he loved (lying to Robert and everyone about Jon, giving Cersei a chance to save her children, falsely confessing to treason to save Sansa). And since we were in his head, we know he even had a degree of empathy for Cersei and Jaime, even for something as awful as trying to kill his son Bran, because he was wondering to himself how far he or Cat would go if they had to protect their children. 

[RhaenysBee]

Umm, no, obviously everybody sees things differently once they have more information and become familiar with context and reasons. Having said that, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference in terms of the relationship between Jaime and Ned. yes, Ned might have had a stroke of empathy for Jaime but it wouldn't have changed the fact that they are sworn enemies and don't like each other. But if we are at Jaime, a better question is: 

 

am I the only one around here who is now a little confused about how all the moral dilemmas of betraying his king, killing his own father, letting the king burn the whole city, having his father slaughter the whole city, watching the king burn people and go mad and be abusive to his wife show in the shape of a smug smirk while perching on the iron throne? I mean this young man has seen so much and had to make such difficult decisions (among which was NOT telling the new rulers of king's landing to get rid of vast stashes of explosive under the city) and he smirks? What is anybody supposed to think?