Who have tokars?

[Jaak]

We hear that tokar is not good for people who have to work.

Do any people who work have tokars?

Not that they work in tokars, of course.

In a society without machines for textile production, clothes are relatively expensive. So, for poor, owning changes of clothes is difficult.

And yet - look at Dictator Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus.

A Senate delegation found him ploughing a field. When they told him to put on a toga, he called on his wife, Racilia, to bring his toga from his cottage.

Note - his wife, not a slave.

So - are there any free people on Slaver's Bay who work and have to work, in clothes other than tokar, but who own a tokar and can put it on for important occasions?

Also: owning a slave does not mean the Master does not work or does not have to work.

The productivity of manual labour, free or slave, is limited. It is not clear to me that a lone slave could support a freeman, his wife and several children not working.

Which means that in a household with a single slave and several free people to support, the master must needs engage in manual labour alongside his slave. And not wear a tokar while doing so.

For a slave, what's harder? Work for a master who only has one slave, and therefore has to value and appreciate the slave? Or work for a master who has a hundred slaves, and therefore can afford to neglect some... including permitting some slaves to be lazy?

How common, in the society of Slaver's Bay or Essos, are slaveowners who keep a few or a single slave, and who work along their slaves?

[Philokles]

I'm not sure Cincinnatus is the best example of a toga owning Roman who was forced to rely on his own efforts to survive, but yes they existed.

As for the tokar, I think it is more restricted to the rich than the Roman toga - which was for all citizens. That would make it unlikely that anyone would have to work if they owned one, but I suppose some may exist. Whether it is easier or not would depend on the personality of the master - if you were owned by a generous one then being in closer contact would be beneficial as he is more likely to value you, but getting away from a strict taskmaster would be a better idea. 

[Lord Vance II]

I just can't get past that his name was Cincinnatus....suppose that's where Cincinnati comes from. 

[SeanF]

The tokar is similar to the toga.

Poor and middling citizens of Rome had a plain white toga in rough wool, which they wore when going to vote, or for very special occasions.  Equestrians and Senators had togas in the finest wool, bordered with purple to denote their high status.  They wore togas more frequently than the poor, when attending the Senate, the law courts, town council meetings, religious ceremonies, the games.  They did not generally perform manual labour.

All free Ghiscari possess a tokar.  The poor and middling have plain tokars, and only wear them on special occasions.  The rich have tokars that are fringed with gold, silver, or precious stones.  They wear them frequently, because they don't perform manual labour.

There are probably a lot of free Ghiscari who own one or two slaves.  They are citizens, but would not be counted in the ranks of Good/Wise/Great Masters, who likely own hundreds of slaves apiece. 

Within Roman society, household slaves didn't have that bad a time, on the whole.  They were valuable property, which meant their masters had some vested interest in treating them fairly well, and they had a good chance of being freed.  If they were freed by a Roman citizen, they acquired Roman citizenship of their own.  Some freedmen became enormously rich and influential.  Roman laws towards slaves became progressively more humane (in the Imperial period, masters lost the right to execute slaves, or sell them into prostitution, or make them fight as gladiators).  Agricultural slaves generally had it worse.  They could rarely expect freedom, unless they were made overseers or bailiffs.  Mine and quarry slaves were basically worked to death.  They were frequently condemned criminals.

Life seems to be much harsher for slaves in Ghiscari society than it was in Rome.  The creation of the Unsullied is brutal in the extreme.  Slaves can be made to fight for entertainment, or fed to wild beasts.  Masters can execute them at will.  No doubt, there are some decent masters, and we know from the text that some slaves are treated quite well, but there seem to be fewer restraints on what a master can do than there were in Rome. 

[Jaak]

Compare USA.

I´ve seen statistics on number of slaveowners for the whole USA, but cannot find them again at the moment. But looking at just North Carolina:

http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-antebellum/5347

In 1860, there were 34 658 slaveowners in North Carolina - and, for example, 67 022 farms. Non-slaveowner free people were common, but slaveowners were also numerous.

Out of these 34 658, 6440 owned a single slave, and 9631 more had up to 4. Almost half of the slaveowners, with under 5 slaves, probably had to work.

And a good example of a middle class owner of a single slave was miss Watson - the owner of Jim from Huckleberry Finn.

For an owner of a single slave, that slave means the difference between poverty and middle class. Death of a slave is a great material and emotional loss, as is loss of a home. Actually, the value of slaves in South was about double the value of real property owned.

And escape or emancipation of the slave is also a great material and emotional loss. Whereas selling a slave down river... Like selling a home, it is an emotional loss. But at the market prices, selling a home to move elsewhere and buy another home may be considered. As may selling a slave.

[Michael Mertyns]

Quote

"The garment was a clumsy thing, a long loose shapeless sheet that had to be wound around her hips and under an arm and over a shoulder, its dangling fringes carefully layered and displayed. Wound too loose, it was like to fall off; wound too tight, it would tangle, trip, and bind. Even wound properly, the tokar required its wearer to hold it in place with the left hand. Walking in a tokar demanded small, mincing steps and exquisite balance, lest one tread upon those heavy trailing fringes. It was not a garment meant for any man who had to work. The tokar was a master’s garment, a sign of wealth and power."

-Daenerys I, A Dance with Dragons

It's possible others do have tokars, but it would certainly be expected that the quality and quantity would be dramatically reduced

[Blackfyre Bastard]

9 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

I just can't get past that his name was Cincinnatus....suppose that's where Cincinnati comes from. 

Not only that, but according to Latin pronunciation it should be read "Kinky-natus"

Guess that's where "kinky" for curly hair comes from.

[Jaak]

How easy is it to dismount a litter without getting the tokar tangled in the litter?

[StarkofWinterfell]

23 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

I just can't get past that his name was Cincinnatus....suppose that's where Cincinnati comes from. 

You're correct! Lots of English words and names come from Latin.

In Latin, Cincinattus is pronounced with a hard K as in Kin-Kinn-attus as C's had the K sound and not the S sound in Latin. Julius Caesar? More like Julia Kaesar. The Celts? More like the Kelts!

There is your lesson for the day class

[Michael Mertyns]

5 hours ago, Jaak said:

How easy is it to dismount a litter without getting the tokar tangled in the litter?

It absolutely would depend on the litter. We know a tokar requires small steps. The ease of dismount would be determined then by how much of a step it is to get out of the litter.

[the trees have eyes]

On 21/10/2016 at 9:11 PM, Michael Mertyns said:

It's possible others do have tokars, but it would certainly be expected that the quality and quantity would be dramatically reduced

The tokar is inspired by the toga but GRRM makes it a more elitist garment and both a uniform and a symbol of a privileged class.

12 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

You're correct! Lots of English words and names come from Latin.

In Latin, Cincinattus is pronounced with a hard K as in Kin-Kinn-attus as C's had the K sound and not the S sound in Latin. Julius Caesar? More like Julia Kaesar. The Celts? More like the Kelts!

There is your lesson for the day class

The Latin Caesar with a hard C like a K is of course where the German "Kaiser" and Russian Czar/Tsar are derived from.

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The Latin Caesar with a hard C like a K is of course where the German "Kaiser" and Russian Czar/Tsar are derived from.

Actually, the latter (as well as other Slavic forms, like císař or cisár, pronounced with ts) are derived from the palatalised pronunciation.

[Jaak]

Also note: the normal crew of a litter is four or more strong men.