What if Robert found about R+L=Jon Snow?

[redtree]

Meh, he'd get really furious, he'd stomped his foot and punch things but wouldn't kill him. Ned wouldn't like that and if Ned threatened Bob that it'd ruin their friendship then Robert wouldn't do anything. Tywin OTOH, would gladly poison or send assasin for Jon

[WalkinDude]

Could Robert and the Lannister's conquer the North?  Dorne nor Highgarden had any love for the Baratheon's.  If Jon Arryn is still alive, I find it very difficult he would lend his support to execute Jon and wage war on the North.  We know Baelon Greyjoy would jump at the chance to attack the North, but presumably Hoster Tully would have sided with Ned in such a conflict.

Once it's known that Jon is the son of Rhaegar, that would turn the realm upside down as every lesser house jumped at the opportunity to support Jon in hopes of being elevated.

[Tini]

4 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

 

If Robert had been something close to a just or decent man, he would have had Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane executed, right after taking the throne, for the crime of Elia and her children. Moving on Tywin may have been a matter of political prudence, or not (I sincerely doubt Robert gave much thought to matters of politics) but executing Gregor and Amory has zero potential repercussions (I'm not going to believe Tywin cared about them), yet he didn't do so.

It's far more likely @Macgregor of the North and @ravenous reader have the right of it - Robert just didn't care. His not executing Viserys and Dany is exactly the same thing. Even if he hadn't killed Jon himself, he wouldn't have bothered much if the Lannisters did it.

I totally agree - I just marvel at how decent and intelligent men like Ned Stark and Jon Arryn could be so totally blind as far as Robert Baratheon was concerned. And continue to be surprised by him decades later. It's not as if Robert had changed - quite the contrary. All his least likeable traits endured.

[Tini]

2 hours ago, WalkinDude said:

Could Robert and the Lannister's conquer the North?  Dorne nor Highgarden had any love for the Baratheon's.  If Jon Arryn is still alive, I find it very difficult he would lend his support to execute Jon and wage war on the North.  We know Baelon Greyjoy would jump at the chance to attack the North, but presumably Hoster Tully would have sided with Ned in such a conflict.

Once it's known that Jon is the son of Rhaegar, that would turn the realm upside down as every lesser house jumped at the opportunity to support Jon in hopes of being elevated.

No, they wouldn't. Not for a bastard - not even for a noble-born bastard. And they would've had no reason to see Jon differently. Rhaegar was married, and would've needed his father's permission for another marriage. A permission that he didn't have - as far as we know.

Then there is the same problem that Robb Stark saw -  a baby cannot lead armies in battle.  The lords might've preferred the battle-hardened Robert. And later, when Jon was old enough - who would've believed Jon Snow anything but Ned Stark's bastard by that time? It would've been considered a Stark attempt to usurp the Iron Throne. And it would've failed.

Jon Arryn would do what he feels his duty to do. And that duty might have included waging war on the North, or killing a baby - if he thought that baby a threat to the kingdom. Not for hatred but to keep the peace. He didn't kill any of Robert's bastards, they were no threat to the succession. But Rhaegar's last surviving child? 

I think Jon Arryn would've strongly advised Ned to take the boy home, and raise him as his own bastard.

Maybe he did advise. A good reason for Ned to name the boy Jon. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Rest assured, Tywin and Cersei would've seen to it, the former motivated by his vindictive sadism in relation to his nemesis Aerys, whose line he wished to utterly extinguish in their personal transgenerational vendetta; the latter whose paranoia and avaricious ambition would never have tolerated even the slightest hint of a challenge to the throne she and her children had usurped.

Yeah, I agree. No doubt one day there'd have been a stray arrow or an assassin sneaking through to finish off Jon.

44 minutes ago, Tini said:

I totally agree - I just marvel at how decent and intelligent men like Ned Stark and Jon Arryn could be so totally blind as far as Robert Baratheon was concerned. And continue to be surprised by him decades later. It's not as if Robert had changed - quite the contrary. All his least likeable traits endured.

I wondered the same things on the reread of AGOT! Although, that's a quality Ned shares with his daughter Sansa - he views people with rose coloured glasses, and expects honor from most people he meets, and is shocked when it turns out not to be so. Although with Robert I can see how he'd willing to be blind to the worst qualities of his - people generally tend to believe the best of those they love.

[Livesundersink]

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I dont think he reacted that way because he would have had Tywin as an enemy. He reacted that way because that's how he thinks. He could have said, sorry Ned this is how it is, it's better this way, or something. Robert wasn't trying to be big or scary to please Tywin. He really hated Targs  that much. 

Robert wanted Viserys and Dany dead, he was angry at Stannis for letting them slip away from Dragonstone. He also later  wanted to have them killed but Jon Arryn managed to talk him out of it and then drinking and whoring would likely have distracted him from thinking about it again.

It's confirmed that he doesn't want to cause offence to Tywin when they discuss Jon Arryn in the crypts, they talk about Robert Arryn and the offer that Tywin made to foster him. Robert will not hear any other option of fostering out of fear of offending Tywin.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Ned was preety adamant on killing the pups when he could (and they did) take care of them in WF instead, he would however, kill the direwolf pups. He's he a bad guy? No, neither is robert

- a direwolf, even in the north is dangerous, we kill dogs today for less than what nymeria did, lady was a high level risk animal in the north, let alone in KL, if she kills a child out while "playing" what then? ned reads the eulogy?

- yes, not the reason, but an animal was even less important a life in ancient times than now, bob, in spite of a moral conflict avoider, does not look to the direwolves as cute fantasy animals, nor did the vast majority of people give a crap about dogs or cats back then, it was hard being a human let alone worry about pets

- About the op, Catelyn II AGOT is the answer, ned himself does not believe bob would hurt any of his blood, any.

- yes jon had a hand on calming robert on hunting the targs post dragonstone but bob was the king, if he wanted, or truly desired it, no one would or could stop him.

3 hours ago, WalkinDude said:

Could Robert and the Lannister's conquer the North? 

Conquer? maybe not, too big... but subdue it winning a potencial war? almost for sure

[Livesundersink]

23 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Rest assured, Tywin and Cersei would've seen to it, the former motivated by his vindictive sadism in relation to his nemesis Aerys, whose line he wished to utterly extinguish in their personal transgenerational vendetta; the latter whose paranoia and avaricious ambition would never have tolerated even the slightest hint of a challenge to the throne she and her children had usurped.

Given how Cersei ordered the purge of Robert's bastards i'd say that is highly likely

[Tini]

13 minutes ago, Livesundersink said:

It's confirmed that he doesn't want to cause offence to Tywin when they discuss Jon Arryn in the crypts, they talk about Robert Arryn and the offer that Tywin made to foster him. Robert will not hear any other option of fostering out of fear of offending Tywin.

Robert B. doesn't like stress. Trying to foster out Robert Arryn against Tywin's wishes would create stress.

The only time when Robert took stress upon himself willingly was when his lazyness was interrupted by Jon Arryn's death. At which time he suddenly remembered Ned Stark in Winterfell, and decided to make Ned King's Hand.

 

[WSmith84]

3 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Ned was preety adamant on killing the pups when he could (and they did) take care of them in WF instead, he would however, kill the direwolf pups. He's he a bad guy? No, neither is robert

Ned wants to kill the pups when he thinks it's the kinder alternative to letting starve to death. Not to satisfy his wife

3 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

- a direwolf, even in the north is dangerous, we kill dogs today for less than what nymeria did, lady was a high level risk animal in the north, let alone in KL, if she kills a child out while "playing" what then? ned reads the eulogy?

- yes, not the reason, but an animal was even less important a life in ancient times than now, bob, in spite of a moral conflict avoider, does not look to the direwolves as cute fantasy animals, nor did the vast majority of people give a crap about dogs or cats back then, it was hard being a human let alone worry about pets

Again, Robert doesn't actually want Nymeria dead until Cersei demands it. He's perfectly content with it being gone. He's the king; if he doesn't want the wolves in the capital, well and good. He can demand that Ned release Lady to the wild or send her back North. Either solution would have satisfied any concerns about safety and appeased Ned. But no, Cersei wanted a dead wolf and Bob was too cowardly to fight her over it. Given Robert's later apology, he knew he should have done otherwise.

[Sir Matthis Light]

If Robert found out about Jon during the first book, i totally see him getting angry to the point of wanting Jon dead. We of course know Ned wouldn't have let this happen, so it comes down to either Ned going to war with his best friend/King and putting his family and house in jeopardy ,letting Jon go to the Wall a bit early( But I still see Robert coming after him ) or even sending him to the free cities to hide or even link up with Aunt and Uncle( This one is a stretch even to me )

If I had to pick, I think it be war with Robert. Robert wasn't even going to let Daenerys be, I totally see Cersei telling him the safety of "Their Children" was at risk, and the small council filled with Little Finger and Pycell saying this is good for the realm like they do.

[Macgregor of the North]

9 hours ago, Livesundersink said:

It's confirmed that he doesn't want to cause offence to Tywin when they discuss Jon Arryn in the crypts, they talk about Robert Arryn and the offer that Tywin made to foster him. Robert will not hear any other option of fostering out of fear of offending Tywin.

Could you tell me how this possibly confirms that Robert reacted the way he did to seeing Targaryen corpses to impress the big bad Tywin?

Lets not be silly here. Roberts hatred for Targs is confirmed as solid, he reacted that way because his hatred of Targs was a madness in him. Confirmed fact all throughout the quotes i left. 

[Macgregor of the North]

13 hours ago, Tini said:

Still, he could've had someone kill Viserys and Daenerys. Instead he got talked out of it. (And he would've had someone else do it - Stannis, for example. I don't think he had the guts to do it himself.) Neither Viserys nor Daenerys were related to a girl he claimed to love.

Unless Ned were stupid enough to tell him that Lyanna preferred Rhaegar, and that Jon was legitimate, Jon would've been safe from Robert.

I never said he would personally kill Dany, Viserys or Jon himself. I never actually said he would personally kill Jon. I said it would be very ugly between Ned and Robert. 

It would come to war between the two because as my earlier quotes show, Roberts hatred of Targaryens was a madness in him. 

The outcome of which is uncertain but I can't see the two men reasoning that one out, never. That's too sore a point for Robert to bear and the Lannisters would be in his ear the entire time provoking him that a Targaryen still lives mocking him with every breath. 

[Livesundersink]

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Could you tell me how this possibly confirms that Robert reacted the way he did to seeing Targaryen corpses to impress the big bad Tywin?

Lets not be silly here. Roberts hatred for Targs is confirmed as solid, he reacted that way because his hatred of Targs was a madness in him. Confirmed fact all throughout the quotes i left. 

It doesn't. But years later after his marriage to Cersei and with the IT in serious debt he has become dependant on Tywin to keep the realm running smoothly ie all of the positions filled by the Lannisters at King's Landing and elsewhere. He is also blind and ignorant of their true intentions of slowly seizing power.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Livesundersink said:

It doesn't. But years later after his marriage to Cersei and with the IT in serious debt he has become dependant on Tywin to keep the realm running smoothly ie all of the positions filled by the Lannisters at King's Landing and elsewhere. He is also blind and ignorant of their true intentions of slowly seizing power.

Yes, but my conversation with the other poster was debating whether Robert reacted that way at seeing the Targ bodies because he was a). That way himself, that's how he is. Which is My personal opinion.

Or, b). He did it to go along with and impress Tywin. The view I was challenging as I believe it's false. Tywin wouldn't have even looked upon them as Dragonspawn, he merely saw a chance to prove fealty and it wouldn't have mattered if they were dragonspawn or kraken spawn.

Roberts choice of words reflect his own inner feelings, he isn't trying to impress or gain favour with anyone, he simply sees dead Targ babies as 'just Dragonspawn'. 

Yup, he's that savage, but we know his feelings towards Targaryens.

 

[Livesundersink]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yes, but my conversation with the other poster was debating whether Robert reacted that way at seeing the Targ bodies because he was a). That way himself, that's how he is. Which is My personal opinion.

Or, b). He did it to go along with and impress Tywin. The view I was challenging as I believe it's false. Tywin wouldn't have even looked upon them as Dragonspawn, he merely saw a chance to prove fealty and it wouldn't have mattered if they were dragonspawn or kraken spawn.

Roberts choice of words reflect his own inner feelings, he isn't trying to impress or gain favour with anyone, he simply sees dead Targ babies as 'just Dragonspawn'. 

Yup, he's that savage, but we know his feelings towards Targaryens.

 

I'd say the 1st, at the time he had no real reason to want to impress Tywin at the time, he would have still been hung up on getting Lyanna back.

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, Livesundersink said:

I'd say the 1st, at the time he had no real reason to want to impress Tywin at the time, he would have still been hung up on getting Lyanna back.

Yup, agreed. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

12 hours ago, Tini said:

Robert B. doesn't like stress. Trying to foster out Robert Arryn against Tywin's wishes would create stress.

The only time when Robert took stress upon himself willingly was when his lazyness was interrupted by Jon Arryn's death. At which time he suddenly remembered Ned Stark in Winterfell, and decided to make Ned King's Hand.

 

I agree with you. Robert hates to deal with unpleasant things. He would be super mad at Ned and their friendship would be over, but I don't think he would start a war just to get rid of Jon. Likely Robert would insist that Jon is sent to the Wall, where nobody would find out about his identity, and will try to forget about it asap.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

10 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Ned wants to kill the pups when he thinks it's the kinder alternative to letting starve to death. Not to satisfy his wife

Again, Robert doesn't actually want Nymeria dead until Cersei demands it. He's perfectly content with it being gone. He's the king; if he doesn't want the wolves in the capital, well and good. He can demand that Ned release Lady to the wild or send her back North. Either solution would have satisfied any concerns about safety and appeased Ned. But no, Cersei wanted a dead wolf and Bob was too cowardly to fight her over it. Given Robert's later apology, he knew he should have done otherwise.

- Ned knew he could take care of them in WF (if not he wouldn't accept jon's offer), and yet chose to kill them... not much kinder than bob, just humans not caring about wild animals (like today, even more centuries ago when we lived till 30 per average)

- letting a direwolf into the wild south of the wall is almost "killing" a bunch of folks and even more cadle wsmith, a direwolf was "in reality" a wild animal easily killed with no after thought by 99% of people... it serves to show bob's lack of moral conflict strenght, but it isn't a heinous crime, it's just a wild animal that the reader likes only on a "fantasy protafonist pet" stand point

- i'm not disputing bob's lack of moral fortitude, that said ned does not believe he would hurt any of his blood (catelyn II), dany and vys would die if bob truly wanted it, jon arryn couldn't do jack, and dany's agot hunt order is justified in a protector of the realm pov imo

[Tini]

6 hours ago, Livesundersink said:

It doesn't. But years later after his marriage to Cersei and with the IT in serious debt he has become dependant on Tywin to keep the realm running smoothly ie all of the positions filled by the Lannisters at King's Landing and elsewhere. He is also blind and ignorant of their true intentions of slowly seizing power.

No, he wasn't quite that blind, or ignorant of their intentions. But opposing the Lannister meant trouble at home. Cersei would badger him until he did what the Lannisters wanted, and he chose to go along just to shut her up. But only up to a point: Ned Stark certainly wasn't the Lannister pick for King's Hand.