10k Golden company vs 15k Stormlanders

[Stormking902]

I thinks its unrealistic that the SL are so thrown out of wack and weak from the WO5K when in reality they didnt lose a great deal of troops, lets say the SL have 30k army thats really low balling it but 30k. 

 

Lets say they maybe lost 10k possibly 15k buh I highly doubt it in the war, so that leaves 15k army at least to defend the SL that are NO where to be found. Lets say in my scenario the SL actually mount a proper defense against the GC, do the GC defeat them? Or are they thrown back into the sea like I realalistically believe they would. 

[The Grey Wolf]

30K is reasonable for the Stormlands. More than Dorne but less than the rest of the 7K barring the Iron Isles and the Crownlands. Also, the reason they're getting their asses kicked is because they're divided, the Golden Company is a professional fighting force hitting hard and fast several places in quick succession, and the Stormlanders have NO idea who the hell the Golden Company is fighting for.

Anyway, 10K Golden Company vs. 15K Stormlanders? GC 99 out of a 100 battles. They are again a professional fighting force with meritocratic (and therefore experienced) leadership, use combined-arms tactics (as opposed to Westerosi feudalism where each part of the army functions separately), are likely far more disciplined and experienced as a whole (fighting constantly in the Disputed Lands as opposed to Westeros), and they make use of the best of what Westeros has to offer (heavy cavalry) as well as Essos (elephants, heavy infantry, recurved bows).

[shmewdog]

Plus Stannis has a good deal of SL troops with him in the North, so unless they all gain the ability to fly they aren't getting down there in time to help.  He only left skeleton crews at DS and SE

[Canon Claude]

Let's assume that they can summon 30,000 at full strength. We also don't quite know how many men Renly had with him when he was on the march. The majority were from the Reach, but the number I've most seen bandied around relating to the Stormlords are 20,000. This makes sense, given that House Dondarrion didn't send anyone, while Houses Swann and Tarth only sent their heirs. And we can assume that other stormlords left at least some men behind rather than commit fully.

Of these 20,000, we know that many of them were in the cavalry commanded by Renly. His cavalry altogether was 20,000, stormlords and Reach alike. When Renly dies, Stannis gets around 16,000 of those men. The infantry are all at Bitterbridge and while Randyll Tarly does kill a number of them, most of them go home rather than join in the war anymore.

So let's say there are 8,000 Stormlanders with Stannis at Blackwater. We know that half of Stannis' men change sides when Tywin arrives, so let's assume they're the Reach lords. Several thousand of them die, while several thousands surrender and are spared. Stannis escapes with an army made up of 1500 men, over half of whom are Florents. There's also a scattering of stormlanders, but still, it's a small amount of men.

When it comes to the surviving Stormlords at Blackwater, we know they're mostly drafted to fight against Robb at Duskendale, or serve the Lannisters in other functions (Holy Hundred, Red Ronnet, etc.). Some of the nobles are also kept at King's Landing. This would explain why they aren't around to defend their territory.

Now I can buy that the stormlands are completely divided, what with Storm's End being loyal to Stannis, and is currently under siege, while several of the noble Houses are essentially leaderless. But I'm still surprised that the Golden Company can invade with five thousand men and lose less than twenty while taking multiple castles on Cape Wrath. Is nobody there to rally people? Even when the Starks were all gone, Ser Rodrik Cassel rallied 2,000 to his cause to liberate Winterfell. Is nobody able to summon the Dondarrion forces or the men who went home after Bitterbridge?

This is the big problem I have with the Golden Company's invasion. It seems to be going too smoothly.

Just now, The Grey Wolf said:

Anyway, 10K Golden Company vs. 15K Stormlanders? GC 99 out of a 100 battles. They are again a professional fighting force with meritocratic (and therefore experienced) leadership, use combined-arms tactics (as opposed to Westerosi feudalism where each part of the army functions separately), are likely far more disciplined and experienced as a whole (fighting constantly in the Disputed Lands as opposed to Westeros), and they make use of the best of what Westeros has to offer (heavy cavalry) as well as Essos (elephants, heavy infantry, recurved bows).

If they're so great, how did they lose against the Iron Throne as many times as they did?

[Stormking902]

I understand the dynamics of having noone to rally upon buh nothing rallies all houses like in invading army....... You wouldnt even need a Baratheon to rally the houses shit if a Swan or Tarth or Dondarrion or hell anyone raises there banners requestint help defending there lands from foriegn invaders you can bet your ass they will rally. The GC taking castle aftet castle with no losses is idiotic and makes no sense when u think about the function of a castle. 

[The Grey Wolf]

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

Text

The Golden Company fought in three of the Blackfyre Rebellions, the Third, the Fourth, and the Fifth.

We know next to nothing about the Third but given what little we know I'm willing to venture the rebellion was a serious threat to the Targaryens and that the Golden Company won many great victories before choking at the end, probably because the Blackfyres from the start always have less numbers and resources.

Concerning the Fourth, considering how short, abortive, and disastrous it was and Bittersteel is no fool I think this rebellion is the one where Torwyn Greyjoy betrayed Bittersteel by informing Aegon V about the Blackfyre landing site, hence, the Golden Company finding itself outmanuvered and outnumbered at the Battle of the Wendwater Bridge.

Concerning the Fifth, again, we have next to no information but considering that the Westerosi forces were hard-pressed for a time before Maelys died and that half a year of heavy fighting remained even after that point I'd say the Golden Company put up a really good fight.

Beyond that we don't know anything about their victories and defeats in Essos except that shortly after their creation they sacked Qohor (no mean feat) when it refused to honor its contract.

And as Lysono Maar in one of Arianne chapters in TWOW tells us there were many a close battle involving the GC so it definitely lives up to its reputation, the chief problem then being that we have so little information on the Blackfyre Rebellions themselves, which prevents in-depth analysis and discussion.

Finally, the Doylist answer would be "because GRRM needed them to lose".

As for GC casualties in the series, it isn't stated in ADWD that they didn't take casualties taking any of the castles. In fact apart from Griffin's Roost we don't know the numbers and casualties of any of the other castles taken if I'm not mistaken but if we use Griffin's Roost as a template then we can see why the casualties are low: Speed, deception, confusion, and the lack of someone like Ser Rodrik for the Stormlanders to rally behind.

Also, this isn't the first time GRRM has been iffy with castles. Tywin and Jaime taking castle after castle in the Riverlands in AGOT is way more implausible.

[Protagoras]

The Stormlands won´t be able to fight Aegon, nor will many want to do so. And they won´t have the time mounting a proper defence, even if they wanted to. The golden company arrived at the right place at the right time. Of course its going smootly.

They have switched sides in some cases up to three times already and are most likely tired of war. They have been forced to submit to the throne instead of their beloved Renly or Stannis. Then Aegons attack came (from a very, very professional force) and it came fast. Most of those lords didn´t have time to react (and mustering troops directly after a lost war should be harder than last time and takes time, even in the best of situations) and if they did, why should they fight Aegon unless they risk losing their castles (which they don´t since the army have bigger plans - whixh is starting to getting known). In addition - if they join Aegon, they might be rewarded after the war is over and will get to fight against a regime they have reason to hate. It remains to be seen how many Stormlanders Aegon will be able to attract.

Sure, the Stormlands have plenty of soldiers left, but standing soldiers cost money. That army they had have been split up, unequipped and without any unifying leader nor under orders to fight the invaders and as long as they are not provoked with, say lots of plundering or raping, they might not care as long as Aegons soldiers avoid messing with just their village or their lord.

[Wrl6199]

I would say that it seems like the golden company would win. I mean the storm-lands have obviously had it rough since the war of the five kings.

[The Lord Bastard]

I reckon Westeros is so war-torn that each Lord is only concerned about his own lands, and no one else's. Any one Lord who has fresh, unused levies is probably not going to help his neighbor. 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

the golden company are a very well organized and single minded marshal body and the stormlands suffered hard the past years, but if there is a region that is known for it's marshal prowess and fierce demenour (% wise of course, thre's demenour everywhere)... it's those badass stormtroopers who gave the 7K a ton of notorious warriors

that said, the GC has all the favours in the books present time, during Robert's reign the company wouldn´t even dare face the stormlords (word of jon con himself), let alone considering winning

[tugela]

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

30K is reasonable for the Stormlands. More than Dorne but less than the rest of the 7K barring the Iron Isles and the Crownlands. Also, the reason they're getting their asses kicked is because they're divided, the Golden Company is a professional fighting force hitting hard and fast several places in quick succession, and the Stormlanders have NO idea who the hell the Golden Company is fighting for.

Anyway, 10K Golden Company vs. 15K Stormlanders? GC 99 out of a 100 battles. They are again a professional fighting force with meritocratic (and therefore experienced) leadership, use combined-arms tactics (as opposed to Westerosi feudalism where each part of the army functions separately), are likely far more disciplined and experienced as a whole (fighting constantly in the Disputed Lands as opposed to Westeros), and they make use of the best of what Westeros has to offer (heavy cavalry) as well as Essos (elephants, heavy infantry, recurved bows).

What makes you think that the golden company is any different from the Westerosi? Medieval society was constantly at war. Not necessarily with a foreign army, but there would have been local disputes going on. Individual lords had their own private armies for a reason.

The sellsword companies are led by noblemen as well, so it is less meritocratic than you might think.

[The Grey Wolf]

6 minutes ago, tugela said:

What makes you think that the golden company is any different from the Westerosi? Medieval society was constantly at war. Not necessarily with a foreign army, but there would have been local disputes going on. Individual lords had their own private armies for a reason.

The sellsword companies are led by noblemen as well, so it is less meritocratic than you might think.

On the point of meritocracy: 1. It is still more based on merit than birth so that counts, 2. I think you're overestimating the number of Westerosi in leadership positions, Lysono, a Lyseni, is one of the three top commanders under the captain-general and Black Balaq from the Summer Isles leads the archers. Plus, its been almost a century since the GC was founded. By this point the Westerosi amongst them have become heavily interbreed with all manner of Essosi so they're really Westerosi only in name.

On what makes the Golden Company different. To sum it up they are a professional, almost modern in a sense, army. They are well-organized and well-disciplined. They have a clearly defined chain of command based primarily on merit. They use combined arms tactics (where each part of the army is trained to fight alongside the rest) in contrast to Westerosi feudalism where each noble leads his own men and armies are only loosely coordinated. For proof look at the description of their camp outside Volantis in the first JonCon chapter and at how they operate in the second JonCon chapter as well as the most recently released TWOW Arianne chapter.

As for war the difference is that every member of the Golden Company has been participant in constant fighting for years in the Disputed Lands whereas the armies of Westeros haven't seen any conflict prior to the series for nearly a decade and more importantly we don't hear of any feuds that would mitigate that, which wouldn't jive anyway with Robert's reign being one of peace and prosperity (at least on the surface).

You are correct that war was constant in the Middle Ages however. Just look at the number of rebellions and wars "little" England saw from William I the Conqueror to John I alone for example. Westeros, then, is a little unrealistic in that it uses the standard fantasy trope of "years of peace and prosperity" without anything really changing. I mean, look at the reign of Viserys I, twenty-six freaking years without war or rebellion and yet absolutely NOTHING changed! No roads were built, no sewers, no canals, no new government positions, no new laws, no chivalric orders, no new royal mints, no new towns or cities, nothing! In real-life that would NEVER happen. Hell, in real life all the Targaryen achievements could have been accomplished in a few years by a single Roman emperor who historians would see as lazy and underachieving. Seriously, the best they built were DIRT roads even though they came from freaking Valyria and thus knew that better roads could be built in stone.

[Bironic]

There is also a the fact that the SL dislike the Lannister alliance, and there are probably some Blackfyre supporters and Targ loyalists as well so they have no real reason to fight against the Golden Company, Jon Connington or Aegon.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

14 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

I understand the dynamics of having noone to rally upon buh nothing rallies all houses like in invading army....... You wouldnt even need a Baratheon to rally the houses shit if a Swan or Tarth or Dondarrion or hell anyone raises there banners requestint help defending there lands from foriegn invaders you can bet your ass they will rally. The GC taking castle aftet castle with no losses is idiotic and makes no sense when u think about the function of a castle. 

Only they don't brand themselves as "foreign invaders". Hey, it's Prince Aegon Targaryen, to regain his father's throne! His right hand man is Jon Connington, Lord of Griffin's Roost, our neighbor. They didn't come to the Stormlands to rape, pillage and plunder (at least not unless an actual war starts there), only as a stop on their way to King's Landing.

I imagine that your average stormlanders' motivation to heroically fight for the golden lion of House Lannister (as nobody kids himself that House Baratheon is actually the ruling house) would be mighty low in those circumstances. Think "Napoleon returns from Elba".

[chrisdaw]

They've lost before they've realised they're being invaded.

It's not their fault, it's the crown's duty to protect against an external invasion force of this nature, and a Master of Whisperer's to keep a tab on the possibility of such threats.

[Stormking902]

Essos is seperated from the East Coast of Westeros by the narrow sea key word "Narrow" any country that sits directly across from Essos (Vale and Stormlands and Dorne) would have spys and loyal vessals on the look out for any mention of an army invading Westeros. The fact that house Tarth for example has no idea of an attack is flawed IMO. Tarth whole function is to protect the SL from forign invaders ..... The GC are moving with 10k army and elephants your telling me not one lord in the SL heard whispers of am upcoming attack. To say o its Kings landings job to protect us is BS and no lord would think like this especially in a feudal society.

[devilish]

Stannis left a skeleton crew in the Stormlands. Probably most would either bend the knee (they are fed up playing fiddle to all Baratheon brothers) or they'll beg Tommen for support. He's a 'Baratheon' after all. 

[chrisdaw]

5 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Essos is seperated from the East Coast of Westeros by the narrow sea key word "Narrow" any country that sits directly across from Essos (Vale and Stormlands and Dorne) would have spys and loyal vessals on the look out for any mention of an army invading Westeros. The fact that house Tarth for example has no idea of an attack is flawed IMO. Tarth whole function is to protect the SL from forign invaders ..... The GC are moving with 10k army and elephants your telling me not one lord in the SL heard whispers of am upcoming attack. To say o its Kings landings job to protect us is BS and no lord would think like this especially in a feudal society.

So you're denying text because your favourite region has basically been offed.

ok

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

“Last year they were Robert’s men. A moon ago they were Renly’s. This morning they are yours. Whose will they be on the morrow?”

(The answer - Joffrey's, of course, but Davos didn't know that yet). You can have "the Golden Company surprised them", or "they bent the knee because that's what the Stormlords habitually do", your pick.

(By the way, the Narrow Sea isn't that narrow, it seems generally wider than the Med or the Baltic, not to mention the English Channel).

[Trigger Warning]

The castle of House Baratheon is under siege and Renly, their overlord has been killed with no real replacement. Rsentment for the crown is likely very high, chances are most of the lords of the Stormlands don't particularly care about the fall of some of their rival lords on the coast, with no one to rally them to chase off the invader why should they care. They are probably looking to their own individual defences so they can wait and see what happens.