The COTF Master Plan: Part 1

[Red Man Racey]

22 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

OK we have different definitions of evidence, that's fine, moving on.

You're making an assumption there that there are ancient wierwoods north of the wall. If you look at the size of the trees, the ones at High Heart were freaking huge and may have been the oldest ones. In fact the Isle of Faces which you used as another example is specifically created at the signing of the pact, which was post-High Heart.

And as for their powers, we have no idea if they have gotten weaker over time. I doubt it. I predict they will bring down the Wall with a massive earthquake for one. Just because they haven't used their powers in an obvious way recently doesn't mean they lost power.

Are you saying that the weirwoods were planted on the Isle of Faces at the signing of the pact? Or that their memory/influence couldn't extend further back in time than the pact since that's when they were given faces?

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

You're making an assumption there that there are ancient wierwoods north of the wall. If you look at the size of the trees, the ones at High Heart were freaking huge and may have been the oldest ones. In fact the Isle of Faces which you used as another example is specifically created at the signing of the pact, which was post-High Heart.

Didn't Jon (or someone) see one at Whitetree north of the wall that was humongous?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

8 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

Are you saying that the weirwoods were planted on the Isle of Faces at the signing of the pact? Or that their memory/influence couldn't extend further back in time than the pact since that's when they were given faces?

I think if I'm right about the rest of this tree stuff, then "giving the trees faces so the gods could witness the pact" may be coded language for creating a fresh new weirnet with a new group of greenseers. And also according to my theory regarding the wierwoods (which could be wrong) I think a weirwood cannot exist without a greenseer. So I don't think you can plant random wierwoods and then add the greenseer later. I'm not sure what the mechanic is exactly, but my guess would be that they either turn regular trees into wierwoods, or the wierwoods somehow grow out of the body of the greenseer, like they have to swallow an acorn or something crazy like that.

Regardless of what happened exactly it is certainly ambiguous. But I think the general theme of stories from the age of heroes is that they have some truth but are over simplified and often incorrect or misleading versions of history. I could be wrong though.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Didn't Jon (or someone) see one at Whitetree north of the wall that was humongous?

Yes, the tree at Whitetree is allegedly "8 feet wide" which is pretty big. By comparison, some of the stumps at High Heart are described by Arya as wide enough to use as a bed. We don't know how wide that is exactly, but I would assume at least 5 or 6 feet. But considering the tree at Whitetree is still alive and the trees at High Heart were cut down thousands of years ago, I'm guessing they are older. I would not be surprised at all if Whitetree was "planted" after the pact.

[NorthernXY]

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Well I think you are making a few assumptions there. I disagree with the whole concept of creating a mythical balance between ice and fire. That said, I do think the COTF created the Valyrians and dragons and the Others coinciding with the Long Night. I'll elaborate more in part 2, but I think the COTF used the red comet to destroy one of the 2 moons to cause the long night. There is at least something special about the comet as some characters seem to think it means dragons are coming, and old Nan can smell it, which is physically impossible.

Sticking with math (and physics), for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

If they did destroy a 2nd moon my theory still holds, though it might have been a white comet because of the sword Dawn (and a black moon).  I don't think the comet means dragons are coming, but an end to dragons and Others.  Dragons existed before the Valyrians, and there is talk about the seasons once being normal; GRRM has stated the season length is supernatural.  The creation of the Others (via help of a comet and/or moon) threw off the balance that is necessary for life.  The Long Night was the result of the creation of Others and brought dragons into the world as well. If the people of Planetos were used to normal seasons, then a winter that lasted only a couple years like the ones Planetos occasionally gets, and not a generation like stated, would have seemed like forever. 

The moon theory is the source of dragons, the 2nd moon is where we first learned where dragons possibly came from.  Doreah told there was a 2nd moon that was an egg and it wandered too close to the Sun, it cracked, and out poured dragons that drank fire from the Sun.  How can the creation of the Others (ice) and the creation of dragons (fire) be completely separate when they came from the same event?  How can they be opposites and not be related to balance?  How can the unbalancing of seasons have nothing to do with the creation of their corporeal extremes?

This second comet is the chance to bring balance, to restore the seasons, and finally end the Others and dragons.  The comet sling-shotted around the Sun and is unknowingly noticed by Barristan "A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear."  If the first comet brought unbalance, the second is meant to restore it.

 

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The timing would be difficult for a single person to start the fire and then get to Bran's room at the right moment. Yes, you could try to start a small fire and hope it grows into a big fire and get across the castle in time without running into guards, but it would be much easier to have a different person start the fire as you wait outside the room. We don't have enough info to say for sure what happened but I would bet on there being a second person involved. But yes it is totally possible there was only one person.

We do have enough info. There was no captain of guards, and most of the experienced guards were gone with Ned Stark. There was no master of horse. It was mostly inexperienced men without someone being in charge over them, and thus completely disorganized. The guy hid in the stables for 8 days without being discovered. And there is actually some amount of time between the outbreak of the fire and the arrival of the assassin, as Catelyn watches the library go up in smoke from the window for a while.

And Cat cannot imo even be blamed for the disorganisation, because those replacements of Jory and Harwin's father should have been decided on already before Bran fell. And after the fall, it's nonsense from anyone to expect Cat to perform such duties, when it's obvious for close to a fortnight she is in no state to do anything else but sit with Bran. If a child of 8 ends up in a hospital and in coma, we don't expect a mother to run the business of her husband either while he's away on a business trip. 

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yes, the tree at Whitetree is allegedly "8 feet wide" which is pretty big. By comparison, some of the stumps at High Heart are described by Arya as wide enough to use as a bed. We don't know how wide that is exactly, but I would assume at least 5 or 6 feet. But considering the tree at Whitetree is still alive and the trees at High Heart were cut down thousands of years ago, I'm guessing they are older. I would not be surprised at all if Whitetree was "planted" after the pact.

You're assuming a lot of things here. If having ancient trees North of the Wall happened to fit your theory, I bet you could come up with a vague but plausible reason whey they do exist.

[Makk]

I have only read the first post. I have problems with this theory mainly because it disregards the entire Age of Heroes where the children of the forest fought alongside the first men to defeat the Others. Now granted that the known history is deliberately very unreliable, but there has been so much lore built up (far too much imo) around that including the long night, last hero, battle for dawn, construction of the wall etc that it will be awfully hard to not only throw away but to somehow explain to the reader why and how everything they have been told was a misdirection and then explain how these things actually happened.

I'm not saying the CotF don't have their own motivations or that they harbor any goodwill towards the Andals, But I Simply don't believe there is any chance that the Children of the Forest have any significant level of control over the Others.

As an aside, I don't believe the CotF are the Old Gods. Some of them may have become one with the old gods. The Stark direwolves are of the old gods, not the CotF. The CotF do not control and did not send them.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

We do have enough info. There was no captain of guards, and most of the experienced guards were gone with Ned Stark. There was no master of horse. It was mostly inexperienced men without someone being in charge over them, and thus completely disorganized. The guy hid in the stables for 8 days without being discovered. And there is actually some amount of time between the outbreak of the fire and the arrival of the assassin, as Catelyn watches the library go up in smoke from the window for a while.

And Cat cannot imo even be blamed for the disorganisation, because those replacements of Jory and Harwin's father should have been decided on already before Bran fell. And after the fall, it's nonsense from anyone to expect Cat to perform such duties, when it's obvious for close to a fortnight she is in no state to do anything else but sit with Bran. If a child of 8 ends up in a hospital and in coma, we don't expect a mother to run the business of her husband either while he's away on a business trip. 

And there could have been an accomplice.  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

You're assuming a lot of things here. If having ancient trees North of the Wall happened to fit your theory, I bet you could come up with a vague but plausible reason whey they do exist.

I looked up 100% of the info we have on weirwoods when coming up with my theory. If we had different info I might have a different theory, but I base my theory on the info we actually have, like a reasonable person. I'm not assuming anything. I'm saying for the areas of the theory where we simply lack enough info to have definitive conclusions, there are, at a minimum, plausible explanations for the things we do know that would be compatible with my theory. What more do you want from me? None of this shit is covered in tinfoil.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I looked up 100% of the info we have on weirwoods when coming up with my theory. If we had different info I might have a different theory, but I base my theory on the info we actually have, like a reasonable person. I'm not assuming anything. I'm saying for the areas of the theory where we simply lack enough info to have definitive conclusions, there are, at a minimum, plausible explanations for the things we do know that would be compatible with my theory. What more do you want from me? None of this shit is covered in tinfoil.

There is a taco wagon near my office that sells shit covered in tinfoil.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

56 minutes ago, Makk said:

I have only read the first post. I have problems with this theory mainly because it disregards the entire Age of Heroes where the children of the forest fought alongside the first men to defeat the Others. Now granted that the known history is deliberately very unreliable, but there has been so much lore built up (far too much imo) around that including the long night, last hero, battle for dawn, construction of the wall etc that it will be awfully hard to not only throw away but to somehow explain to the reader why and how everything they have been told was a misdirection and then explain how these things actually happened.

I'm not saying the CotF don't have their own motivations or that they harbor any goodwill towards the Andals, But I Simply don't believe there is any chance that the Children of the Forest have any significant level of control over the Others.

As an aside, I don't believe the CotF are the Old Gods. Some of them may have become one with the old gods. The Stark direwolves are of the old gods, not the CotF. The CotF do not control and did not send them.

I'm not trying to be rude, but to make the best analogy I can, you sound like a kid who still believes in Santa (spoiler!). Like you said, history has been made deliberately unreliable for some reason. The ridiculous childish story we (and Bran) are told is that the EVIL OTHERS (spooky) came to kill everybody with a bunch of zombies, and it was really dark and cold. Then the COTF saved the fucking day! They helped form the Night's Watch and together they defeated the EVIL OTHERS and we were saved oh my god! Bullshit. Just. Bullshit. Santa isn't real. There is no reason to trust this story. The fact that the POV characters in a GRRM story think it's true is kind of evidence that it is false, since it's important. The bad guys are literally called "The Others". What if GRRM wrote a story where everyone was white and then a bunch of black people attacked from the north and all the characters assume they are demons? But then on the other side of the world they invent nuclear weapons and you think "Phew, just in time to kill those black people." That is basically the plot of asoiaf. GRRM is tricking the reader into rooting for war and religious extremism when peace is the correct answer.

And you may not believe the COTF are the Old Gods, but according to Jojen, the children themselves believe that the weirwoods are the Old Gods and that when greenseers die they join the godhood. And my argument was that Jojen is half right, and the greenseers never die but do join the godhood.

[Gertrude]

20 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I looked up 100% of the info we have on weirwoods when coming up with my theory. If we had different info I might have a different theory, but I base my theory on the info we actually have, like a reasonable person. I'm not assuming anything. I'm saying for the areas of the theory where we simply lack enough info to have definitive conclusions, there are, at a minimum, plausible explanations for the things we do know that would be compatible with my theory. What more do you want from me? None of this shit is covered in tinfoil.

What are the growth rates of weirwoods? How long does it take for a tree to gain a girth of 8 ft.? We don't know. You have no problem inserting other things we don't know about the story into your theory, but your weirwood evidence is rock-solid? This is what I mean about making assumption to fit your theory. You have zero problem adding in things without textual evidence like 'the assassin had an accomplice' or 'the CotF didn't fight back sooner because they didn't have time-travel yet', but you go straight to the books for a point you think you can back up. You say you are approaching this like a reasonable person, but this is not reasonable behavior. I think you have a theory that came to you half-formed that you really, really like and are not looking at it critically. (I'm not calling you unreasonable, just saying that in this instance, you're having a hard time being critical about your baby)

I think a good portion of the people think that there is more going on with the CotF than meets the eye. They have their own agenda and are not the resevoir of goodness and salvation a lesser story might feed us. The Others have their own agenda as well and AA isn't the magical savior everyone wants him to be. There are going to be some dark surprises in store for us, and it's fun to speculate. However, I also don't think any surprises we get are going to be totally out of the blue or deus ex machina. The time-traveling, puppet-master CotF would be so out of the blue and it would feel out of place in this story. The things that have been revealed so far have been surprises, but surprises that we all facepalm for not seeing beforehand. It fits in the story and hold up under re-reads.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

What are the growth rates of weirwoods? How long does it take for a tree to gain a girth of 8 ft.? We don't know. You have no problem inserting other things we don't know about the story into your theory, but your weirwood evidence is rock-solid? This is what I mean about making assumption to fit your theory. You have zero problem adding in things without textual evidence like 'the assassin had an accomplice' or 'the CotF didn't fight back sooner because they didn't have time-travel yet', but you go straight to the books for a point you think you can back up. You say you are approaching this like a reasonable person, but this is not reasonable behavior. I think you have a theory that came to you half-formed that you really, really like and are not looking at it critically. (I'm not calling you unreasonable, just saying that in this instance, you're having a hard time being critical about your baby)

I think a good portion of the people think that there is more going on with the CotF than meets the eye. They have their own agenda and are not the resevoir of goodness and salvation a lesser story might feed us. The Others have their own agenda as well and AA isn't the magical savior everyone wants him to be. There are going to be some dark surprises in store for us, and it's fun to speculate. However, I also don't think any surprises we get are going to be totally out of the blue or deus ex machina. The time-traveling, puppet-master CotF would be so out of the blue and it would feel out of place in this story. The things that have been revealed so far have been surprises, but surprises that we all facepalm for not seeing beforehand. It fits in the story and hold up under re-reads.

I'm not assuming any of those things, though. I'm just providing explanations and saying my theory is plausible when people say "Isn't your theory impossible because X?" And I'm saying no, it's not impossible because for example, such and such could be true. Or there might be some other reasonable explanation, but we lack info on that particular subject. The assassin could have had an accomplice or not. I'm not assuming one way or the other. I think it would have been easier to pull off if he did, and I think someone else left the bag of silver, because it seems off that the assassin didn't keep the silver on his person, so I'm betting there was someone else involved based on the evidence we have. I admitted I don't have a definitive answer for why the children failed against the initial invasion because we lack info, but there are plausible explanations that are compatible with my theory and I provided an example. I think I am looking at things very reasonably and critically, in my opinion. And I'm sorry if time-traveling puppet masters feels out of place to you, but that's not really much of an argument. Personally I think a story with puppet masters is way more interesting than a story about a bunch of contrived coincidences written to advance a plot.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

Sticking with math (and physics), for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

If they did destroy a 2nd moon my theory still holds, though it might have been a white comet because of the sword Dawn (and a black moon).  I don't think the comet means dragons are coming, but an end to dragons and Others.  Dragons existed before the Valyrians, and there is talk about the seasons once being normal; GRRM has stated the season length is supernatural.  The creation of the Others (via help of a comet and/or moon) threw off the balance that is necessary for life.  The Long Night was the result of the creation of Others and brought dragons into the world as well. If the people of Planetos were used to normal seasons, then a winter that lasted only a couple years like the ones Planetos occasionally gets, and not a generation like stated, would have seemed like forever. 

The moon theory is the source of dragons, the 2nd moon is where we first learned where dragons possibly came from.  Doreah told there was a 2nd moon that was an egg and it wandered too close to the Sun, it cracked, and out poured dragons that drank fire from the Sun.  How can the creation of the Others (ice) and the creation of dragons (fire) be completely separate when they came from the same event?  How can they be opposites and not be related to balance?  How can the unbalancing of seasons have nothing to do with the creation of their corporeal extremes?

This second comet is the chance to bring balance, to restore the seasons, and finally end the Others and dragons.  The comet sling-shotted around the Sun and is unknowingly noticed by Barristan "A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear."  If the first comet brought unbalance, the second is meant to restore it.

Personally, I think the Long Night itself was not really magical, and was simply the result of the dust from the destroyed moon blocking out sunlight for a generation.

[Makk]

49 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'm not trying to be rude, but to make the best analogy I can, you sound like a kid who still believes in Santa (spoiler!). Like you said, history has been made deliberately unreliable for some reason. The ridiculous childish story we (and Bran) are told is that the EVIL OTHERS (spooky) came to kill everybody with a bunch of zombies, and it was really dark and cold. Then the COTF saved the fucking day! They helped form the Night's Watch and together they defeated the EVIL OTHERS and we were saved oh my god! Bullshit. Just. Bullshit. Santa isn't real. There is no reason to trust this story. The fact that the POV characters in a GRRM story think it's true is kind of evidence that it is false, since it's important. The bad guys are literally called "The Others". What if GRRM wrote a story where everyone was white and then a bunch of black people attacked from the north and all the characters assume they are demons? But then on the other side of the world they invent nuclear weapons and you think "Phew, just in time to kill those black people." That is basically the plot of asoiaf. GRRM is tricking the reader into rooting for war and religious extremism when peace is the correct answer.

And you may not believe the COTF are the Old Gods, but according to Jojen, the children themselves believe that the weirwoods are the Old Gods and that when greenseers die they join the godhood. And my argument was that Jojen is half right, and the greenseers never die but do join the godhood.

A better analogy would be I am the type of person who believes men walked on moon (spoiler!). I don't necessarily believe the Others are "evil" (we know basically nothing about their motivations) and I certainly don't believe the CotF and humans are best buddies. But GRRM would not create so much lore that is completely contradictory. Now as I said in the post that you replied to, the history can be deliberately misleading, but it has a grain of truth to it,  or is misleading for a certain purpose and has to be believable when it is revealed to be misleading. Under your theory what is the point of everything he has has written about the age of heroes? Just to say Gotcha? That is a cheap trick which is nothing like GRRM has written so far.

If you want to come up with a theory about the CotF controlling the Others, you need to address the 4000 years of history and all that lore like the pact, the construction of the wall, the long night, the battle for dawn etc and you have not done so nor do I see how you are even going to begin. There will likely be some things we do discover about the CotF, and I certainly hope the ending doesn't involve Jon plus Dany kill the others, but your theory isn't it.

[Gertrude]

45 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And I'm sorry if time-traveling puppet masters feels out of place to you, but that's not really much of an argument. Personally I think a story with puppet masters is way more interesting than a story about a bunch of contrived coincidences written to advance a plot.

I'm not talking personal preference, I'm saying that it feels out of place within the story as written. There are many theories I don't personally believe, but I can see how they come about. It's because there is suggestions and seemingly throw-away lines in the text. I think it's a given that the CotF or BR is manipulating small things with dreams, weirwoods and skinchanging. The amount of manipulation that you are suggesting they did to create the string of events as they happened is simply, in my opinion, not supported. Sure, it's not refuted, but it's not supported. There is a difference that you seem to gloss over.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And there could have been an accomplice.  

Yes there could, but there is no evidence for that. As for the silver bag. Why the heck would the catspaw take his bag of silver into Bran's room, which could only make noise? He was undetected in the stables for 8 days, so it's entirely logical for him to reckon he could go back to the stables undetected, especially with everyone being busy to put the fire out for a while yet, and nobody even yet knowing Bran is dead (if he had managed to lure Catelyn away from Bran's room, which was his voiced intention), but he's not risking extra detection either.

As for "manipulating Cat", the man actually tried to kill her. Her testosterone kicked in though. Instead of being paralized as most people would be with a dagger against their throat and a suffocating hand over their mouth, she got angry and fought back enough to get some air, biting his hand and pushing the blade away cutting her own hands to the bone. (I kindof recognize this, in the sense that I get angry or mad when threatened, rather than immobile of fear, and actually once did chase off 2 guys in an alley kicking and shouting. They were so stunned they even apologized before they ran off. The fear is something that hits me afterwards, like a delay. And Catelyn shows similar responses in crisis situations) That man certainly did not wish to "fail". 

I don't necessarily have something against "could", but if that is the case then George would give actual hints and pinpointers to it, in at least one other chapter, and repeatedly (in threes). What you say is textual evidence is not actual textual evidence, or ignores other textual evidence, because "you don't like the explanation you got" (ironic how you then try to dismiss gertrude's skepticism as personal taste, when she actually was not talking about personal taste, but precedent on  George's style of writing and solving mystery).

I'll give an example of a possible hint to a completely different scenario with regards to Othor and Flowers as wights. Like many I thought for a long time that Othor killed Flowers as a wight, after Othor was killed by an Other as we see happen in the prologue with Waymar and Will. However, the first chapter at Craster alludes dozen of times to that body inspection chapter of Othor and Flowers. Those two chapters are definitely linked, and suggest Craster is far more involved in the demise of those two. I cannot "prove" that Craster killed one, who then ended up killing the other with hard evidence, but thrice we get axe in skull references, Craster needing a new axe and it losing its "bite", and the suggestion that Craster buried men in some secret "grave". And then in the next Craster chapter we get the "secret larder", and all the ingredients recited to make blood sausages (black pudding/black sausages), with hints of cannibalism (which actually pops up with Jon as well when refusing to eat Craster's bacon)... I cannot provide hard evidence, but Benjen and his rangers is still an unsolved mystery, except for two men who ended up dead somehow and wighted, but a strong case of actual textual hints and parallels made by George.

IIRC you proposed some scenario where one of them was killed by ravens pecking at him? It's a nice idea, but you left out a later reference to Othor's wounds and the conclusion of the NW men about the nature of those wounds. None of them think those are bird pecking wounds. They think they were both killed by axes:

They might not be CSI, but I do think those men can see the difference in the source of wounds.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

13 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think if I'm right about the rest of this tree stuff, then "giving the trees faces so the gods could witness the pact" may be coded language for creating a fresh new weirnet with a new group of greenseers. And also according to my theory regarding the wierwoods (which could be wrong) I think a weirwood cannot exist without a greenseer. So I don't think you can plant random wierwoods and then add the greenseer later. I'm not sure what the mechanic is exactly, but my guess would be that they either turn regular trees into wierwoods, or the wierwoods somehow grow out of the body of the greenseer, like they have to swallow an acorn or something crazy like that.

So, let me get this straight. The pact was signed on the Gods Isle, but there were no weirwood trees there (yet). First of all, the trees weren't carved so the gods could witness the pact, but to cement it:

Quote

From the Wiki about the pact

Faces were carved on all the trees of the island to cement the agreement, so that the gods could bear witness to the Pact, giving its name the Isle of Faces. The sacred order of Green Men was established to maintain and keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

There is a difference in use of words... Basically, the CoTF created the hearttrees so they could 'swear on their gods'

Second, the CoTF were only major 'force' in Westeros because of their magic powers, not their numbers (and not every Child was magical, see below about wargs and greenseers). They have a long lifespan, but do not reproduce as fast as men (or else the woods would have been overrun with Children, like deer without wolves to hunt them). A lot of Children have been killed in the war between the First men and the Children, do you really think they would sign a pact and then place greenseers under every tree on the Gods Eye. Remember greenseers are very rare. Only 1 in a 1000 has warg abilities, and only 1 in a 1000 wargs has greenseer abilities.
To me, it would seem like the children would then have to bury/entangle almost all of their greenseers on the Gods Eye. That doesn't sound like a pact, but like a defeat.

Third, stating things like 'there could have been an accomplice" without bringing any proof, is again similar to my sisters "fairies messed up my room". If it were in a court of law, you would lose this case. You continuously fail to bring prober evidence to the table, only quotes followed by things that could of might have happened, without any quotes supporting your conclusions.
The reason people are saying to don't bring facts to the table is because you present quotes, and then draw conclusions that have no base other then this single quote. You believe that a weirwood tree requires a greenseer to be entangled, but there is no proof for it anywhere.
You also talk about time-travel, but there is real no proof for that. What we do know is that the weirwood trees are the gods for the CoTF. Also:
 

Quote

The greenseers of the children of the forest can see through the eyes of weirwoods with carved faces. Since trees have no sense of time, the greenseer can see into the past or present when looking through the eyes of a tree. It is said that through the faces the old gods watch over the followers and bear witness to important events.

So the trees only display things that have happened or are happening, there is again no proof that the CoTF could influence people/send dreams to people living in the past. If you do have that proof, please show it to us.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

8 hours ago, Makk said:

A better analogy would be I am the type of person who believes men walked on moon (spoiler!). I don't necessarily believe the Others are "evil" (we know basically nothing about their motivations) and I certainly don't believe the CotF and humans are best buddies. But GRRM would not create so much lore that is completely contradictory. Now as I said in the post that you replied to, the history can be deliberately misleading, but it has a grain of truth to it,  or is misleading for a certain purpose and has to be believable when it is revealed to be misleading. Under your theory what is the point of everything he has has written about the age of heroes? Just to say Gotcha? That is a cheap trick which is nothing like GRRM has written so far.

If you want to come up with a theory about the CotF controlling the Others, you need to address the 4000 years of history and all that lore like the pact, the construction of the wall, the long night, the battle for dawn etc and you have not done so nor do I see how you are even going to begin. There will likely be some things we do discover about the CotF, and I certainly hope the ending doesn't involve Jon plus Dany kill the others, but your theory isn't it.

Very simple explanation. It's not to say gotcha to the reader, the lore that exists is to manipulate characters like Bran into thinking the COTF are the heroes.