Some thoughts and a question on Wylla, and a specific choice of wording by Edric.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

We can only hope. Oh, and wait and wait and wait some more. 

Haha, at first glance your reply looked like a little patchface song or something . 

Yeah the waiting game, were all too practiced at it now. But there's nothing else for it. 

So now I'm thinking anyway that as well as Howland and Wylla, Edric Dayne may enter the fray as somebody who will carry this knowledge of Jon in the pages of the next two books.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

20 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Haha, at first glance your reply looked like a little patchface song or something . 

Yeah the waiting game, were all too practiced at it now. But there's nothing else for it. 

So now I'm thinking anyway that as well as Howland and Wylla, Edric Dayne may enter the fray as somebody who will carry this knowledge of Jon in the pages of the next two books.

Nope, nothing that cryptic from this corner, just some wishful thinking. 

I do agree Ned Dayne could play an important role in getting the word out about Jon, if/when he becomes fully apprised of the situation. He has shown himself to be mobile, which is more than we can  say for certain regarding either Howland or Wylla. Plus as the Lord of a major house, Ned will automatically have more credibility in the minds of the Westerosi nobility than either Howland or Wylla - which is not to say everyone will flock to his side and take up the Jon is the rightful king of Westeros banner, but he may be able to sway more minds than a frog-eating, mud-breathing bog-devil and/or low-born wet nurse. 

Of course, Young Griff is about to fully enter the story, and his claim supersedes Jon's...

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Nope, nothing that cryptic from this corner, just some wishful thinking. 

I do agree Ned Dayne could play an important role in getting the word out about Jon, if/when he becomes fully apprised of the situation. He has shown himself to be mobile, which is more than we can  say for certain regarding either Howland or Wylla. Plus as the Lord of a major house, Ned will automatically have more credibility in the minds of the Westerosi nobility than either Howland or Wylla - which is not to say everyone will flock to his side and take up the Jon is the rightful king of Westeros banner, but he may be able to sway more minds than a frog-eating, mud-breathing bog-devil and/or low-born wet nurse. 

Of course, Young Griff is about to fully enter the story, and his claim supersedes Jon's...

Agreed on all. 

I suppose for me it's not for the whole 'claim to the Iron throne' thing I'm really looking forward to in regards to it being out in the open, which will be cool though as it will certainly make for interesting reading, it's just the thought of it finally, after all this time, being discussed on page that Rhaegar had a child with Lyanna and his name is Jon Snow. 

And if we read it in different POV's, such as an appearance from Howland maybe, the Daynes moving things forward, and let's not forget Bran with his awesome history lessons he will give us, then the next books will be quite different that's for sure.

And it's about time too.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

19 hours ago, Tini said:

They would've had to get rid of Aerys first - which Rhaegar fully intended. Aerys would've declared it invalid - and disinherited Rhaegar. Rhaegar had a son by Elia already. Rhaegar was no longer needed.
And then we'd have to look at the marriage treaty between Elia and Rhaegar if a second wife was permissible - and under which circumstances.

If we look at examples, there are examples in the books, too, of men and women who express they cannot marry without their father's permission.

This isn't the thread to debate if Rhaegar and Lyanna married or not, or if they had; if that marriage would have been accepted both then or now by the realm. 

But lets just say I completely and fully disagree. There are a lot of hints and references in the books that hint they married. There are a lot of irl historical similarities which hint they were married. And frankly you don't include Polygamy in a story unless you intend to use it. 

But as I said not the thread. I don't want to get accused of derailing. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

19 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I had a feeling you would do this.

It doesn't name Brandon specifically.

And Were also talking about concrete evidence from the books, as in names being named etc that would show Ashara would care enough/ or not care enough, to tell Ned the location of his sister.

Your post doesn't do that I believe. It doesn't show that Ashara has no reason to tell Ned at all, in fact all that post does is push another theory of yours lol.

Also, can you quote the Barristan "fire over mud" part of the books. I don't recall the wording and would like to read it to see if that's the exact wording.

Yeah, my guess is because you are fully aware of the in text support for it having been Brandon and not Ned who she had sex with. 

I never said anything about concrete evidence, I've only ever talked about evidence. This is evidence from the text to tell us that it was the older brother whom Ashara slept with. 

With literature the threads of the story are often loose, you get hints, you piece information together and you make an educated guess, when you get to the end of the book/series of books you discover if you are correct. 

There is evidence in the books that implicated Brandon. 

To sum up, Cat thinks it might have been Ashara whom Ned had an affair with, but the timeline simply does not add up. The servants at Winterfell also gossiped that it was her who gave him Jon Snow. But he shuts it down. Cersei accuses him of having got her with child and then stolen that child. But again when we look at the time line it does not add up. Neither Cersei nor Catelyn were at the Tourney of Harrenhall. So neither has first hand knowledge. Their information is secondary. Ned Dayne says Ashara and Ned were in love, but then says Ned had a son with Wylla?? That doesn't make any sense at all. And again his information is secondary. 

Barristan was at the Tourney and was definitely watching Ashara carefully. His information implicated Brandon Stark not Ned. So we have Gossip which doesn't add up, or first hand info which fits with the characters character... ie Brandon liked shagging high born maidens and didn't care about the consequences for them. Ned is not the kind of man who would dishonour a maid in such a way and was far to shy to even speak to her. He's the kind of bloke who returns the ancestral sword, not who dips his sword on your maiden daughter. 

This is not my theory, I'm not aware of whoever first put the pieces together and presented them, I think the theory that Brandon was Ashara's lover has been around a long time. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yeah, my guess is because you are fully aware of the in text support for it having been Brandon and not Ned who she had sex with. 

I never said anything about concrete evidence, I've only ever talked about evidence. This is evidence from the text to tell us that it was the older brother whom Ashara slept with. 

With literature the threads of the story are often loose, you get hints, you piece information together and you make an educated guess, when you get to the end of the book/series of books you discover if you are correct. 

There is evidence in the books that implicated Brandon. 

To sum up, Cat thinks it might have been Ashara whom Ned had an affair with, but the timeline simply does not add up. The servants at Winterfell also gossiped that it was her who gave him Jon Snow. But he shuts it down. Cersei accuses him of having got her with child and then stolen that child. But again when we look at the time line it does not add up. Neither Cersei nor Catelyn were at the Tourney of Harrenhall. So neither has first hand knowledge. Their information is secondary. Ned Dayne says Ashara and Ned were in love, but then says Ned had a son with Wylla?? That doesn't make any sense at all. And again his information is secondary. 

Barristan was at the Tourney and was definitely watching Ashara carefully. His information implicated Brandon Stark not Ned. So we have Gossip which doesn't add up, or first hand info which fits with the characters character... ie Brandon liked shagging high born maidens and didn't care about the consequences for them. Ned is not the kind of man who would dishonour a maid in such a way and was far to shy to even speak to her. He's the kind of bloke who returns the ancestral sword, not who dips his sword on your maiden daughter. 

This is not my theory, I'm not aware of whoever first put the pieces together and presented them, I think the theory that Brandon was Ashara's lover has been around a long time. 

 

Correct, it has been around since ADWD came out and Ol' Selmy changed the game.

I even wonder if it was a newer twist GRRM wrote in, it's possible I suppose, or maybe he always knew he would throw a Brandon shaped spanner in the works. 

Thing is, for some reason, and call me cautious but even though ADWD has pulled us in this direction I am still unable it seems to 100% settle with it. But I do agree the hints in dance are quite strong even though Selmys thoughts are quite inaccurate because if Ashara jumped not longer after a stillborn that was conceived at Harrenhal was born, she would have been dead long before Ned gets there later in 283AC.

The Tourney was final quarter of 281AC.

And also, he thinks Ashara may have leapt out of grief for the man who dishonoured her. This too is strange as Brandon was killed in 282AC, quite a long time before Ned arrives and Ashara 'jumps'.

Of course the plot thickens, maybe Ashara is alive, maybe Allyria is Brandon's etc etc.

As I said, I know it's a strong case, and I'm almost there, I just need a wee bit more from the next book.

But, in regards to our topic here, even if Brandon dishonoured her at Harrenhal, the theories go that Ned stepped in to either comfort or become some kind of honourable character to soothe things, some people even go so far as to say he was willing to offer his hand in marriage to save her shame.

Whatever happened though, there is an age old warmth between Eddard and the Daynes. There is concrete evidence for that in the books. Undeniably.

So this is what I'm getting at when I say it is 100% entirely plausible that Ashara could have told Ned where to find his sister. 

I got you to believe Ned could have found out after KL, I shall also get you to see that this is possible too lol.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You are right of course that they may have not divulged the full story to him as such by now but I'm more and more certain this exchange we are discussion means something.

Edric was very clever in phrasing his oath to Arya. After carefully re-reading the scene is clear that GRRM (through little Ned) didn't want to spoil the news about Jon's parentage in such an inane conversation between two children, but maybe Edric knows some things that he isn't supposed to know (or, as you are getting convinced more and more, that is common knowledge in Starfall). I think that before GRRM scrapped the plan of the 5 years gap, Edric was supposed to become a leading figure in the roster of ASoIaF, but the later changes robbed him of a more grandiose and pivotal role. Still, I think we can expect great things from him and Starfall.

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

He is quite intimated by Arya,[...]

Intimidated, surely?

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This is evidence from the text to tell us that it was the older brother whom Ashara slept with.

I agree that it was most certainly Brandon the one who slept with Ashara instead of Ned, but rather because Brandon was the one who made contact with her and his lusty personality, and Ned was very timid and had no game. 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Still, I think we can expect great things from him and Starfall.

Agreed!

2 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Intimidated, surely?

Yup, oops haha.

2 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I agree that it was most certainly Brandon the one who slept with Ashara instead of Ned, but rather because Brandon was the one who made contact with her and his lusty personality, and Ned was very timid and had no game. 

Yup i agree everything leans toward that even though Barristans thoughts are soaked in inaccuarcy, so im not outright disputing it. But, this does not mean in any way that Ashara had no reason to tell Ned where his sister was. Infact, it opens up more avenues of possibility that she actually did have reason to.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Agreed!

Yup, oops haha.

Yup i agree everything leans toward that even though Barristans thoughts are soaked in inaccuarcy, so im not outright disputing it. But, this does not mean in any way that Ashara had no reason to tell Ned where his sister was. Infact, it opens up more avenues of possibility that she actually did have reason to.

Bolded. No, I'm not disputing that at all. I'm open to any theory or idea regarding that piece of information, as long as it makes sense (to me). In fact, the more convoluted and logical, the better . 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Bolded. No, I'm not disputing that at all. I'm open to any theory or idea regarding that piece of information, as long as it makes sense (to me). In fact, the more convoluted and logical, the better . 

Totally, I was just kind of echoing what I have been trying to point out to Weirwood Eyes. She can't quite see it yet, but I'm getting there I believe.

And I agree the more convoluted and logical the better.

[Macgregor of the North]

Just had a thought on Edric.

We know Beric is finished, so Edrics role as squire is over, unless he has one final job like return Berics bones to Blackhaven.

We know he is broken away from the Lady Stoneheart faction.

As Lord of his house, which he is fully aware that he is, wouldnt returning to Starfall be top of his list of priorities. Even higher than any other prior engagements he had in the Riverlands with the BWB. With no mentor to squire for now and the band broken up, a Lords place is with his people surely.

So, by this logic, during Winds of Winter we really should read of Edric Dayne back in Dorne at Starfall. The place that as of Edrics conversation with Arya in 299AC, Wylla was still a resident.

Will Edric tell Wylla of his meeting with the young wolfgirl Arya Stark and quiz his old Wet Nurse on all she knows of Jon Snow and what really happened.    

Sure would be interesting to read about that exchange.

[Tini]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Just had a thought on Edric.

We know Beric is finished, so Edrics role as squire is over, unless he has one final job like return Berics bones to Blackhaven.

We know he is broken away from the Lady Stoneheart faction.

As Lord of his house, which he is fully aware that he is, wouldnt returning to Starfall be top of his list of priorities. Even higher than any other prior engagements he had in the Riverlands with the BWB. With no mentor to squire for now and the band broken up, a Lords place is with his people surely.

So, by this logic, during Winds of Winter we really should read of Edric Dayne back in Dorne at Starfall. The place that as of Edrics conversation with Arya in 299AC, Wylla was still a resident.

Will Edric tell Wylla of his meeting with the young wolfgirl Arya Stark and quiz his old Wet Nurse on all she knows of Jon Snow and what really happened.    

Sure would be interesting to read about that exchange.

He was with the BWB, with Beric Dondarrion, even though he broke away from Lady Stoneheart later.  That would make him an outlaw, would it not? Going to Starfall might not be the wisest choice then, he cannot be certain of his welcome. If he'd even reach it.

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, Tini said:

He was with the BWB, with Beric Dondarrion, even though he broke away from Lady Stoneheart later.  That would make him an outlaw, would it not? Going to Starfall might not be the wisest choice then, he cannot be certain of his welcome. If he'd even reach it.

An outlaw, no not in the eyes of his own people.

He is the Lord of Starfall. I personally think there is no way in hell he gets anything other than a "welcome home Lord Edric, how fare you?".

[Tini]

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This isn't the thread to debate if Rhaegar and Lyanna married or not, or if they had; if that marriage would have been accepted both then or now by the realm. 

But lets just say I completely and fully disagree. There are a lot of hints and references in the books that hint they married. There are a lot of irl historical similarities which hint they were married. And frankly you don't include Polygamy in a story unless you intend to use it. 

But as I said not the thread. I don't want to get accused of derailing. 

I don't disagree that Rhaegar married her. I just think it would've been contested - by Aerys, by the Martells. By the Lannisters and Baratheons, of course. And at the point in time the story is now, the validity of the marriage is no longer verifiable.

But that doesn't matter: Rob legitimized Jon. That was certainly included for a reason, too. 
Rob sought to legitimze a Stark heir - he may have legitimized a Targaryen heir by chance. But now I'll stop derailing.

[Tini]

9 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

An outlaw, no not in the eyes of his own people.

He is the Lord of Starfall. I personally think there is no way in hell he gets anything other than a "welcome home Lord Edric, how fare you?".

But an outlaw in the eyes of Lannisters and Tyrells - who may be looking for him. And if Edric was gone for long enough - he may have been declared dead, and Starfall in new hands. Which reminds me: do we know who Edric Dayne's heir would be?

I agree that it would be time for Edric to return home. But he is young - he may not see it as we do.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see him next in an Arianne chapter, after he joined Aegon in Aegon's quest for the iron Throne.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

20 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

As far as Ned exiting the conversation, what would you say to the idea that, until the very moment Arya reveals she has no idea who Wylla is, Ned Dayne thought Wylla being the mother of Ned Stark's base-born son was common knowledge? Or at least common knowledge in the Dayne and Stark households. Once confronted with Arya's ignorance regarding Wylla, Ned Dayne begins to question his own knowledge, and that is why he seemingly shuts down. Because I am still not convinced Ned has been granted knowledge of all of House Dayne's secrets. Yes, he is the Lord, and yes he is a very different boy than either Tommen or Sweetrobin, but he is still just a boy. We do not know the circumstances under which he became Lord, but if the transition was an abrupt one, perhaps there was not time to fully educate him regarding all the secrets of his House? He may even have already been squired to Lord Beric when he became Lord, we simply do not know. 

I think the main reason Arya and other Stark kids didn't know because ned explicitly forbade to talk about this. And it is quite understandable that a story of Ned's assumed infidelity isn't something they'd discuss at family dinner, especially with young children. For Dayne's household this story would be kind of gossip about one servant who had an affair with a nobleman, who later left forever.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Correct, it has been around since ADWD came out and Ol' Selmy changed the game.

I even wonder if it was a newer twist GRRM wrote in, it's possible I suppose, or maybe he always knew he would throw a Brandon shaped spanner in the works. 

Thing is, for some reason, and call me cautious but even though ADWD has pulled us in this direction I am still unable it seems to 100% settle with it. But I do agree the hints in dance are quite strong even though Selmys thoughts are quite inaccurate because if Ashara jumped not longer after a stillborn that was conceived at Harrenhal was born, she would have been dead long before Ned gets there later in 283AC.

The Tourney was final quarter of 281AC.

And also, he thinks Ashara may have leapt out of grief for the man who dishonoured her. This too is strange as Brandon was killed in 282AC, quite a long time before Ned arrives and Ashara 'jumps'.

Of course the plot thickens, maybe Ashara is alive, maybe Allyria is Brandon's etc etc.

As I said, I know it's a strong case, and I'm almost there, I just need a wee bit more from the next book.

But, in regards to our topic here, even if Brandon dishonoured her at Harrenhal, the theories go that Ned stepped in to either comfort or become some kind of honourable character to soothe things, some people even go so far as to say he was willing to offer his hand in marriage to save her shame.

Whatever happened though, there is an age old warmth between Eddard and the Daynes. There is concrete evidence for that in the books. Undeniably.

So this is what I'm getting at when I say it is 100% entirely plausible that Ashara could have told Ned where to find his sister. 

I got you to believe Ned could have found out after KL, I shall also get you to see that this is possible too lol.

I think the spanner was always Brandon shaped, as I said the hints are there in earlier books, the first in fact, when Ned bitterly thinks of it all having been for Brandon. And then when Cat reflects on her dead fiance his personality starts to come through, he was a right knob head. But sexy as fuck by all accounts. Even Jaime kinda sees how he had a bit more spunk and fire than Ned. and says as much to Cat. Not my type lol, as I say prize knob head in my book. But plenty do go for that swaggering over cocky stuff. 

Yes Barristan thoughts are jumbled, imo deliberately by GRRM to maintain some doubt in the readers mind. And really I think in my own head I kinda think she's faked it. And if she faked it, then the timing may well be totally whack, I mean people would be trying to make sense of a seemingly senseless suicide, and so assigning blame to the loss of her daughter, or of her lover, or the brother, seems logical. The fact that timing wise it doesn't really make sense works with the idea that she hasn't really been so grieved that she jumped.  And the whole thing is a bit off because of that. Also do bear in mind that IF her daughter really was s/b she may have had PND and that doesn't mean you kill yourself right away, it could be that it took it's toll over the following year or so, and the loss of her brother tipped her over the edge. 

But basically I think his account of the suicide is deliberately left confusing, and that you can account for this as it is a second hand source. He was not at Starfall after all. 

I absolutely agree that we will find out it was Brandon for sure in the next book. And I agree Ned probably would have offered to marry Ashara. I used to think this was maybe why the Dayne's seem to hold him in such regard. But my mid has been changed by others on that one. 

I think that it is to do with my own theory and Darkstar. It's a bit crackpot though so I don't expect others to buy my coolaid on that one. 

I don't think it impossible that she told him, I just don't think there is anywhere near enough evidence to suggest that she did. I'd need some hints in text. Such as in Ned's chapters a thought towards her kindness, or a passing comment from someone about how he went to Starfall twice. But we have nowt. And so I'm assuming nowt. 

[Macgregor of the North]

48 minutes ago, Tini said:

But an outlaw in the eyes of Lannisters and Tyrells - who may be looking for him. And if Edric was gone for long enough - he may have been declared dead, and Starfall in new hands. Which reminds me: do we know who Edric Dayne's heir would be?

I agree that it would be time for Edric to return home. But he is young - he may not see it as we do.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see him next in an Arianne chapter, after he joined Aegon in Aegon's quest for the iron Throne.

I am assuming he meets no trouble on the road from any force that is hostile to him or his house for whatever reason.

If he was presumed dead all he would need to do would be turn up, he is the rightful Lord. Starfall is intact, not fallen or taken, we have heard nothing like that so all his people would know him and welcome him back.

Its up to GRRM though, does he keep young Edric in the field. Or does the young Lord go back to his people and his home. Time will tell for us.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Also bear in mind that Dorne is soon likely to declare for Aegon and as such his Lordship means he's obliged to rally for that cause and go against the crown (again) so his previous outlaw status is not really relivant. If he returns to Starfall and if Dorne rallies for Aegon. 

[Macgregor of the North]

12 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think the spanner was always Brandon shaped, as I said the hints are there in earlier books, the first in fact, when Ned bitterly thinks of it all having been for Brandon.

Why do you think this a hint that Brandon slept with Ashara?. Are you saying that Neds bitter twist in his mouth is because he remembers his brother sleeping with the girl he really really liked back in 281AC.

When he says "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did." Do you think he is being sarcastic, false?. You dont think theres any chance whatsoever that he is just angry that he is in this position having to deal with all this while Brandon would have relished it and taken charge, and he hates it, as we know he does. Ned can not stand that he is caught up in political intrigues and such.

Could you explain exactly what you mean in regards to this being a hint Brandon slept with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal.