Lyanna Stark's death?

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, Livesundersink said:

Robb and Jeyne never conceived a child because Jeyne's mother Sybill was secretly slipping Jeyne moon tea under the guise of it being fertility tonics and such.

The seed is strong refers to the strength of Baratheon genes, all of Robert's bastards and Shireen have strong Baratheon features. Some of them have a few features of their mothers, but most of their traits come from their fathers.

Yes, I know these things. The misappropriation of "the seed is strong" was for double entendre. Although it does apply obliquely, as fertility may be a heritable trait, just as hair color.

But the point was that in real life, it can take quite a while for a couple to conceive even when actively trying. In ASOIAF, it seems that people can recall the specific lovemaking session that resulted in conception, which means they aren't sewing those seeds terribly often. The fact that Catelyn notes Jeyne's lack of fertility after like two months means that we should expect someone like Lyanna to become pregnant in less time with similar frequency of sex. Therefore, it's very peculiar that nobody even internally asks if Lyanna bore Rhaegar a child while she was "kidnapped".

I think it's mostly an issue of narrative, though, rather than plot. We haven't seen the events first hand on the page, so there are a million perfectly good plot related reasons for the whole world's ignorance of RLJ. And we don't have access to Littlefinger's or Varys' inner monologue, so we can't even say for sure that they don't know. The POV's have to have some amount of ignorance to make good reading. 

[Notlad]

It had slipped my mind that Robert was completely blind to raising three golden haired, green eyed children for Jaime. Or maybe he wasn't blind he just turned his back on the fact because he didn't give a damn. I had also wondered why Jon Arryn never spoke with Robert discreetly about his suspicions of Cersei's adultery. They were supposedly very close. Of course this maybe a little off topic, but still touches on the question of was Robert so easily satisfied by whatever he was told or by what he had to see right under his nose? Also, why would Ashara give her child to Ned?

[punzerknacker]

1 hour ago, Notlad said:

It had slipped my mind that Robert was completely blind to raising three golden haired, green eyed children for Jaime. Or maybe he wasn't blind he just turned his back on the fact because he didn't give a damn.

I don't think it's likely a king would not give a damn about the fact he doesn't have any legitimate heirs. Even if he hated the throne so much that he didn't care who inherited it, if it became public knowledge that his wife cheated on him it would be a huge embarrassment.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

Robert has already made up his mind about what has happened to Lyanna, so he would easily accept any version of her death especially from Ned whom he trusted. We know that Robert didn't like to deal with unpleasant things, so Lyanna's death was a conclusion of the whole situation, thou tragic. But if she wouldn't have died Robert would have to decide what to do with their betrothal and the whole story with Rhaegar (whom he killed and Lyanna apparently loved), and it would be overwhelming for him.

I guess Ned could have said Lyanna died from fever or that she was already dead, when they arrived.

As for people never questioning Jon's parentage. When Robert's rebellion happened, Ned's character wasn't well known among Westerosi nobility. He was the second son and obviously used to be in the shadow of bright and fierce Brandon. And Brandon had had affairs with other women (Barba Dustin f.e.) and people probably assumed that Ned took after his brother and just accepted the fact of him having a bastard. besides that he was very young during that time. It was after the rebellion when Ned's reputation started to build up. And people who knew Ned in his late years doubted that he could father a bastard.

[Tini]

14 hours ago, cgrav said:

But the point was that in real life, it can take quite a while for a couple to conceive even when actively trying. In ASOIAF, it seems that people can recall the specific lovemaking session that resulted in conception, which means they aren't sewing those seeds terribly often. The fact that Catelyn notes Jeyne's lack of fertility after like two months means that we should expect someone like Lyanna to become pregnant in less time with similar frequency of sex. Therefore, it's very peculiar that nobody even internally asks if Lyanna bore Rhaegar a child while she was "kidnapped".

Catelyn felt time running out on them - Robb needed an heir, getting Jeyne pregnant was urgent. 2 months probably seem like an eternity to her.

And then she might look at her own experience. It seems Ned left her pregnant within less than 2 months.

And Lisa Tully got pregnant after one ill-advised encounter with Littlefinger. But Catelyn wouldn't know that. You're right, it seems that women in Westeros can say exactly when they got pregnant - and by whom (see Cersei).

[Nevets]

I think that some, possibly including Varys, have realized the suspiciousness of Jon's parentage and may suspect that he is Lyanna;s.  But there is no proof, and Ned isn't giving them anything to work with.  Refusing to state who the mother is means her existence can't be disproven.  And his raising Jon at home, at risk to his marriage, lends credence to the idea that Jon is his.

Also, given that Ned appeared content to remain up North and showed no interest in a Targaryen restoration, it is likely nobody cared enough to raise the issue.  No sense in waking a sleeping wolf (so to say) if you don't need to.  Once he became Hand, that would have changed, but he wasn't Hand very long, and those who might have known, like Varys, were supporting him, at least for the time being.  And once Jon joined the NW his chance of being used by Targ supporters would have diminished considerably. 

[Tini]

On ‎25‎.‎10‎.‎2016 at 6:22 AM, Notlad said:

It had slipped my mind that Robert was completely blind to raising three golden haired, green eyed children for Jaime. Or maybe he wasn't blind he just turned his back on the fact because he didn't give a damn. I had also wondered why Jon Arryn never spoke with Robert discreetly about his suspicions of Cersei's adultery. They were supposedly very close. Of course this maybe a little off topic, but still touches on the question of was Robert so easily satisfied by whatever he was told or by what he had to see right under his nose? Also, why would Ashara give her child to Ned?

How many of his bastards did Robert actually look at? I know that he spent some time with Mya Stone, and possibly met Edric Storm. But otherwise he took absolutely no interest in his offspring. It was Jon Arryn who looked after them (if that is the right word).  

On ‎25‎.‎10‎.‎2016 at 7:49 AM, punzerknacker said:

I don't think it's likely a king would not give a damn about the fact he doesn't have any legitimate heirs. Even if he hated the throne so much that he didn't care who inherited it, if it became public knowledge that his wife cheated on him it would be a huge embarrassment.

Sure. If he believed what he was told. Robert did not. He didn't believe Cersei cheated, he didn't believe someone else fathered her children. Anyone who would've publicy claimed his wife cheated on him, would've been deemed a traitor to the crown by him - and dealt with accordingly.

If he had ever marched in on Cersei and Jaime, though, both Cersei and Jaime would've died in that room. But he still might not have made a connection to Tommen, Myrcella and Joffrey - because that was treason on quite another scale.

[Tini]

19 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think that some, possibly including Varys, have realized the suspiciousness of Jon's parentage and may suspect that he is Lyanna;s.  But there is no proof, and Ned isn't giving them anything to work with.  Refusing to state who the mother is means her existence can't be disproven.  And his raising Jon at home, at risk to his marriage, lends credence to the idea that Jon is his.

Also, given that Ned appeared content to remain up North and showed no interest in a Targaryen restoration, it is likely nobody cared enough to raise the issue.  No sense in waking a sleeping wolf (so to say) if you don't need to.  Once he became Hand, that would have changed, but he wasn't Hand very long, and those who might have known, like Varys, were supporting him, at least for the time being.  And once Jon joined the NW his chance of being used by Targ supporters would have diminished considerably. 

Not stating who the mother would've raised suspicion. So Ned did state who the mother was: he told Robert it was Wylla from Starfall. Varys certainly got the same bit of Information - either from Ned, directly, or through Robert. Varys may not have considered it necessary to contact Starfall to check up on his story - but if he did, he would've been told that there was a servant named Wylla living there. And that Wylla was Jon's mother - as Edric Dayne told Arya, years later.

Only the people in Winterfell didn't know. But they knew Eddard Stark - they would not doubt his word that Jon was his.
The only thing that might've raised suspicion would've been any likeness to Rhaegar. But Jon inherited the Stark looks.

When Ned went to King's Landing there was nothing to be worried about - Ned had 4 sons instead of 3. He had successfully carried it off. 

Only Ned's reaction to Jon joining the NW was interesting. Until that time he had considered Jon a child, and had not made any plans for his future. Even though Jon was already old enough to get apprenticed. When Ned was appointed Hand, the decision was made for him. I wonder if he really had no plans for Jon - and how long he would've kept procrastinating before people got suspicious.