The COTF sent Bran's assassin

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

11 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Maybe? I'm sure it was no mystery why the King was riding north with his entourage. Would not have been too hard to stick a hanger-on in the crowd. 

Like I said, I'm not sold on it. Logistically, Joffrey is in the best position, it just doesn't seem to fit his character. We also know that the knife was, indeed, Littlefinger's because we see him with it later on. Only an idiot would arm an assassin with their own dagger, and Littlefinger is no idiot. Plain sight obfuscation. 
 

Actually, there is more textual evidence to believe it was Robert's. 

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"Tyrion always backed me in the lists," Jaime said, "but that day Ser Loras unhorsed me. A mischance, I took the boy too lightly, but no matter. Whatever my brother wagered, he lost . . . but that dagger did change hands, I recall it now. Robert showed it to me that night at the feast. His Grace loved to salt my wounds, especially when drunk. And when was he not drunk?"

Quote

"The steel was sufficient for two blades, not three. If you have need of a dagger, take one from the armory. Robert left a hundred when he died. Gerion gave him a gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel for a wedding gift, and half the envoys who came to court tried to curry favor by presenting His Grace with jewel-encrusted knives and silver inlay swords."

Quote

The prince's own dagger had a jeweled pommel and inlaid goldwork on the blade, Tyrion seemed to recall. At least Joff had not been stupid enough to use that. Instead he went poking among his father's weapons. Robert Baratheon was a man of careless generosity, and would have given his son any dagger he wanted . . . but Tyrion guessed that the boy had just taken it. Robert had come to Winterfell with a long tail of knights and retainers, a huge wheelhouse, and a baggage train. No doubt some diligent servant had made certain that the king's weapons went with him, in case he should desire any of them.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Just for the entertainment's sake - Summer was behind it, right? So, he gave the assassin the bag of silver and Robert's dagger, told him to kill Bran, and the dude just shrugged and say "sure, why the fuck not, the money's good"? I imagine the direwolf carried the purse in paw and the dagger in mouth, or was it the other way around?

[Heartofwinter]

15 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But 40 Thousand Skeletons, Summer is a fucking wolf! He can't plan and then foil fake assassinations." Exactly. But you know who could? The COTF and Bloodraven, who have the ability to control animals by skinchanging them.

It has been a while since I read the books, so its possible I don't remember but did we have any evidence of BR and the COTF actually able to skinchange into anything on the other side of the wall? I don't count being in Bran's dreams the same as skinchanging a wolf either. Also if it is possible, what is to rule out that the COTF was also responsible for the boar that killed Robert? 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 minutes ago, Heartofwinter said:

It has been a while since I read the books, so its possible I don't remember but did we have any evidence of BR and the COTF actually able to skinchange into anything on the other side of the wall? I don't count being in Bran's dreams the same as skinchanging a wolf either. Also if it is possible, what is to rule out that the COTF was also responsible for the boar that killed Robert? 

How do we rule out anything at this point? Maybe they are skinchanging everyone all the time? Maybe they poisoned Joff, killed Balon, the shade that killed Renly, Frey and Bolton to execute the RW, Robert when he killed Rhaegar, and so much else. CotF behind everything! 

[Guest]

It is most reasonable answer - Joffrey. How could CoTF get LF's dagger? And who would give it to assasin? Also, Littlefinger doesnt seem likely. Especially if he was in KL all the time while King's envoy was travelling back. There is no any textual support he left KL then or any time close to. At least someone would mention something about his recent leaving at one of the first small council meetings when Ned arrived in KL. And without leaving KL, how could he arrange assasination of comatose Bran. He just had to know a lot of stuff to do that. So, that leaves Joffrey, probably not personally, had arranged that.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Come to think of it, "Summer did it" actually makes a lot of sense. It only needs to be tweaked just a little bit. What has actually occurred was a case of truly tragic miscommunication.

See, the criminal meets with a direwolf, the direwolf hands him a bag of silver, a Valyrian dagger and, within his limited capabilities, with body language only, somehow conveys "Brandon Stark". What the man understands is, "you can have this silver, if you kill Bran Stark with this dagger". Alas, he couldn't be more wrong. What Summer meant to say, was "hey, bro, I borrowed this dagger from King Robert and this is a beautiful piece of weaponry. I want you to make a copy (here's the money), as a gift for Bran when he wakes up". The would-be assassin simply nods and walks away, neither of them even aware of the disastrous misunderstanding.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

[Maxxine]

14 hours ago, cgrav said:

Running with the "meant to fail" idea, I think that points most directly to Littlefinger. If I recall, his involvement was ruled out by the clumsiness of the whole thing, but that conclusion rests on the presumption that Littlefinger seriously wanted it to be successful. If Littlefinger's goal was to get Catelyn riled and rash, then the plot need not succeed. If Littlefinger did orchestrate it, I would imagine the idea was to align with Cersei's plan to get Jaime elevated to Hand, by giving the Starks a very good reason not to accept the King's offer.

Even if Joffrey did ultimately give the order, what assassins does a pampered royal child know? Joffrey could barely bring himself to look at commoners, much less consort with them privately. The instruction would have to have gone through someone else. My guesses are Littlefinger, Varys, or the Hound. The Hound killed one kid at Joff's behest, but that was not an assassination plot requiring weeks of travel (pretty sure timeline would rule that out). Varys would probably just walk off and do nothing (also timeline issues). Littlefinger would be like "way ahead of you little buddy".

I'll have to do some timeline research to see who was where when it happened, but I'm pretty sure the royal party was still en route to KL, since Bran saw Cat on a ship in his vision and she was trying to get there first. 

I've heard the LF theory before and I just don't think it works from a logistical standpoint and the poor planning. For this to work LF would have had find out about bran's fall, hire an assassasin, & the assassin would have had to then get to WF. I don't know if there's enough time for all of that to happen. Even if there was enough time and LF wanted it to fail, it was still to poorly planned to be LF. What if the assassin doesn't die and he's taken for questioning. There's the chance he implicates LF. LF wouldn't take that chance.

[Moving Watch]

I also imagined Littlefinger. It was his dagger, after all, and the whole legend about the wager with Tyrion was a complete lie, as we all know. And it was his letter too that Lysa had written to Cat. As well as it was his idea for Lysa to kill Jon Arryn.

Someone brought the chest with Lysa's letter to the library in WF. Who carried the mail? A fortnight after Bran's fall someone set the library at fire, just a few moments before the assassin intruded Bran's bedchamber. Who raised the fire? Two times the same place, two times in relation to Catelyn and the Lannisters.

Of course, all indications are that the assault was planned to fail. 4 Thousand Skeletons, your reflections on the weapon alone are most convincing. So why raise a fire? So that the hired person(s) himself/themselves did not recognize the trickery. The assassin said: "You're not supposed to be here. No one's supposed to be here." He believed that, because his tasker told him: "Ok, when you put the library to the torch, the mother will leave the chamber, everyone will hurry to the scene of fire." However, LF knew that Cat wouldn't never leave her ill son and that she would do everything to save her child's life. 

The only weak point in my theory is Summer. How did he get there exactly in the critical moment? But for him the assault had probably succeeded, and even Cat would have been killed. Maybe LF too had figured out a plan of how to open a door for the wolf?

Littlefinger's motive is quite clear to me. It's surely not about counteracting Ned's appointment to the Hand of the King, the less so because Ned was already on his way to King's Landing at that moment! What harm would his stupid honesty do to a man like Littlefinger? The harder the game the better he enjoys it! No, in my opinion, LF even planned to get Ned to court. When he whispered to Lysa about the Tears of Lys, he could be sure that Robert would nominate his bosom friend Ned Stark as the next Hand. And that is his motive: He planned to get the Starks to King's Landing and to put them onto the Lannisters. There's no other reason for me why he used his one-of-a-kind dagger claiming later he lost it to Tyrion - Lannister. It's the complete chaos he aimed for, including the war, because that are the situations which capitalists as LF do trade upon best.

40 Thousand Skeletons, your hypothesis is very intriguing. However, it has a weak point as well, even a very weak one: How did the Children of the Forest come by Littlefinger's dagger? What motive did they have - well, I know little and less about the CotF as yet, but the chapter where Bran is taking his first serious "underground lessons" left me with a very uneasy feeling. I could not name anything in particular, simply the whole atmosphere there was so... lifeless? like some realm of the dead... 

I'm really looking forward for you elaborating your theory!

 

[Moving Watch]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

So LF was able to do all this even though he was in KL?

How do you know he was there? He could be easily with Lysa at the Eyrie or elsewhere, and besides he didn't have to do it himself, just hire someone and send him to Winterfell. The assault happened a fortnight after Bran's fall - time enough to get there from someplace nearer than KL.

[Moving Watch]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

The obvious implication is that the assassin was there to do something other than kill Bran. Maybe Lysa wanted her Myrish lens back?

LOL I'm glad I finished the 5th book yesterday - finally I'm able to enjoy all those wonderful tinfoil hat theories no end!

[Clegane'sPup]

25 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Come to think of it, "Summer did it" actually makes a lot of sense. It only needs to be tweaked just a little bit. What has actually occurred was a case of truly tragic miscommunication.

See, the criminal meets with a direwolf, the direwolf hands him a bag of silver, a Valyrian dagger and, within his limited capabilities, with body language only, somehow conveys "Brandon Stark". What the man understands is, "you can have this silver, if you kill Bran Stark with this dagger". Alas, he couldn't be more wrong. What Summer meant to say, was "hey, bro, I borrowed this dagger from King Robert and this is a beautiful piece of weaponry. I want you to make a copy (here's the money), as a gift for Bran when he wakes up". The would-be assassin simply nods and walks away, neither of them even aware of the disastrous misunderstanding.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

Humor. I like it. Unique. Original. And thank you. lol, you would do good writing fan fiction.

[Chris Mormont]

It was Littlefinger.  He has spies everywhere and he is definitely trying to get the Starks against the Lannisters starting with the letter from Lyssa.  His spy sends a raven telling him of Bran's fall, and he probably instructs the catspaw to set the fire and then sneak into the room to "give Bran the gift of mercy".  He probably is given instruction to steal a knife, preferably Valyrian steel in order to ensure the cut is smooth and painless.  The guy is with the Royal Party when his instructions are received so he steals Robert's dagger.  He might even suggest to ditch the dagger when he is done so he doesn't get caught with it. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

10 minutes ago, Moving Watch said:

How do you know he was there? He could be easily with Lysa at the Eyrie or elsewhere, and besides he didn't have to do it himself, just hire someone and send him to Winterfell. The assault happened a fortnight after Bran's fall - time enough to get there from someplace nearer than KL.

You're right there is nothing telling us that he is there. But there is nothing saying he left KL either.

Seems likely that if LF was somewhere other than KL it would have been mentioned by someone. 

I think it was Joff (most textual evidence points to Joff IMO) but i think its funny that know one has posted the best evidence pointing toward LF yet.... wonder when someone will find it.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

33 minutes ago, Moving Watch said:

I also imagined Littlefinger. It was his dagger, after all, and the whole legend about the wager with Tyrion was a complete lie, as we all know. And it was his letter too that Lysa had written to Cat. As well as it was his idea for Lysa to kill Jon Arryn.

Someone brought the chest with Lysa's letter to the library in WF. Who carried the mail? A fortnight after Bran's fall someone set the library at fire, just a few moments before the assassin intruded Bran's bedchamber. Who raised the fire? Two times the same place, two times in relation to Catelyn and the Lannisters.

Of course, all indications are that the assault was planned to fail. 4 Thousand Skeletons, your reflections on the weapon alone are most convincing. So why raise a fire? So that the hired person(s) himself/themselves did not recognize the trickery. The assassin said: "You're not supposed to be here. No one's supposed to be here." He believed that, because his tasker told him: "Ok, when you put the library to the torch, the mother will leave the chamber, everyone will hurry to the scene of fire." However, LF knew that Cat wouldn't never leave her ill son and that she would do everything to save her child's life. 

The only weak point in my theory is Summer. How did he get there exactly in the critical moment? But for him the assault had probably succeeded, and even Cat would have been killed. Maybe LF too had figured out a plan of how to open a door for the wolf?

Littlefinger's motive is quite clear to me. It's surely not about counteracting Ned's appointment to the Hand of the King, the less so because Ned was already on his way to King's Landing at that moment! What harm would his stupid honesty do to a man like Littlefinger? The harder the game the better he enjoys it! No, in my opinion, LF even planned to get Ned to court. When he whispered to Lysa about the Tears of Lys, he could be sure that Robert would nominate his bosom friend Ned Stark as the next Hand. And that is his motive: He planned to get the Starks to King's Landing and to put them onto the Lannisters. There's no other reason for me why he used his one-of-a-kind dagger claiming later he lost it to Tyrion - Lannister. It's the complete chaos he aimed for, including the war, because that are the situations which capitalists as LF do trade upon best.

40 Thousand Skeletons, your hypothesis is very intriguing. However, it has a weak point as well, even a very weak one: How did the Children of the Forest come by Littlefinger's dagger? What motive did they have - well, I know little and less about the CotF as yet, but the chapter where Bran is taking his first serious "underground lessons" left me with a very uneasy feeling. I could not name anything in particular, simply the whole atmosphere there was so... lifeless? like some realm of the dead... 

I'm really looking forward for you elaborating your theory!

 

No. It was Robert's. Read the quotes in one of my posts above.

[Moving Watch]

Maybe he never left KL, but as someone else pointed out, LF too has his "birds" everywhere. The rest would be a matter of ravens. I think there are much unknowns as to how he exactly did it, but the most convincing for me is the motive - as opposed to that of Joffrey.

Quote

but i think its funny that know one has posted the best evidence pointing toward LF yet.... wonder when someone will find it.

Oh please don't do that - or give me some hint at least!

[Clegane'sPup]

12 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think it was Joff (most textual evidence points to Joff IMO) but i think its funny that know one has posted the best evidence pointing toward LF yet.... wonder when someone will find it.

Are your referring to this?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2008/07

[Did Littlefinger influence Joffrey to try and kill Bran?]

Well, Littlefinger did have a certain hidden inflouence over Joff... but he was not at Winterfell, and that needs to be remembered.

Personally I kinda like FVR's explanation.

[Moving Watch]

4 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

No. It was Robert's. Read the quotes in one of my posts above.

Yeah, read it. Just didn't remember this statement - Jaime to Catelyn, to be sure? Well... confusing...

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Are your referring to this?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2008/07

 

[Did Littlefinger influence Joffrey to try and kill Bran?]

 

Well, Littlefinger did have a certain hidden inflouence over Joff... but he was not at Winterfell, and that needs to be remembered.

 

 

Personally I kinda like FVR's explanation.

No, not that. I'm referring to something in GoT, one of the books in ASOIAF which these theories are supposed to be based on. I'll PM it to you.

Yes! I agree! @Ferocious Veldt Roarer explanation is the best.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

8 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

No, not that. I'm referring to something in GoT, one of the books in ASOIAF which these theories are supposed to be based on. I'll PM it to you.

Yes! I agree! @Ferocious Veldt Roarer explanation is the best.

 

Argh . Go ahead spill it.

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Let's look at the moment LF first sees the dagger. 

Quote

Varys giggled like a little girl. “Oh, yes. I suppose I am guilty. I hope you forgive me, kind lady.” He eased himself down into a seat and put his hands together. “I wonder if we might trouble you to show us the dagger?” Catelyn Stark stared at the eunuch in stunned disbelief. He was a spider, she thought wildly, an enchanter or worse. He knew things no one could possibly know, unless … “What have you done to Ser Rodrik?” she demanded. Littlefinger was lost. “I feel rather like the knight who arrives at the battle without his lance. What dagger are we talking about? Who is Ser Rodrik?”

Now I suppose you could argue that LF is playing the mummer here, which is a valid argument. After all, he lies and manipulates all the time.  

However, I would say that if anyone in our series knows LF it is Catelyn. For her to think "LF is lost" means something of significance. He genuinely knows nothing about the dagger.

Next Varys and Catelyn talk for a bit about how Varys knows about the dagger, meanwhile LF is silent.

Now Cat busts out the dagger and LF pipes up again. 

Quote

Catelyn pulled it out from beneath her cloak and threw it down on the table in front of him. “Here. Perhaps your little birds will whisper the name of the man it belongs to.” Varys lifted the knife with exaggerated delicacy and ran a thumb along its edge. Blood welled, and he let out a squeal and dropped the dagger back on the table. “Careful,” Catelyn told him, “it’s sharp.” “Nothing holds an edge like Valyrian steel,” Littlefinger said as Varys sucked at his bleeding thumb and looked at Catelyn with sullen admonition. Littlefinger hefted the knife lightly in his hand, testing the grip. He flipped it in the air, caught it again with his other hand. “Such sweet balance. You want to find the owner, is that the reason for this visit? You have no need of Ser Aron for that, my lady. You should have come to me.”

What is LF flipping here? The dagger, of course, but also ideas. He is tossing ideas back and forth in his head before deciding his next step. He makes his decision right there to use this opportunity to frame Tyrion.