The COTF sent Bran's assassin

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

17 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Some does indeed and that is the most likely thing. That said, it is not impossible that there are other and more sinister things going on.

 

as for textual evidence for FM and BR I am working on it. I wish I had the time to take all these ideas and notes and build them into a single cogent essay. I really enjoy this stuff.

in short i will say that the FM are natural enemies of team ice given their origin as the slaves of valyrian dragon lords. I will confess, I see a very clear binary between the powers of fire (targs, dragons, blood magic, r'holler etc) and powers of ice (Others and wight army, COTF, Starks, bloodraven and, yes, Faceless men).

 

@Ferocious Veldt Roarer explained this earlier. Anytime you have to tie and untie so many knots then weave them back together in a different way it weakens the theory.

I will stil read yours and @40 Thousand Skeletons theories with an open mind but I think they will be incredibly difficult to prove.

[YOVMO]

53 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@Ferocious Veldt Roarer explained this earlier. Anytime you have to tie and untie so many knots then weave them back together in a different way it weakens the theory.

I will stil read yours and @40 Thousand Skeletons theories with an open mind but I think they will be incredibly difficult to prove.

I can accept everything you say here. I will leave you with the following points though. 1) While you are correct that breaking something down and building it back up will weaken things to the degree it is done, in the unpacking often times things of value slip out. An entire theory doesn't have to be correct for one or two small points of interest to be seen. 2 ) by totally breaking things down to the point of combing over even the most insignificant minutiae you really deepen the story (in my opinion) like layering flavors in a good soup 3) Some people, myself included, genuinely enjoy doing this stuff and right or wrong it is fun to play with the ideas and then share them with other people who think it is fun. If this is my hobby I see no reason to shit all over it and say "shhhhhh noon thats like totally improbable" jeepers creepers let me have some fun. There are plenty of people here who also find it interesting and we all get to nerd out together. What's the harm? and of course the most important 4) WHERE TF IS WOW I NEED MORE READING MATERIAL!!!!!!

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

15 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I can accept everything you say here. I will leave you with the following points though. 1) While you are correct that breaking something down and building it back up will weaken things to the degree it is done, in the unpacking often times things of value slip out. An entire theory doesn't have to be correct for one or two small points of interest to be seen. 2 ) by totally breaking things down to the point of combing over even the most insignificant minutiae you really deepen the story (in my opinion) like layering flavors in a good soup 3) Some people, myself included, genuinely enjoy doing this stuff and right or wrong it is fun to play with the ideas and then share them with other people who think it is fun. If this is my hobby I see no reason to shit all over it and say "shhhhhh noon thats like totally improbable" jeepers creepers let me have some fun. There are plenty of people here who also find it interesting and we all get to nerd out together. What's the harm? and of course the most important 4) WHERE TF IS WOW I NEED MORE READING MATERIAL!!!!!!

If you can show me where I said it caused "harm" I will apologize. And I've never said you shouldn't post your theory. In fact, I'm looking forward to reading it. 

Yes, it's fun to try to weave together crazy theories. It is also fun to read them. It is also fun to point out where they are wrong or lack evidence. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Yup.

But I have to say @Ferocious Veldt RoarerI am disappointed. I thought when I saw your name on this post I was going to get some more "Sumner Did It". I want to know what happens next!

I think it's now as good as I can make it, so now all that's left for me to do is to shoot down the just-as-crazy-but-less-funny competition.

[YOVMO]

16 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

If you can show me where I said it caused "harm" I will apologize. And I've never said you shouldn't post your theory. In fact, I'm looking forward to reading it. 

Yes, it's fun to try to weave together crazy theories. It is also fun to read them. It is also fun to point out where they are wrong or lack evidence. 

No no, I never thought you ought alpologize! I was just clairifying that you are, essentially, correct but this is fun nonetheless.

 

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

30 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

No no, I never thought you ought alpologize! I was just clairifying that you are, essentially, correct but this is fun nonetheless.

 

 

As long as we're all having fun!

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

3) Some people, myself included, genuinely enjoy doing this stuff and right or wrong it is fun to play with the ideas and then share them with other people who think it is fun. If this is my hobby I see no reason to shit all over it and say "shhhhhh noon thats like totally improbable" jeepers creepers let me have some fun. There are plenty of people here who also find it interesting and we all get to nerd out together. What's the harm? and of course the most important 4) WHERE TF IS WOW I NEED MORE READING MATERIAL!!!!!!

Crackpot and tinfoil can be funny and entertaining. I guess I’m an old fashioned nerd, bah humbug. Nope, no, I dun’t thunk dat da CotF and BR conspired to send an assassin to kill Bran.

From the beginning of GoT through to SoS Martin has written out a story. Starting with Bran sees the Queen & her brother committing an act of sexual incest. Due to his age he doesn’t actually comprehend what he saw. Jaime grabs him and then Jaime releases his grasp allowing Bran to plummet to his death. Yada, yada. There is a path through Martin’s books that leads to the conclusion of who sent the assassin to kill Bran.

AGOT

c. 9 “If he wakes,” Cersei repeated. “Is that likely?” Followed by more breakfast banter. Tyrion says he hopes the boy wakes because he would be interested in what the boy would say.

c. 18 LF tells Cat the dagger is his and that Tyrion won it in a bet. Which turned out to be a lie.

c. 20 Cat tells Eddard the dagger belongs to the Imp. LF says the Imp would not have acted alone. Eddard considers Robert.Eddard decides Robert is not involved. LF insinuates, “The Queen, if you can find proof & if you can make Robert listen, then perhaps…

Hindsight is 20/20. I can see that LF is stirring the pot to get Starks & Lannisters at each others throats.

c. 28 Cat declares while at an inn, “This man [Tyrion] came a guest in my house and there conspired to murder my son, a boy of seven.” I, the reader have been set up to believe the knife is Tyrion’s; as have the characters in the story.

The clues go on and on for two more books. Is it necessary for me to type them?  C.30 Renly makes a remark that contradicts what LF previously said about the dagger being the Imp’s, etc etc

c.31 Tyrion tells Cat he had no part in the attempt on Bran’s life. Tyrion asks when speaking to Cat, how did LF tell you I came by this dagger of his? Tyrion continues his talk with Cat stating that he never bets his against his family.

c. 38 Tyrion wonders whether it was Jamie or Cersei who sent the footpad…

Then in CoK he starts to flesh out the tale.

At some point in time I gotta think that Martin is telling a frekking story. Personally I thought it was Cersei who set the murder attempt up until it was revealed  in SoS by Tyrion & Jaime that Joff did it. I reserve the right to think that Cersei was the one who whispered in Joffrey’s ear and helped him with his scheme.

Even the flimsiest of crackpot has to have a base in their most beloved author’s books. Unless of course the crackpot is coming from a source who enjoys getting their nerdgasm while watching other nerds argue & debate. Damn, kinda reminds me of the farce taking place in the USA news media.

[Light a wight tonight]

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Let's be serious, I am thoroughly unconvinced by your unsatisfying argument and your undeserved level of confidence in it. I'm sorry, care to list all the stuff I "made up"?

From the get-go, the Children of the Forest being anything but the remnants of a dying race. That's what we see and that's what we are told. You base your whole theory on an unprovable premise.

[YOVMO]

29 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

As long as we're all having fun!

It is all about fun. Fun and frustration that there isn't another book yet. 

[YOVMO]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

As long as we're all having fun!

I will say this. Tyrion comes to the conclusion that it was Joffery when, at the pre wedding party, Joffery says "I'm no stranger to Valyrian steel" He has no actual evidence. He makes the assumption based on that one line. That said, it was already pointed out that arming the catspaw with a dagger of VS was exceedingly stupid. The reason that is given, that Joffery overheard Robert say that Bran should be mercy killed and Joffery wanting approval from his father isn't just "joff is a sadistic D-Bag" crazy but is really just an absolutely mindbogglingly stupid leap. Other than Tyrion jumping to the this very strange conclusion about his nephew whom he is predisposed to really disliking based on a comment that would seem to fly in the face of reason regarding the VS dagger and right before getting charged with a crime he didn't commit himself (killing Joff) there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that it was Joffery who sent the catspaw armed with the dagger.

 

Does this mean Joff didn't do it? No, of course not. However, to try to say that it is an unquestionable fact that he did just because Tyrion thinks he did based on his own dislike of Joffery, the idea that Robert drunkenly said that the boy should be mercy killed and Joff overhearing it and wanting Robert's approval (which we have no idea that Joff heard it and all indications is that he can care less about Robert's approval) and the vague comment that Joff makes about being no stranger to VS while standing in front of the whole court showing off  is short sighted imo.

 

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Crackpot and tinfoil can be funny and entertaining. I guess I’m an old fashioned nerd, bah humbug. Nope, no, I dun’t thunk dat da CotF and BR conspired to send an assassin to kill Bran.

If you go back to my original post on this thread to the OP (which I believe is the first reply on this thread overall) you will see that I explicitly asked for more proof and said that because I want to believe it is true I am in no position to make an objective judgement but that I look forward to seeing the larger theory laid out because it would make sense with my long time held belief that CoTG, BR and the FM are working in unison. So it wasn't that I said that they did conspire to kill bran. What I said was that if the catspaw could be shown to be not from Joffery but rather from bloodraven that it would help some other theories that I have and I anxiously anticipate the larger write up.

 

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I reserve the right to think that Cersei was the one who whispered in Joffrey’s ear and helped him with his scheme.

This is, probably, the most likely explanation. But Cersei, while careless and reckless and lacking any ability to think about consequences, if she wanted him dead would at least have been smart enough not to give him a VS dagger. I will go as far as to say that I think there is something fishy with Tyrion's conclusion that it was Joff and that there are, after all, greater forces at play. I mean, to me at least, a large part of this story is all about how the kings and queens and lords and ladies are involved in what they think is the be all and end all of importance while, in the end, they are just pawns in much larger schemes no different than the way that peasants are pawns in theirs.

[Jon Fossoway]

4 pages and the OP hasn't typed the post with the evidence of why GRRM decided to follow a plotline and not another. 

Not impressed.

[YOVMO]

19 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

4 pages and the OP hasn't typed the post with the evidence of why GRRM decided to follow a plotline and not another. 

Not impressed.

I agree merrett. However, as a long time procrastinator who has been working on the same damn essay about Harps for like 6 weeks now I don't want to be too harsh. I think it is a cool idea. I am anxiously awaiting. 

[House Beaudreau]

On 10/20/2016 at 7:05 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think this one is pretty obvious, and I don't know why more people don't see it, but here we go.

SOMEONE sent an assassin to kill Bran in AGOT. At first we are led to believe it was likely Cersei/Jaime, but we later learn it was not. Tyrion and Jaime both blame Joffrey, but this answer is super unsatisfying to a lot of readers (including myself), and we have no real confirmation that Joffrey actually did it. So let's reexamine what happened with this super simple line of logic:

The most important aspect of the assassination is the Valyrian steel dagger. Cat and Ser Rodrik quickly and correctly deduce that the dagger could not have belonged to the assassin, as it was too fine a weapon for a commoner to own. The direct consequence is that Cat blames the Lannisters (because of the letter from LF about Jon Arryn) and goes to KL. There are a few aspects of this assassination that are ridiculous, but they go unquestioned by the characters and some readers. Why use a fancy weapon (that implicates someone else, e.g. the Lannisters) instead of a plain one? Why use a dagger at all? Why not just smother Bran with a pillow if you want his secrets kept to the grave? Picture the following conversation. Person 1: "Hey, that kid who fell out a window died in his coma last night." Person 2: "I'm not the least bit surprised by this news. I don't suspect any foul play at all." That would be reasonable. Why did the assassin think no one would be in the room? Everyone important in the castle likely knew that Cat had not left Bran's side and would be in the room (including Joffrey). Why did he leave the bag of silver behind in the stables where he was supposedly sleeping instead of keeping the silver on his person to escape as quickly as possible?

So you can see, we have a few mysterious questions with an obvious answer: THE ASSASSINATION WAS MEANT TO FAIL! There is simply no other explanation for all these questions. Whoever planned the attempt knew it would fail, knew the Valyrian dagger would be found, and knew Cat would act to find the truth (it is also very likely that this nefarious party knew about the LF letter and knew that Cat would blame the Lannisters). So who sent the assassin? Well, that's actually pretty easy to deduce. There is only one person who could have known for sure the attempt would fail: Summer. Summer tore out the assassin's throat, thus saving Bran's (and Cat's) life. No one else could have known it would go down that way. Now, I hear you thinking, "But 40 Thousand Skeletons, Summer is a fucking wolf! He can't plan and then foil fake assassinations." Exactly. But you know who could? The COTF and Bloodraven, who have the ability to control animals by skinchanging them.

So there you go folks, the COTF sent the assassin in order to manipulate Cat. This is one small aspect of my views on the big picture of the plot regarding the COTF and LF, which I don't want to really expand on too much in this thread, but I want to know people's thoughts on this theory in particular. What do you think?

I think you might be missing a very key piece here.  If the point of the Assassination was to manipulate Cat, Ill ask you this, To what end?

Does Bloodraven benefit from Cat going to Kings Landing? you can argue yes because she leaves Bran and all that.

If it wasn't Joff (which I think it was) It seems more likely that it would be LittleFinger. and Here is why.  Cat would be in charge of the castle and the fire would probably draw her attention. 

Littlefinger would have knowledge of the Dagger and the consequences of it be found. 

LF wanted Cat to come to him in Kings Landing

Littlefinger doesnt seem to shocked when the dagger is brought out and I think he has Aaron Santigar killed in the Riot of Kings landing because he also knows the truth of this dagger (But thats for a different discussion). 

I agree this would be cool if it were true but I can get behind it without more textual evidence. Like the Mance Ryder is Rhaegar theory. I love it but its just not possible within the text evidence.   

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

4 pages and the OP hasn't typed the post with the evidence of why GRRM decided to follow a plotline and not another. 

Not impressed.

It's long, and I'm busy. Gonna be a new thread anyway

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

If you go back to my original post on this thread to the OP (which I believe is the first reply on this thread overall) you will see that I explicitly asked for more proof and said that because I want to believe it is true I am in no position to make an objective judgement but that I look forward to seeing the larger theory laid out because it would make sense with my long time held belief that CoTG, BR and the FM are working in unison. So it wasn't that I said that they did conspire to kill bran. What I said was that if the catspaw could be shown to be not from Joffery but rather from bloodraven that it would help some other theories that I have and I anxiously anticipate the larger write up.

Would you be my lawyer if I ever need one?

[YOVMO]

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

Would you be my lawyer if I ever need one?

Only if I get to do a trial by combat now and then. If I could pick trial by combat I would commit so many crimes 

[sweetsunray]

Imo a story is divided in Act 1, Act 2 and Act 3 (the final act). aGoT to aSoS is Act 1. George likes writing mysteries, but some are more mundane and others are far bigger. The mundane ones get the high focus in Act 1, but are also resolved by Act 1.

aGoT's first big mystery is Jon Arryn's death. It's introduced to us with "Lysa's message in a box". Stylistically the box and deciphering of the message is written to reflect the Eleusinian mystery ritual of the esoteric truths about life & death that follow from the myth of Persephone and Demeter. So, it's supposed to make us believe that this mystery is "crucial" and not mundane at all. And yet it is as mundane as it can be: a whodunnit murder mystery. And the "who murdered Jon Arryn and why?" is the motive that convinces Ned to accept being Hand of the King and play at being a Hercule Poirot in KL. At the end of Act 1, we learn through Lysa's words to LF before she's thrown out of the Moon Door, that it was Lysa who poisoned Jon Arryn and lied in her message to please LF, and cause war between Lannisters and Starks, because Jon Arryn intended to foster Sweetrobin to Stannis.Ned did uncover a motive for Cersei to do it, but she was not actually behind Jon Arryn's death (though Pycelle might have helped Arryn along after Lysa already poisoned him to begin with). Throughout aGoT though we are already given hints about the fostering of Sweetrobin and thus a pointer to Lysa's motivation.

Another mundane mystery is that of the assassination of Bran. Because of the above mystery it's normal for Cat and Ned to think it has anything to do with covering up the incest, especially since Jaime chucked Bran out of the window to begin with. But the whole issue incest and Joff's parentage is a red herring for both mysteries. However, like the above mystery it's something for which we ought to have hints, clues and a conclusion throughout Act 1. Tyrion overhears Sandor and Joff talking about putting wolves out of their misery. While Sandor offers to kill a direwolf for Joff, Joff also says that he thinks Bran is taking too long to die and that even his "father" thinks so. The day Joff dies he brags he knows what VS is like, a slip of the tongue. Tyrion connects the dots and offers a new gift of a dagger of VS with dragonbone hilt, to which Joff initially wishes to respond, but then changes what he wanted to say, realizing Tyrion knows now. Tyrion figures out how, but is unsure of the why (though he do remembers the Sandor-Joff convo). Is it in character? Absolutely! Joff is a stupid, cruel boy who believes he's smart, when he isn't: see the beheading of Ned Stark where Joff believes he outsmarted his mother, Varys and Sansa, but blows any chance for peace with the Starks. And he admires his "father" : see Joff citing Robert at the meeting with Tywin regarding pardoning the traitors who bend the knee. It is Jaime who figures out the "why", in the white tower when he talks with Cersei and she reveals that a drunken Robert said somethign along the lines of putting down animals, but not doing it with people, in front of her AND the children (including Joff) at Winterfell.

I do not think the catspaw being given the dagger to kill Bran by Joffrey is an underhwelming conclusion, because the assassination attempt is in fact a stupid job, an underwhelming attempt to begin with. It was either a set-up to make the Lannisters more suspect, or it was ordered by someone stupid who's cocksure and never thinks the consequences through and that certainly fits Joff. The box was enough already to get the blood boiling for Ned against the Lannisters. It didn't require any assassination attempt to get the ball rolling. But when it happend, LF simply made the best use of it (he's an opportunist). LF's plan was to get Ned to believe that Cersei killed Jon Arryn over the incest. The assassination attempt on Bran was not required for LF to succeed in that with Ned.

The CotF makes no sense at all whatsoever.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Here's part 1, everybody go nuts

 

[Lord Wraith]

Bump for an excellent theory and several Youtubers have been discussing the issue recently. More food for thought.

[DarkBastard]

Oops, violated the rules on this one.  Removed content, sorry!