US Elections - The white power-suit vs the white-power suit

[OldGimletEye]

33 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Since when was Barry Goddamn Goldwater fundamentally decent?

A little cynical about the narrative of the "principled conservative". Now, gee, I just can't understand why.

But, seriously, it's kind of like Paul Ryan whom many think is a "principled conservative". Now maybe Ryan really believes what he is saying and has convinced himself that he holds no animosity towards minorities. But, the fact of the matter is that Ryan pushes an ideology that fuels racism. For instance, Ryan goes around talking about "welfare dependency" and then goes around and misrepresents people's research on the issue of how welfare affects the labor supply. To hear Ryan tell it, there are large effects on the supply of labor from welfare, when actually the research tends to show that they are modest.

So Ryan goes around and pushes his welfare dependency story and naturally white nationalist types cling to it as an excuse, never thinking that historical racism  and discrimination may have a lot to do with the economic problems of minorities and women.

ETA:

I don't think Goldwater was particularly racist for his time. But, clearly his ideology was appealing to a lot of racist. And Goldwater's nomination is what caused the exodus of African Americans from the Republican Party. If I recall correctly, even Richard Nixon got about 36% of the African American Vote in 1960 whereas Goldwater got like 6% or something.

When historians study the rise of Trump, I think very likely the story begins with Goldwater's nomination.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I watched both of their monologues. Both were in bad need of a punch-up from a comic perspective. Not many laughs to be had. 

[Ariadne23]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I watched both of their monologues. Both were in bad need of a punch-up from a comic perspective. Not many laughs to be had. 

I'd say Trump's Haiti "joke" wins for least funny. His "pardon me" joke was pretty good though. Hillary just about fell out of chair cracking up at that one.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Ariadne23 said:

I'd say Trump's Haiti "joke" wins for least funny. His "pardon me" joke was pretty good though. Hillary just about fell out of chair cracking up at that one.

Yeah, that Haiti joke was brutal both in content and delivery. He straight butchered that one.

[Jace, Extat]

33 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Again, it doesn't matter what is in the emails. That's not the point. 

The point is that if Russia hacked the email server it shows that the server was, indeed, vulnerable and that Russia has had classified and TS information. The Espionage Act says that you either have to had been deliberately trying to circumvent security policies to release information (something that was clear in the Petraeus case, for instance) or you have to have been grossly neglectful in duties that resulted in information being leaked.

Here's the specific text:

The gross negligence part is really difficult to prove most of the time (and I believe only one case did they even think to bring it up, in 2003). There was a lot of talk about the data being removed because it was on the private email server, but that was pretty ignored.

But if it's actually in the hands of the Russians?

At this point I think if they had anything they would have used it, I'm sure Putin understands the US election better than Trump and knows by this point people's minds are made up and voting is underway. Also, 3 weeks is about the minimum I could see for the material to be released and examined and confirmed legit. 

But, I know little and less about such things.

[S John]

3 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

At this point I think if they had anything they would have used it, I'm sure Putin understands the US election better than Trump and knows by this point people's minds are made up and voting is underway. Also, 3 weeks is about the minimum I could see for the material to be released and examined and confirmed legit. 

But, I know little and less about such things.

I agree.  Anything is possible in this crazy year, but people are already voting.  I'd think you'd want to throw your hardest punch before too many people have voted, and with enough time for whatever it is to sink in. I also agree that at this point, minds are made up.  There's almost nothing anyone could say about either candidate at this point that would convince voters that the other one isn't worse.  And personally, I'm not voting for Clinton so much as voting against Trump, that means I'd also take Kaine over Trump.  

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, S John said:

I agree.  Anything is possible in this crazy year, but people are already voting.  I'd think you'd want to throw your hardest punch before too many people have voted, and with enough time for whatever it is to sink in. I also agree that at this point, minds are made up.  There's almost nothing anyone could say about either candidate at this point that would convince voters that the other one isn't worse.  And personally, I'm not voting for Clinton so much as voting against Trump, that means I'd also take Kaine over Trump.  

But that's kind of the thing. Russia isn't interested in Trump as a leader; that's not the point. He's interested in making the US fundamentally broken for a while and unable to reasonably contest him later. 

The point isn't to get Trump elected - it's to make the US go into a situation where no choice is good and no matter what happens, fighting will occur for long after. And in this way early voting plays right in - if Clinton wins but does so because of early voting, imagine the outcry if it's revealed that she may be guilty of violating the Espionage Act all along?

And yes, I'd pick Kaine over Trump as well - but the fact that we would have a Clinton going to trial and resigning after all this would be a massive blow that would energize Trump supporters, make Kaine's presidency a sham and disarm him. Alternately, it might make Trump actually win. Point being that either result works just fine for Russia. 

[Jace, Extat]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

But that's kind of the thing. Russia isn't interested in Trump as a leader; that's not the point. He's interested in making the US fundamentally broken for a while and unable to reasonably contest him later. 

The point isn't to get Trump elected - it's to make the US go into a situation where no choice is good and no matter what happens, fighting will occur for long after. And in this way early voting plays right in - if Clinton wins but does so because of early voting, imagine the outcry if it's revealed that she may be guilty of violating the Espionage Act all along?

And yes, I'd pick Kaine over Trump as well - but the fact that we would have a Clinton going to trial and resigning after all this would be a massive blow that would energize Trump supporters, make Kaine's presidency a sham and disarm him. Alternately, it might make Trump actually win. Point being that either result works just fine for Russia. 

You think Putin wants to go down that road with America? I think he's too smart to not realize that whoever is left standing after the fallout is going to make damn sure Russia pays for their interference. Hell, I could see Obama calling it an act of war.

[OldGimletEye]

8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

But that's kind of the thing. Russia isn't interested in Trump as a leader; that's not the point. He's interested in making the US fundamentally broken for a while and unable to reasonably contest him later. 

I don't necessarily disagree with this. But, Putin probably liked hearing Trump suggesting that Article V of the Nato Treaty might be optional.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

You think Putin wants to go down that road with America? I think he's too smart to not realize that whoever is left standing after the fallout is going to make damn sure Russia pays for their interference. Hell, I could see Obama calling it an act of war.

I doubt it. Republicans will call it an act of heroism revealing Clinton's illegality (maybe not officials, but definitely the people). You think a non-elected Kaine is going to declare war on Russia? You think Trump will? Obama can declare it whatever he wants, but congress sure as hell isn't going to act on it either. 

Russia might get sanctioned and Europe might go along with it, but he doesn't appear to care two shits about economic issues of Russia and cares more about increasing Russia's bootprint on the world. Making America and Europe pissed doesn't matter if they're not actively taking action against Russia. 

[DanteGabriel]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, that Haiti joke was brutal both in content and delivery. He straight butchered that one.

That whole stretch, from the Watergate committee to Haiti, didn't seem like there were any actual jokes. Just mean little jabs that may have been formatted in the most perfunctory joke-like way.

Clinton's most brutal barb, on the Statue of Liberty, was a joke that went a little awkwardly in her delivery because she couldn't keep her tone light. But you could see it was still a joke and not just an outpouring of grievance.

[Jace, Extat]

8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I doubt it. Republicans will call it an act of heroism revealing Clinton's illegality (maybe not officials, but definitely the people). You think a non-elected Kaine is going to declare war on Russia? You think Trump will? Obama can declare it whatever he wants, but congress sure as hell isn't going to act on it either. 

Russia might get sanctioned and Europe might go along with it, but he doesn't appear to care two shits about economic issues of Russia and cares more about increasing Russia's bootprint on the world. Making America and Europe pissed doesn't matter if they're not actively taking action against Russia. 

I'll grant you that the Trumpets of the world have a weird fetish for Putin, but if Clinton were to be indicted I can see the majority of Republicans coming around to the fact that a foreign government just attacked our democracy. 

That cannot go unanswered, and if Obama were to call it an act of war that doesn't mean we start sending troops to Asia, but it puts pressure on NATO to have our backs.

[Zorral]

56 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

At this point I think if they had anything they would have used it, I'm sure Putin understands the US election better than Trump and knows by this point people's minds are made up and voting is underway. Also, 3 weeks is about the minimum I could see for the material to be released and examined and confirmed legit. 

But, I know little and less about such things.

Yah -- see this in Daily Kos:

Quote

 

Just when you think 2016 couldn't get any weirder:

OKLAHOMA CITY — Oklahoma has turned down a request from Russia to have personnel in the state to study the Nov. 8 election, Bryan Dean, Oklahoma State Election Board spokesman, said Thursday.

Louisiana and Texas received similar requests in an election in which the GOP nominee, Donald Trump, has said the election is rigged and others have alleged that he is in cahoots with Russia as it tries to influence the U.S. election in his favor. […]

Keith Gaddie, chairman of the Political Science Department at the University of Oklahoma, said Russia is "trying to throw shade on our election process."

It's absolutely what they're trying to do, as ham-handed as the effort is. Because the nation and the rest of the world will really believe that the U.S. elections system needs to be monitored by Russia? No, this is a sign that Putin has given up on the idea that he'll have his puppet Trump in the White House come January. The next best thing would be to delegitimize Hillary Clinton's presidency by pushing this "rigged" election claim. He wants to weaken her as president even before she takes office. Something that he has in common with the GOP.

 

Orange Stalin should be disqualified right now for aiding and abetting a foreign power to interfere in the election process. This goes far far far beyond ANYTHING that supposedly in those e-mails that have been investigated and vetted dozens of times by a variety of legal agencies, military agencies, etc.

Not to mention his long and personal business dealing with the mob.  But that didn't stop the Kennedys back in the day so  . . . .

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 https://ablastfromthepast.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/1809-15697.jpg

 

West Coast. East Coast. Down here is Mexico. First wave of the attack came in disguised as commercial charter flights same way they did in Afghanistan in '80. Only they were crack Airborne outfits. Now they took these passes in the Rockies.

Infiltrators came up illegal from Mexico. Cubans mostly. They managed to infiltrate SAC bases in the Midwest, several down in Texas and wreaked a helluva lot of havoc, I'm here to tell you. They opened up the door down here, and the whole Cuban & Nicaraguan armies come walking right through, rolled right up here through the Great Plains.

 

[Zorral]

In the meantime the denial of service attacks continue.  From here domain names of Guardian, New York Times netflix, etc. are not recognized.  Is it a coincidence that a few days after Assange's web access was cut off by the Ecuadorian embassy this is happening -- not to every one, but generally sites that can be perceived as not Orange Stalin leaning? NY was very mean to the orange fella last night . . . . Tin foil hat time?

Just now experienced this while trying to catch up with what I've missed.  It happened this morning on the east coast too, and got fixed supposedly, by 9:30 AM.  Now it continues.

 

 

[the Greenleif Stark]

 

HS sophomore gets kicked out of class for opposing Clinton 

 

http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2016/10/student_tossed_from_homeroom_for_supporting_trump.html

[Fez]

2 hours ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Since when was Barry Goddamn Goldwater fundamentally decent?

Arguably since this news came out over the summer about a meeting he had at the White House with Johnson in the run-up to the election.

Quote

 

That was the spirit that prevailed between the two when Goldwater requested a brief meeting with Johnson to discuss the 1964 presidential campaign. Although the media knew about the meeting and speculated that the topic of race would be addressed, the content of the Oval Office meeting remained off the record.

The Oval Office conversation was actually recorded by the White House taping system, either at Johnson’s request or by accident. Although the two men’s voices are largely inaudible, Goldwater can be heard telling Johnson, “I just wanted you to know that if there’s anything I can do, I’m prepared to do it.” Later in the conversation, Johnson asserts that both men should set the example for the campaigns.

In his 1971 oral history, Goldwater recounted his 15-minute meeting with LBJ. “I told [Johnson] I wanted to discuss the racial problem, that I thought it would be wise not to be pushing it. Those were hot days, you know. And he agreed with me.” In a telephone conversation with his attorney general the day after sitting down with Goldwater, Johnson remembered the conversation similarly. “[Goldwater] came in, just wanted to tell me that he was a half-Jew, and that he didn’t want to do anything to contribute to any riots or disorders or bring about any violence; because his ancestry, he was aware of the problems that existed in that field, and he didn’t want to say anything that would make them any worse.”

Goldwater and Johnson made good on their pledge. Yes, the campaign got ugly—including a pro-Johnson ad touting the Alabama KKK’s endorsement of Goldwater, and the one-time airing of LBJ’s infamous “Daisy” ad, which played on the fears that Goldwater might have a hair trigger when it came to nuclear warheads, ushering in a new era of negative campaign tactics. But neither candidate bowed to the extremist elements of either end of the racial divide.

 

Goldwater would've been a terrible president, but it would've been because he was an ideologue who refused to adjust his principles to meet reality, not because he was innately a bad person.

[Jace, Extat]

3 minutes ago, Fez said:

Arguably since this news came out over the summer about a meeting he had at the White House with Johnson in the run-up to the election.

Goldwater would've been a terrible president, but it would've been because he was an ideologue who refused to adjust his principles to meet reality, not because he was innately a bad person.

Huh... I'll look into that when I have some more time.

[Boris the Blade]

18 minutes ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

 

HS sophomore gets kicked out of class for opposing Clinton 

 

http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2016/10/student_tossed_from_homeroom_for_supporting_trump.html

Link isn't working.

[the Greenleif Stark]

17 minutes ago, Daniel Plainview said:

Link isn't working.

seems to be working now