Tales and Rumors as Foreshadowing?

[Seams]

I know of at least two lists of rumors, one from a Bran POV and one from Arya, that are lengthy and wide-ranging and strike me as likely to have deeper meaning. They are similar, in some ways, to the varied explanations for the meaning and import of the comet (flaming sword, dragons, Joffrey's ascension, etc.) or the fragments of stories that Bran relays to the reader when he sees the Nightfort for the first time. Just about every word in the books has two or three layers of meaning, at least. (If you are not interested, or don't believe, in literary analysis, it's best that you skip the rest of this post and move along without commenting.) So what do you make of these passages where GRRM serves up scuttlebutt and rumor?

. . . every traveler told a different tale, each more terrifying than the last. The heads of Father’s guardsmen were rotting on the walls of the Red Keep, impaled on spikes. King Robert was dead at Father’s hands. The Baratheons had laid siege to King’s Landing. Lord Eddard had fled south with the king’s wicked brother Renly. Arya and Sansa had been murdered by the Hound. Mother had killed Tyrion the Imp and hung his body from the walls of Riverrun. Lord Tywin Lannister was marching on the Eyrie, burning and slaughtering as he went. One winesodden taleteller even claimed that Rhaegar Targaryen had returned from the dead and was marshaling a vast host of ancient heroes on Dragonstone to reclaim his father’s throne.

(AGoT, Bran VI)

These are "tales" that reach Winterfell while Robb is still there, but after Ned has been imprisoned in King's Landing. On the surface, the tales do not accurately reflect the events of the plot but there are some grains of truth and a few bits of foreshadowing: Ned's guardsmen were killed. King Robert did die, but not by Ned's hand. Stannis will lay siege to King's Landing at a later date. Renly did flee the city, but he went east and did not take Eddard Stark along. Catelyn did take Tyrion prisoner but will take him to the Eyrie, not Riverrun. Lord Tywin's forces attacked the Riverlands, not the Eyrie.

Are any of these echoes of some of the legends and myths and tales of heroes we have heard elsewhere in the books?

Here's the Arya passage:

After that it was back to scrubbing and scurrying and listening at doors. Lord Tywin would soon march on Riverrun, she heard. Or he would drive south to Highgarden, no one would ever expect that. No, he must defend King's Landing, Stannis was the greatest threat. He'd sent Gregor Clegane and Vargo Hoat to destroy Roose Bolton and remove the dagger from his back. He'd sent ravens to the Eyrie, he meant to wed the Lady Lysa Arryn and win the Vale. He'd bought a ton of silver to forge magic swords that would slay the Stark wargs. He was writing Lady Stark to make a peace, the Kingslayer would soon be freed.

(ACoK, Arya VII)

The bit at the end of Bran's list about Rhaegar returning from the dead and Arya's casual mention of the silver swords for killing Stark wargs seem out of context with the other gossip in the paragraphs. Is GRRM trying to lull us into speed reading to get through the long list in each paragraph before slipping in something magical and unexpected and shocking? Or is it just a case of finishing off each paragraph with the biggest fantastic lie of all?

The lists are similar in some ways to the tales of the Nightfort that I discussed in an old post. Those stories seemed like old creepy fairy tales until you started to match them up with real events that take place at Winterfell.

Are there other lists of rumors or tales in the books? (I'm thinking there might be some rumors that reach Sansa during the Battle of the Blackwater. I'll look again there.)

The forum has devoted a lot of effort to analyzing the prophecies of Patchface and Melisandre. But foreshadowing might be more effective, in a sneaky way, if it is delivered in a format that doesn't declare, "This is a prophecy! Pay attention to this symbolism!" Does anyone care to offer an interpretation that might make sense of what GRRM is trying to do with scraps of gossip?

[Isobel Harper]

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One winesodden taleteller even claimed that Rhaegar Targaryen had returned from the dead and was marshaling a vast host of ancient heroes on Dragonstone to reclaim his father’s throne.

This could foreshadow Aurane Waters (who supposedly looks similar to Rhaegar) marshaling a host to invade and conquer Dragonstone.  The fall of Dragonstone was crucial in clearing the east of the Redwyne fleet so that Aegon could reclaim his father's throne. 

[chrisdaw]

 

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By the time her cup was empty, Arya was yawning. Gendry hadn't come back. Tom Sevenstrings was singing "Two Hearts that Beat as One," and kissing a different girl at the end of every verse. In the corner by the window Lem and Harwin sat talking to red-haired Tansy in low voices. ". . . spent the night in Jaime's cell," she heard the woman say. "Her and this other wench, the one who slew Renly. All three o' them together, and come the morn Lady Catelyn cut him loose for love." She gave a throaty chuckle.

The sordid lie being spread about why Catelyn came to let Jaime go and overheard by Arya is foreshadowing for how Gendry + Arya is going to go down.

The tall tales about Robb are what Jon is going to actually do.

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"And many more. Mine own son Tytos was amongst them, and my daughter's husband. When Stark changed into a wolf, his northmen did the same. The mark of the beast was on them all. Wargs birth other wargs with a bite, it is well-known. It was all my brothers and I could do to put them down before they slew us all."

Turning wolf, destroying Freys, but he's not going to get put down so he's going to slay pretty much all.

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"Using some vile sorcery, your brother fell upon Ser Stafford Lannister with an army of wargs, not three days ride from Lannisport. Thousands of good men were butchered as they slept, without the chance to lift sword. After the slaughter, the northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain."

. . . 

The Imp gave a disdainful bark of laughter. "Ser Lancel's a wineskin warrior who wouldn't know a warg from a wart. Your brother had his direwolf with him, but I suspect that's as far as it went. The northmen crept into my uncle's camp and cut his horse lines, and Lord Stark sent his wolf among them. Even war-trained destriers went mad. Knights were trampled to death in their pavilions, and the rabble woke in terror and fled, casting aside their weapons to run the faster. Ser Stafford was slain as he chased after a horse. Lord Rickard Karstark drove a lance through his chest. Ser Rubert Brax is also dead, along with Ser Lymond Vikary, Lord Crakehall, and Lord Jast. Half a hundred more have been taken captive, including Jast's sons and my nephew Martyn Lannister. Those who survived are spreading wild tales and swearing that the old gods of the north march with your brother."

 

Turning wolf, killing Lannisters, cannibalism.

[Isobel Harper]

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

This could foreshadow Aurane Waters (who supposedly looks similar to Rhaegar) marshaling a host to invade and conquer Dragonstone.  The fall of Dragonstone was crucial in clearing the east of the Redwyne fleet so that Aegon could reclaim his father's throne. 

I also think that (although this is just my prediction) Aurane has joined Aegon and has gotten or will get Dragonstone to support him as well.  This way, the "Rhaegar" amassing forces on Dragonstone to win back the throne is Aurane, the Rhaegar look-alike. 

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We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window.

Another prediction.  All the bat imagery in Sansa's arch has more to do with just getting in touch with her matrilineal heritage.  I believe that Robb made Sansa Shella Whent's heir after he disinherited her from Winterfell.  The image of her turning into a bat in this scene is one of many subtle hints if this.

If Sansa were simply disinherited from Winterfell, she no longer serves a purpose in the eyes of people  like Tywin Lannister.  This makes her expendible and at risk.  Giving her (and Tyrion) Harrenhal would hopefully appease the Lannisters enough to keep her safe.  If Sansa's children were more loyal to the Starks, the KotN has a powerful guardian and diplomatic force in the south.  If Sansa's children were more loyal to the Lannisters, they would have House Tully (who were at that time Lord Paramount) to keep them in check.

[chrisdaw]

Queen Sansa will poison to death King Tyrion, don't what the flying away means.

[Isobel Harper]

 

"Sweet?" Qavo laughed. "If even half the stories coming back from Slaver's Bay are true, this child is a monster. They say that she is bloodthirsty, that those who speak against her are impaled on spikes to die lingering deaths. They say she is a sorceress who feeds her dragons on the flesh of newborn babes, an oathbreaker who mocks the gods, breaks truces, threatens envoys, and turns on those who have served her loyally. They say her lust cannot be sated, that she mates with men, women, eunuchs, even dogs and children, and woe betide the lover who fails to satisfy her. She gives her body to men to take their souls in thrall."

Foreshadowing something in Winds?

"We betide the lover who fails to satisfy her."  Not looking good for Hizdahr.

[blondiesnow]

I like where you are going with this. I want to look at it more.

I tend to read this type of thing, in one way, GRRM trying to tell us a key to looking at lore, prophesy, and fable; what we hear isn't always the truth. Or it is a version of it. Or better yet, where your seat is, or your culture is, your truth is different.

In the show, kept trying to tell people, they are doing the same thing. The scene where Gilly says to Sam on the water. She always thought the "sea" was the "sea" because "far as the eye can see." In her part of the world that was her truth, based on what education she had, in a world without an ocean. Culture, education, era. It was the same as Maester Aemon died. He kept saying Aegon... calling him "egg" — and the camera kept zooming in on the baby. Trying to get you to see that meanings are different.

So, some of the text you listed, is hearsay, foreshadow, and others might be symbolic. Poetic even. Rheagar at Dragonstone... that one is to me. Assembling heroes. I believe we are in a new age of heroes. Books will speak of them and songs will be sung. There is a foreshadowing and symbolism to that somehow, for sure. Sure we can go literal and say the dragon is assembling people... Jon is. Pulling all these people together to fight in his great cause. And in that, as it comes, the things they will do... they will be heroes.

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We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window.

Because Arya wished she could have wings and fly away... I mean, that's a wolf on a dragon... I have to go back and look hard at context. But it's also Jon, who is a wolf and a dragon.

I'm not sure why I don't think this is Sansa exactly. But 100% foreshadowing and symbolism to something!