Why Tolkien is not coddling his readers, why Tolkien is awesome

[Yukle]

Yes, agreed with both @Jo498 and @Roose Boltons Pet Leech; I didn't suggest otherwise, although rereading my earlier comment I realise that it kind of comes across as such.

I think the Elves try to live as part of nature, not beside it. Certainly, their construction of items as mundane as barrels suggests that they certainly use trees for logging.

Yet their forests remain - which heavily implies that they have always replenished what they've used. For them industry on a large, clear-felling scale is an abomination. They're not the devout tree guardians, like the Ents, but nor do they build as humanity does. Rivendell seems to be a city, of sorts, but it's not as large as Gondor.

I think they use magic for the same purposes that humanity uses electricity. It also allows them to keep nature in a much more untouched than otherwise possible. I haven't read it in a while but I did flick through the Silmarrilion just then - do they actually mine their metals? It's never really said, as such, from what I recall, how they get them.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

49 minutes ago, Yukle said:

Yes, agreed with both @Jo498 and @Roose Boltons Pet Leech; I didn't suggest otherwise, although rereading my earlier comment I realise that it kind of comes across as such.

I think the Elves try to live as part of nature, not beside it. Certainly, their construction of items as mundane as barrels suggests that they certainly use trees for logging.

Yet their forests remain - which heavily implies that they have always replenished what they've used. For them industry on a large, clear-felling scale is an abomination. They're not the devout tree guardians, like the Ents, but nor do they build as humanity does. Rivendell seems to be a city, of sorts, but it's not as large as Gondor.

I think they use magic for the same purposes that humanity uses electricity. It also allows them to keep nature in a much more untouched than otherwise possible. I haven't read it in a while but I did flick through the Silmarrilion just then - do they actually mine their metals? It's never really said, as such, from what I recall, how they get them.

The existence of large scale stone constructions like Ethel Sirion, Gondolin, Menegroth, Himring, Eregion, the cities of the Falas, the Grey Havens, Vinyamar, and The Elvish caves in Mirkwood, certainty suggest the Elves mine.  How else do they have enough stone to build with?

[Yukle]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The existence of large scale stone constructions like Ethel Sirion, Gondolin, Menegroth, Himring, Eregion, the cities of the Falas, the Grey Havens, Vinyamar, and The Elvish caves in Mirkwood, certainty suggest the Elves mine.  How else do they have enough stone to build with?

Yeah... but it never really says where their stuff comes from. I suppose there's no reason to consider why not mining, it's just I'm certain that there are explicit mentions of mines operated by humans, dwarves, orcs and goblins but never Elves. Perhaps it's not really an important point, or perhaps they... shape stones without needing to dig them up? Trade for them?

Not sure why this point even intrigues me much.

[Jo498]

Not sure if there is sufficient info in the earlier/posthumous writings to give a clear impression what the 1st and 2nd age Elvish cities look like. The exceptional closeness to nature in the case of the Mirkwood and the Lorien Elves at the end of the 3rd age seems not the way of the earlier ages where there is no indication that Elvish settlements were usually/always in woods and in close harmony with nature, Thingol's Realm seems more like an exception than typical. And Nargothrond (caves in a mountain) is probably an exception in the other direction. OTOH it also seems obvious that the Elves always detested the quasi-industrial exploitation of nature (dark satanic mills etc.) and had a milder way to get their ressources in a less violent fashion.

[Lord Varys]

It is true that Elves effectively should have all the industry and the craftsmanship required to build large cities and maintain their population, etc., but one also has to point out and realize that Tolkien never touches upon those things in the story. Thus the Elves live in some sort of limbo between 'the real world' and an ethereal magical realm. That is especially the case in TLotR with Lórien and to a lesser degree in 'The Hobbit' with the Wood-elves there.

The Silmarillion fails to actually describe a lot of the Elven realms in detail aside from the fact that they had cities, fortresses, and towers of one sort or another, but we never see how they built them.

As to Feanor:

The whole fall of the Noldor plot is very poorly executed, actually. There is no reason why the Valar should shut everybody out after the Noldor have left (what have the Sindar or the Atani to do with Feanor and the Kin-slaying?!) nor does it make any sense that the Powers of the World should allow Morgoth to set himself up as King of Middle-earth for centuries. Why do they do that? There is some metaphysical speculation about this in MR (the whole thing about Beleriand being or becoming Morgoth's Ring) but this is an idea that never actually enters into the Silmarillion as it was written and re-written.

In fact, the whole story of Eärendil - originally at the core and the finale of the myth-cycle - is completely pointless if the whole thing wasn't a punishment and the Valar don't really need a messenger speaking for Elves and Men to soften their hearts and finally decide to do something about Morgoth. I mean, if I already know stuff (like Manwe certainly would) I don't need a messenger for information. Eärendil is irrelevant in that role. Thus his only function would be to wake compassion for the people in Middle-earth in the hearts of the Valar - but if they already felt that but couldn't do anything about Morgoth then he actually could have stayed at home.

But I got carried away.

Feanor as a character ends up completely on the evil side of things in my opinion and I think there is a moment in the story before the Kin-slaying and the burning of the ships (another deplorable act and I really like the version of the story where he kills his own son in the flames) where this is revealed. When the Two Trees are killed the Valar ask for the Silmaril so that Yavanna can revive them but Feanor refuses. He shows his true colors there. He is a possessive person who cannot part from things he has created. In and of itself that would perhaps not be so bad but all he did was just steal the light of the Trees and make a permanent cage or vessel for it. He didn't create the light himself. His presumption that the stones are his is just as presumptuous as the idea that a company making paper (or ebook readers) owns all the content printed their paper or stored on the devices. That doesn't make much sense.

Feanor may not have served Melkor but he was still his best instrument in ruining the Noldor and the bliss of the Blessed Realm. He was a fool to listen to him and the entirety of this movement to go back to Middle-earth comes from Melkor. 

If Tolkien wanted the Silmaril to be really unique creations Feanor should have done something more than just store the light of the Trees in those gems.

[Slurktan]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

The whole fall of the Noldor plot is very poorly executed, actually. There is no reason why the Valar should shut everybody out after the Noldor have left (what have the Sindar or the Atani to do with Feanor and the Kin-slaying?!) nor does it make any sense that the Powers of the World should allow Morgoth to set himself up as King of Middle-earth for centuries. Why do they do that? There is some metaphysical speculation about this in MR (the whole thing about Beleriand being or becoming Morgoth's Ring) but this is an idea that never actually enters into the Silmarillion as it was written and re-written.

In fact, the whole story of Eärendil - originally at the core and the finale of the myth-cycle - is completely pointless if the whole thing wasn't a punishment and the Valar don't really need a messenger speaking for Elves and Men to soften their hearts and finally decide to do something about Morgoth. I mean, if I already know stuff (like Manwe certainly would) I don't need a messenger for information. Eärendil is irrelevant in that role. Thus his only function would be to wake compassion for the people in Middle-earth in the hearts of the Valar - but if they already felt that but couldn't do anything about Morgoth then he actually could have stayed at home.

 

You seem to be of the assumption that the Valar are "good".  They aren't. They are fickle just like the Gods in Norse stories or Greek Mythology.  You ask why the Valar shut out the Sindar and the Atani.  For the Sindar they refused to come to Valinor when they had the chance, and now they are helping the Noldor so to put it bluntly Fuck them.  As for the Atani, Men are not allowed in Valinor period, and they had already tried to steer Men; Orome went out there but the majority rather listened to Morgoth. So fuck them too.  The only one that actively tries to help the Edain and Sindar and the like is Ulmo and he breaks the rules to do this.

As to why they don't go kick out Morgoth: To do so means they will smash at least part of the world putting their power down and they don't like doing that.  It happened after the lamps and it happened when they destroyed Utumno, (also happens to Beleriand obviously when the decide to move).  They smashed Utumno in order for the Elves to be free, they couldn't do the same for the Atani because there were Elves living there already.

Earendil's story is necessary because the Valar were perfectly fine with Morgoth crushing, humiliating, and destroying the Noldor and their allies.  For the Elves it's probably a bit of "who cares, they are coming the Mandos when they die regardless, so fuck Middle Earth" and as stated already Men had seemingly been corrupted.  But Earendil then comes and tells them about the heroics of the Edain(for those who likely wouldn't know them or care such as Tulkas, Mandos, Yavenna) and that's what moves them to action.  If they do nothing the Edain will be wiped out, and their sacrifices to try and fight Morgoth showed them worthy. Earendil isn't a messenger but rather a pilgrim supplicating for mercy for the Edain.

[The Marquis de Leech]

While we're at it, Feanor refusing to break the Silmarils is regrettable but understandable. He's invested his very essence in these jewels, and can never replace them. If he breaks them, he breaks himself.

There's also the point that this is asking the Children of Iluvatar to essentially fix one of the Valar's own screw-ups (Feanor didn't ask for Melkor's release!).

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Slurktan said:

You seem to be of the assumption that the Valar are "good".  They aren't. They are fickle just like the Gods in Norse stories or Greek Mythology.  You ask why the Valar shut out the Sindar and the Atani.  For the Sindar they refused to come to Valinor when they had the chance, and now they are helping the Noldor so to put it bluntly Fuck them.  As for the Atani, Men are not allowed in Valinor period, and they had already tried to steer Men; Orome went out there but the majority rather listened to Morgoth. So fuck them too.  The only one that actively tries to help the Edain and Sindar and the like is Ulmo and he breaks the rules to do this.

You have somewhat right there insofar as the Valar of the Lost Tales are concerned. Those are very much modeled after Norse gods. But later on Manwe becomes the Elder King of Arda, the guy who represents Eru Ilúvatar in the world. Unless you would like to say the god JRRT is also not supposed to be good, Manwe most definitely is imagined as very good. Not to mention that some 'Elder King in exile' (i.e. a guy only ruling in Aman and leaving the rest of the world for Morgoth and his creatures) is actually no king at all.

I mean, just check Tolkien's writings as to why Manwe felt he had to release Melkor - in his ultimate goodness he could not see that Melkor was deceiving him because he does not understand evil, at least no in his heart.

Such a person acting the way the story of the Silmaril dictates makes little sense.

The Atani being tempted by Melkor is also partially the guilt of the Valar because they left Middle-earth long before they came.

2 hours ago, Slurktan said:

As to why they don't go kick out Morgoth: To do so means they will smash at least part of the world putting their power down and they don't like doing that.  It happened after the lamps and it happened when they destroyed Utumno, (also happens to Beleriand obviously when the decide to move).  They smashed Utumno in order for the Elves to be free, they couldn't do the same for the Atani because there were Elves living there already.

That is the rationale Tolkien later gives - but then, they shouldn't they have been able to seize Morgoth much quicker while he hadn't yet built Thangorodrim and bred (winged) dragons to defend his abode?

But the main problem I see there is not so much them doing nothing (the 'Morgoth's Ring justification' is not so bad, after all) but them shutting everybody out - including the Sindar, who still had the right to come to Valinor as Elves who had begun the Great Journey. That is just petty and irresponsible. And if you read the earliest version of that tale it essentially is the Valar and Eldar in Valinor simply being petty - they just don't want anybody evil ever coming here to destroy their private paradise.

2 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Earendil's story is necessary because the Valar were perfectly fine with Morgoth crushing, humiliating, and destroying the Noldor and their allies.  For the Elves it's probably a bit of "who cares, they are coming the Mandos when they die regardless, so fuck Middle Earth" and as stated already Men had seemingly been corrupted.  But Earendil then comes and tells them about the heroics of the Edain(for those who likely wouldn't know them or care such as Tulkas, Mandos, Yavenna) and that's what moves them to action.  If they do nothing the Edain will be wiped out, and their sacrifices to try and fight Morgoth showed them worthy. Earendil isn't a messenger but rather a pilgrim supplicating for mercy for the Edain.

Well, it is very much a pointless pilgrimage considering that Manwe must have both the information as well as the knowledge to predict what he is going to say.

2 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

While we're at it, Feanor refusing to break the Silmarils is regrettable but understandable. He's invested his very essence in these jewels, and can never replace them. If he breaks them, he breaks himself.

I know that this is the rationale but considering the fact that he did not paint the picture but merely framed it - he made a permanent cage for the light of the Trees which wasn't his own - I don't think this holds that much water. The Silmaril may have been marvelous gemstones but they were still just gemstones, and the Two Trees were most definitely a much greater piece of art than those stones. His own personal feelings should not matter more than the happiness of the people of Aman.

2 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

There's also the point that this is asking the Children of Iluvatar to essentially fix one of the Valar's own screw-ups (Feanor didn't ask for Melkor's release!).

No, because the Children would never be able to fix that particular issue. Melkor-Morgoth is too strong for them, period. That is why Thingol and Melian never participate in the futile war against Morgoth.

[The Marquis de Leech]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I know that this is the rationale but considering the fact that he did not paint the picture but merely framed it - he made a permanent cage for the light of the Trees which wasn't his own - I don't think this holds that much water. The Silmaril may have been marvelous gemstones but they were still just gemstones, and the Two Trees were most definitely a much greater piece of art than those stones. His own personal feelings should not matter more than the happiness of the people of Aman.

This is the single greatest non-divine creative accomplishment in the history of Arda. You are asking the most skilled person who ever lived to destroy his life's work. Two Trees or not, I can understand Feanor's sentiment.

Quote

No, because the Children would never be able to fix that particular issue. Melkor-Morgoth is too strong for them, period. That is why Thingol and Melian never participate in the futile war against Morgoth.

Sorry, you misinterpreted me. I meant that Feanor was being asked to break the Silmarils, to restore the Trees. The Trees were destroyed because the Valar screwed-up - yet Feanor is the one being guilt-tripped here.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

This is the single greatest non-divine creative accomplishment in the history of Arda. You are asking the most skilled person who ever lived to destroy his life's work. Two Trees or not, I can understand Feanor's sentiment.

I understand it, too. But it is petty, and that is Tolkien's view of it. Feanor fails the same way Turgon failed. He became too obsessed with the works of his own hands - in Feanor's case some stones, in Turgon's case the city he built.

Keep in mind that Tuor comes to Gondolin before the Fall of Doriath. Ulmo's plan might have been that Tuor and Dior meet each other go together to Valinor to ask for help. But because Turgon remained behind there was a Second and Third Kin-slaying (something that would never have happened had the Elves of Gondolin been with Dior and his children at that time.

Also keep in mind what happened to Maedhros and Maglor in the end - they could no longer touch the precious stones of their father. Do you think Feanor himself could have after what he did to the Falmari? I don't think so.

I think that is a pretty concrete judgment within the story itself whether Feanor (and his sons continuing his mission) were in any sense justified in his sentiments.

Art is a important thing for Tolkien but it is not more important than the lives of other people. Not to mention that Feanor was Melkor's best instrument of destruction considering that he bought all his lies about the Valar being at least in part as petty and selfish as his was.

I'm not laying the blame completely at his feet, though. The man was born under wrong circumstances, having to suffer an unnatural father who took a second wife, defying the laws of nature. Finwe's desire to have more sons, to not be content with being the father of the great Feanor clearly is the rot at the heart of this entire thing - at least in Tolkien's mind. This is actually a pretty interesting and captivating way to create an unruly character and it is a pity that most of this is never really addressed in the Silmarillion. The gravity of this second marriage thing only comes to light when you know that they Elves never do such a thing.

By the way: Does anybody know what he thought about Christopher's second marriage?

[SeanF]

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

As to Feanor:

The whole fall of the Noldor plot is very poorly executed, actually. There is no reason why the Valar should shut everybody out after the Noldor have left (what have the Sindar or the Atani to do with Feanor and the Kin-slaying?!) nor does it make any sense that the Powers of the World should allow Morgoth to set himself up as King of Middle-earth for centuries. Why do they do that? There is some metaphysical speculation about this in MR (the whole thing about Beleriand being or becoming Morgoth's Ring) but this is an idea that never actually enters into the Silmarillion as it was written and re-written.

In fact, the whole story of Eärendil - originally at the core and the finale of the myth-cycle - is completely pointless if the whole thing wasn't a punishment and the Valar don't really need a messenger speaking for Elves and Men to soften their hearts and finally decide to do something about Morgoth. I mean, if I already know stuff (like Manwe certainly would) I don't need a messenger for information. Eärendil is irrelevant in that role. Thus his only function would be to wake compassion for the people in Middle-earth in the hearts of the Valar - but if they already felt that but couldn't do anything about Morgoth then he actually could have stayed at home.

But I got carried away.

 

It depends whether you want something that matches Catholic theology, or something that makes a good story.

The Valar (as presented) are capricious, sometimes benevolent to mortals and Elves, sometimes completely indifferent to them, sometimes vindictive.  Or possibly, their plans, and Eru's plans are so complex and unfold over such a long timescale, that Elves and mortals cannot understand them.  They resemble the Gods of Classical mythology. 

Tolkien started by wanting to tell a good story, and then tried to match it up with his theological beliefs, which he couldn't manage.  But, I still enjoy stories in which Gods or Angels are not benevolent.

[TrackerNeil]

7 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

While we're at it, Feanor refusing to break the Silmarils is regrettable but understandable. He's invested his very essence in these jewels, and can never replace them. If he breaks them, he breaks himself.

There's also the point that this is asking the Children of Iluvatar to essentially fix one of the Valar's own screw-ups (Feanor didn't ask for Melkor's release!).

Agreed, and it should be pointed out that Feanor was actually more grieved by the news of Finwe's death than the theft of the Silmarils. I seem to recall the line was something like "and what sons have held their fathers of greater worth?"

I think the Valar really mucked up the whole Silmaril affair, and it's nice that, by the Third Age, they seemed to realize that direct intervention in the lives of the Children was something they just couldn't manage very well. 

[The Marquis de Leech]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I understand it, too. But it is petty, and that is Tolkien's view of it. Feanor fails the same way Turgon failed. He became too obsessed with the works of his own hands - in Feanor's case some stones, in Turgon's case the city he built.

Keep in mind that Tuor comes to Gondolin before the Fall of Doriath. Ulmo's plan might have been that Tuor and Dior meet each other go together to Valinor to ask for help. But because Turgon remained behind there was a Second and Third Kin-slaying (something that would never have happened had the Elves of Gondolin been with Dior and his children at that time.

No question that falling in love with material things/your own works is portrayed negatively in Tolkien - my point is that, while wrong, it is still something that is deeply understandable. If it were an easy choice, it wouldn't make for a good story.

While we're at it, Galadriel succeeded where Feanor and Turgon failed: she really was prepared to give it all up, despite the millennia of emotional investment.

(On the Maedhros and Maglor front, this actually comes back to their final debate. Would the Silmarils have still burnt them if, as per Maglor's argument, they had gone back to Valinor, atoned for their actions, and eventually received the jewels back? As opposed to stealing them then and there, as per Maedhros, for fear that they would never get them back in Valinor? Or could they only ever have made the choice they did, given the cruelty of the Oath?)

[Slurktan]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You have somewhat right there insofar as the Valar of the Lost Tales are concerned. Those are very much modeled after Norse gods. But later on Manwe becomes the Elder King of Arda, the guy who represents Eru Ilúvatar in the world. Unless you would like to say the god JRRT is also not supposed to be good, Manwe most definitely is imagined as very good. Not to mention that some 'Elder King in exile' (i.e. a guy only ruling in Aman and leaving the rest of the world for Morgoth and his creatures) is actually no king at all.

I mean, just check Tolkien's writings as to why Manwe felt he had to release Melkor - in his ultimate goodness he could not see that Melkor was deceiving him because he does not understand evil, at least no in his heart.

I'm not sure how to break up quotes and this board doesn't like being fucked with (I've had multiple posts eaten just cause) so  forgive me for kind of responding in a bunch.

 Eru isn't "good".  Eru is God.  Eru is everything, good, bad, grey.  Eru allows Melkor to warp the music, and doesn't just start over.  He allows Melkor/Morgoth to do everything he does.  At any point Eru could have blown up Beleriand or all of Arda like he did to Numenor. Eru honestly doesn't intervene with what goes on in Arda except in one instance.  Eru does come in when the Valar tell him they want to stop the Numenoreans but know that if they fight them in Valinor, Valinor will likely be destroyed by their power like Utumno and Beleriand previously, So they plea to Eru, and Eru essentially says "You fucked up but sure" but then changes their plans, sinks Numenor, and removes Valinor from the world, breaks and remakes the world (It's not just valinor and numenor being gone that gets changed) killing untold numbers of men, dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Trolls, Ents, whatever that aren't Numenorean and have nothing to do with the Rebellion.  Eru doesn't give a shit about details like that because he's not good.  He's essentially old testament God.

You have pointed out some things in the past from LOTR and the Hobbit as Ex Machina that supposedly come from Eru.  That seems doubtful, more likely it's Manwe, Ulmo, or Varda because the Valar have changed how they operate.  In the first age they actively do nothing but essentially party in Valinor because they are portrayed as pretty petty dickheads; they then save the world because a neutral party enters the fray which they feel pity for.  In the Second Age they don't want to police the world, so they give the Edain the tools to do that for them, kind of.  By kind of, they tell them that they are the best of the new world and are gifted and are awesome, but "don't even dare think about coming west cause you ain't shit compared to us." That in the end is what makes the Numenoreans turn against them.  Eru then takes Valinor away from the rest of Earth so they try something different this time.  They try to inspire things from the various peoples and most of the time get the faithful rewarded when they show it.  Whether it be in miracles, timely interventions, etc even if their vessal may get destroyed (such as Gandalf).  In the third age they are essentially New Testament God/Jesus.

So to go back to what you said, Manwe is the disputed King of Arda (Melkor also claims this and Eru doesn't say no).  He's not really an agent of Eru because Eru gave them free will to do what they want; Eru doesn't interfere.  You make the statement that if Manwe was King of the World he should care about the rest of the world.  But to go back to my previous statement in the first age he's like a Greek God.  Zeus was also King of the world.  Zeus also didn't give a rat's ass about anything besides where he was at.  You also make the statement that Manwe doesn't understand evil which is accurate but of course evil and good are two sides of the same coin.  If you don't understand one, how can you understand the other?  So at the time of Melkors release, Manwe isn't good or bad, he just is.  He later changes his perspective and becomes good because he by that point knows evil.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Tolkien essays continued, this time looking at Gondor:

https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2016/11/17/of-j-r-r-tolkien-and-status-quos-part-vii/

[Hereward]

Fantastic essay! I'd also note that the influx of the Northmen from Rhovanion and the granting of Calenardhon to the Rohirrim are both presented positively, while the conservative reaction to the former is the cause of disaster and the turning towards evil of those who will not accept change, and the latter would have been anathema to conservatives who wanted Gondor to remain unchanged and undivided.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Good point. I was actually saving the Gondor/Northman thing for the eventual essay on racism, but one thing that does now occur to me - the Tomb of Elendil. Cirion (a mere Steward) not only hands over a large chunk of the realm, but moves Elendil's remains out of the hallowed tomb, and moves them to Minas Tirith. Basically, Cirion declares Isildur's tradition void in order to give effect to his agreement with the Rohirrim.

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Tolkien essays continued, this time looking at Gondor:

https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2016/11/17/of-j-r-r-tolkien-and-status-quos-part-vii/

A very good essay.

In terms of political and military power, I'd say Gondor was like Byzantium in about 1150, not Byzantium in 1453.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Another continuation of the critique of TrackerNeil's article:

https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2016/12/09/of-j-r-r-tolkien-and-status-quos-part-viii/

[C.T. Phipps]

It should be noted that Eru is GoodTM but he's a Higher Good than humans can really operate on due to being omniscient and also he gets the morality-out in that Eru is willing to allow evil to happen for the greater good--which is the controversial defense of evil in real life by those who wish to deal with the Problem of Evil (albeit, in RL, good and evil aren't that easy to fix either -- even with hypothetical omniscience).

The Valar are good in a similarly awesome way but they're flawed in the fact they do not have omniscience or necessarily make good decisions. They can also be corrupted.

And yes, excellent essay.