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Theon's marriage options (pre AGOT)


Oakhearts head

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A commonly held opinion is that Eddard Stark's plan for Theon Greyjoy was for him to ultimately inherit lordship of Pyke and the Iron Islands after Balon passed away. In theory, this would form a strong alliance with a region that has a strong navy and make use of a region which has historically been quarrelsome. Whether this would have worked or not is another thread entirely. I tend to think it would have worked under the right circumstances.

Regardless, even if you disagree with the above, I am interested in what Theon's marriage options were. At one point, Theon actually muses on marrying Sansa (which was probably wishful thinking on his part) but if we assume Ned's plan was for Theon to eventually return to Pyke, it is certainly feasible Ned would have tried to arrange a marriage to a daughter from a powerful Northern or mainland house.

So, a few questions:

A. In your opinion, what plans did Ned have for Theon in regards to a betrothal?

B. As a hypothetical Lord of Pyke, who would have been a realistic match for Theon?


To some extent, the Iron Islands are looked down upon by the rest of Westeros. I do wonder of this could hamper negotiations between Theon and prominent mainland houses, and perhaps force him to marry within the Islands.

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I doubt Eddard planned anything of the sort. 

a- He's not the kind to marry his children like sheep. He seem to be quite reluctant in marrying Sansa to Joffrey let alone to Theon
b- He loved his daughters and he didn't trust the Greyjoys. The Northerners had no fleet and if Arya needed help Eddard would not be able to call the banners and rescue her

There's a reason why Eddard took Arya to Westeros capital city and he did so to try and sort a good marriage for her. Maybe he could seal a marriage deal between Renly and her. Alternatively he could use the Baratheon brothers influence to have her marry Willas. Eddard wanted a good husband for his girls who could protect them. Theon wasn't of that sort 

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I do not think he could have married into a lord paramounts family, but a family hungry for some more power or influence maybe. For example house Florent or house Yronwood. I could see one of these houses making a play to gain possible allies. Any Reachish house would really work. Also, although Eddard Stark might not marry his daughters to Theon, another Northern house is not out of the picture....Manderly, Cerwyn, Tallhart, or Karstark for example. Also, Lord Frey would have been ready. In fact, if Robb or Catlyn had pushed for marriages between Theon Greyjoy, Arya Stark, and perhaps a few others (say Edmure Tully or Harrion Karstark or Wyman Manderly) perhaps the Freys would have allowed passage and left Robb open to pursue Margaery Tyrell or Arianne Martell or (does Yohn Royce have a daughter?)

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2 hours ago, devilish said:

a- He's not the kind to marry his children like sheep. He seem to be quite reluctant in marrying Sansa to Joffrey let alone to Theon
b- He loved his daughters and he didn't trust the Greyjoys. The Northerners had no fleet and if Arya needed help Eddard would not be able to call the banners and rescue her

Probably Ned didn't plan it at the moment, but a marriage alliance between Theon and someone from the Rills (like Ryswells) would be benificial. If Ned was sure of Theon's loyality I guess he would marry Arya or Sansa to him as well. Ned loved their kids and Stark's household was kind of bubble in AGOT, but soon or later Ned would have to arrange marriages for his children. Of course, Ned was likely to pick someone descent and trustworthy for his daughters, but these marriage alliances should also benefit the North and the Stark family. If ned would decide that an alliance with Ironmen is crucial to avoid plungering of Northern territories, he would go for it and would expect from his children to do their duty.

As for Theon himself, I think he should have married  somebody from respected Ironborn families to secure the loaylity of the Ironmen. He spent to mauch time in the greenlands and a marriage with ironborn woman would help him to secure his position.

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3 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

A commonly held opinion is that Eddard Stark's plan for Theon Greyjoy was for him to ultimately inherit lordship of Pyke and the Iron Islands after Balon passed away. In theory, this would form a strong alliance with a region that has a strong navy and make use of a region which has historically been quarrelsome. Whether this would have worked or not is another thread entirely. I tend to think it would have worked under the right circumstances.

Regardless, even if you disagree with the above, I am interested in what Theon's marriage options were. At one point, Theon actually muses on marrying Sansa (which was probably wishful thinking on his part) but if we assume Ned's plan was for Theon to eventually return to Pyke, it is certainly feasible Ned would have tried to arrange a marriage to a daughter from a powerful Northern or mainland house.

So, a few questions:

A. In your opinion, what plans did Ned have for Theon in regards to a betrothal?

B. As a hypothetical Lord of Pyke, who would have been a realistic match for Theon?


To some extent, the Iron Islands are looked down upon by the rest of Westeros. I do wonder of this could hamper negotiations between Theon and prominent mainland houses, and perhaps force him to marry within the Islands.

Plenty of Mormont girls who would have done the trick

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39 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Probably Ned didn't plan it at the moment, but a marriage alliance between Theon and someone from the Rills (like Ryswells) would be benificial. If Ned was sure of Theon's loyality I guess he would marry Arya or Sansa to him as well. Ned loved their kids and Stark's household was kind of bubble in AGOT, but soon or later Ned would have to arrange marriages for his children. Of course, Ned was likely to pick someone descent and trustworthy for his daughters, but these marriage alliances should also benefit the North and the Stark family. If ned would decide that an alliance with Ironmen is crucial to avoid plungering of Northern territories, he would go for it and would expect from his children to do their duty.

As for Theon himself, I think he should have married  somebody from respected Ironborn families to secure the loaylity of the Ironmen. He spent to mauch time in the greenlands and a marriage with ironborn woman would help him to secure his position.

At the beginning of GOT Sansa/Arya are among the most powerful women in Westeros. They are the daughters of the the Lord Paramount of the North/Hand of the King + the third in line to the Lord Paramount of Riverrun (if Edmure dies, Cat inherits everything). Their grandad is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands while their cousin is the future Lord Paramount of the Vale. Sansa was promised to the crown prince, whose uncle is the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands and whose grand dad is the Lord Paramount of Westerlands. 

If you see things from a wider picture there's currently 2 Lord Paramount (Renly and Tywin) and 4 future Lord Paramount (Edmure, Willas, Sweet Robin and Tyrion) who are single. All these houses are stronger and they are more dependable then the Greyjoys. 

Considering that Theon is just a ward, who will have to work hard to have his people to accept him and who originated from one of the most hostile and poorest regions in Westeros. then why the hell would Eddard marry one of his two jewels to him? The last thing Eddard would want is for the Iron islands to rebel again and his daughter to be used as hostage to keep the rest of Westeros under control.

Marrying Theon to a strong bannermen daughter makes sense. However it doesn't make sense marrying Arya or Sansa to him. He's not good enough for the Starks. 

 

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8 minutes ago, devilish said:

He's not good enough for the Starks. 

I agree with you, there were better options for Stark girls.  My post was more about this:

3 hours ago, devilish said:

He's not the kind to marry his children like sheep. He seem to be quite reluctant in marrying Sansa to Joffrey let alone to Theon

But probably I just misunderstood you.

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13 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I agree with you, there were better options for Stark girls.  My post was more about this:

 

Eddard is a good man but he's also a man of his time. He'll probably try to find a good man for Arya and if there's a nobleman who fits that criteria, then he will give his consent even if its not the best match in terms of alliances. I cant see him doing a Hoster and marry her to Tywin for example.  

However she will have to marry somebody whose good for the family. That's why I believe he took her to KL.In my opinion he would aim for someone whose strong, kind and who would close an eye to her rather independent character. Someone who also close to the crown (or would like to be close to the crown) so she won't have to be in a situation were she will have to choose between husband and family. He'll also avoid marriage between cousins, uncles etc to avoid the so c

I believe that Eddard would push for a marriage between Arya and Renly. He know the Baratheons well and Renly seem to be another Robert - his alcohol and women issues. Renly would probably consent to that. He's pushing to have Cersei ousted and have his brother marry Margaery. Having Eddard at his side could help him on that. 

 

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6 minutes ago, devilish said:

I believe that Eddard would push for a marriage between Arya and Renly. He know the Baratheons well and Renly seem to be another Robert - his alcohol and women issues. Renly would probably consent to that. He's pushing to have Cersei ousted and have his brother marry Margaery. Having Eddard at his side could help him on that. 

Or one of Tyrells.

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35 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Or one of Tyrells.

Willas is the second choice. The Tyrells are pretty matriarchal with the likes of Olena and Margaery having more power then the typical run at the mill noble woman. Willas is also considered as a good person and his disability isn't genetic or anything. Arya will find herself at home there. 

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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Ned had any legal right to arrange a marriage for Theon.  Theon wasn't actually his adopted son, he was his ward.  Ned couldn't arrange a marriage for Theon any more than Jon Arryn could arrange a marriage for Ned or Robert.  If Ned wanted Theon to marry someone, that still would have had to have been arranged with Balon, I think, and if Theon became Lord of the Iron Islands, he would have been able to arrange his own marriage.  

I also don't think Ned had any sort of long term calculation regarding Theon's rule of the Iron Islands; it was just the simple and usual terms following a rebellion - the losing house sends a kid to be a ward/hostage to ensure good behavior in the future.  Nothing more to it than that.

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20 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

he losing house sends a kid to be a ward/hostage to ensure good behavior in the future.  Nothing more to it than that.

This is probably the best answer. If Balon was still alive I don't see why Ned would even think about marrying Theon off. If Balon had died and the war didn't happen, then maybe he would, though I suppose by then Theon would be a lord and not need to be arranged for. 

But, for shits and giggles, I think the most creative and productive marriage for him would be someone like a Redwyne or Farman or Mallister. A traditional enemy that could be made a friend. Counter intuitive and not likely in the ASoIaF world, but it's the first place my mind went. Iron Islands would probably prosper and maybe help hold back the talk of the old way. Or make it worse, who knows. 

And then hope his crazy uncles don't kill him in his sleep. 

But other than that, probably a second-tier lords daughter. I can't think of any that would be great, maybe a Manderly from the naval/shipping aspect. 

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1 hour ago, devilish said:

Willas is the second choice. The Tyrells are pretty matriarchal with the likes of Olena and Margaery having more power then the typical run at the mill noble woman. Willas is also considered as a good person and his disability isn't genetic or anything. Arya will find herself at home there. 

The Tyrells are not matriarchal nor do Olenna or Margaery have more power than the typical noble woman. 

Sansa would be more at home in the Reach than Arya ever would. Actually I think out of all the places in Westeros Arya would be more out of place in the Reach than anywhere else. 

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1 hour ago, devilish said:

The Tyrells are pretty matriarchal with the likes of Olena and Margaery having more power then the typical run at the mill noble woman.

Olena's power is more from her personality than any matriarchy. That and Mace being a little dumb. And Margaery only got real power from marrying it. 

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In Westeros, it seems customary for the Lord Paramounts to marry with their bannermen, not with Lord Paramounts from other regions. We tend to ignore this because at the time of Asoiaf there are plenty of unions ignoring this rule (because of Rickard Stark's Southron ambitions, and the alliances during Robert's Rebellion). But those were exceptions.

For instance, looking at the family trees of the world books and restricting it to the people born before the war, we have:

  • Lannister: Out of 17 marriages within the family, only two ouside the Westerlands (Rohanne Webber and Emmon Frey, both is strange circumstances and none to a Lord or heir apparent)
  • Stark: Out of 20 spouses, only 5 from outside the North (two Blackwoods, two Royces and one Rogers. Only Alysanne Blackwood was marrying a Lord or heir apparent, but she was Cregan's second wife and they met in very unusual circumstances).

Besides those, all the pre-war marriages that we know of where done within the same region: Baratheons married Estermonts, Tyrells married Redwynes and Hightowers, Tullys married Whents, Greyjoys married Harlaws,...

My whole point being that, since Eddard was a traditional man and uninterested in playing high level politics, I'm sure that he intended to marry Sansa and Arya to the sons of Northern lords.

4 hours ago, devilish said:

At the beginning of GOT Sansa/Arya are among the most powerful women in Westeros. They are the daughters of the the Lord Paramount of the North/Hand of the King + the third in line to the Lord Paramount of Riverrun (if Edmure dies, Cat inherits everything).

Well, Sansa is not that close to the succession. In the North she's the fourth in line (after Robb, Bran and Rickon) and in the Rivelrands she's the sixth (Edmure, Catelyn, Robb, Bran and Rickon). With both Edmure and Robb being young bachelors ready to marry soon, I doubt that any sensible Lord would arrange a Sansa/Arya marriage gambling on the possibility of inheriting anything.

Of course, being married to the sister or the cousin of a Lord Paramount is not a bad thing in terms of contacts and prestige. But I think that actual power is out of the equation.

3 hours ago, devilish said:

I believe that Eddard would push for a marriage between Arya and Renly.

At the begining of the books, Arya is 9 and Renly is 20. Perhaps too big a difference. Of course, such marriages are not unheard of in Westeros or in real life, but it's not the norm, andt there should be a good justification. And I don't see why such an union would be deemed necessary, since Baratheons and Starks are already good allies.

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2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The Tyrells are not matriarchal nor do Olenna or Margaery have more power than the typical noble woman. 

Sansa would be more at home in the Reach than Arya ever would. Actually I think out of all the places in Westeros Arya would be more out of place in the Reach than anywhere else. 

They are. I cant see an Olenna or a Margaery doing what they actually do if they were Freys, Lannisters, Tullys or Arryns. Can you imagine a Frey or a Tully girl doing her very best not to marry someone Walder/Hoster decided for her? Brynden was a man and he had to leave Riverrun for what he did. The Tyrells were far more open with women than most families

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35 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

 

Well, Sansa is not that close to the succession. In the North she's the fourth in line (after Robb, Bran and Rickon) and in the Rivelrands she's the sixth (Edmure, Catelyn, Robb, Bran and Rickon). With both Edmure and Robb being young bachelors ready to marry soon, I doubt that any sensible Lord would arrange a Sansa/Arya marriage gambling on the possibility of inheriting anything.

Of course, being married to the sister or the cousin of a Lord Paramount is not a bad thing in terms of contacts and prestige. But I think that actual power is out of the equation.

At the begining of the books, Arya is 9 and Renly is 20. Perhaps too big a difference. Of course, such marriages are not unheard of in Westeros or in real life, but it's not the norm, andt there should be a good justification. And I don't see why such an union would be deemed necessary, since Baratheons and Starks are already good allies.

Women in medieval nobility are rarely married for their power. In matter of fact, women with power tend to have problems marrying to people with equal power because there's a risk of their power vanishing away (hence why Henry Tudor was obsessed in having a male heir) or their lands ending up assimilated into a larger kingdom (ex Queen Isabella). Same thing will probably happen to Arrianne hence why she'll marry matriarchally to a second born or a minor Lord's son

The true power in women of that era is the alliances they can bring. If things went according to plan, Arya would have the Lord Paramount of the North as father and heir, the queen as sister, the Lord Paramount of the Vale as uncle, the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands as uncle and the Lord Paramount of the iron islands as a close friend. If her own family was in trouble, then her call for help will be heard by most of Westeros.

Age is an issue for girls not boys. By the time Arya is 13-14 (yes they married at that age), Renly would be 24. What's the big deal with that?

 

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9 minutes ago, devilish said:

They are. I cant see an Olenna or a Margaery doing what they actually do if they were Freys, Lannisters, Tullys or Arryns

I understand your point, but they actually aren't matriarchal really.  Mace is still head of House Tyrell officially and Willas is still the heir.  What Olenna does is influence from behind the scenes, but even she says her son doesn't always listen to her.  The Tyrell women engage in pretty typical noble lady activities, they just discuss politics while doing it.  I don't think Olenna was happy about Margaery marrying Joffrey, but Mace wanted it so badly she had to adapt.  The PW plans had no Tyrell men and probably none of the women save for Olenna (Redwyne) involved and was done completely back door.  So, while other astute characters may realize Olenna is the brains and the real player, her power comes through back door channels and not in any official capacity.  Margaery is definitely her grandmother's student, but even she exercises her influence within the bounds of her traditional role.  So the Tyrells are pretty typically patriarchal and the females are still traditionally limited.  I think we just get the impression of matriarchal because by comparison Mace is such a buffoon and we don't yet know what Willas's political prowess is.            

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1 hour ago, devilish said:

They are. I cant see an Olenna or a Margaery doing what they actually do if they were Freys, Lannisters, Tullys or Arryns. Can you imagine a Frey or a Tully girl doing her very best not to marry someone Walder/Hoster decided for her? Brynden was a man and he had to leave Riverrun for what he did. The Tyrells were far more open with women than most families

Olenna and Margaery manipulate the situation, that doesn't mean that they are more powerful than the typical noble woman. Margaery is definitely more powerful than a female Frey but she wouldn't be more powerful(unless queen and even than she's not wielding a lot of power as queen)than a Tully, Arryn or Stark. 

Mance is the one calling the shots, he's in charge hence Olenna telling him to stay out the war and him getting stupidly involved and she can't do anything about it but make the situation better for her family. 

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